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You cannot use FNP if the wound you suffer causes Instant Death.

How about if your unit (i.e.plaguebearers) are immune to Instant Death (Eternal Warriors)? Say you drop a vindicator or manticore blast on top of them. Will they still get their FNP saves?

If you want to use a multi-wound model, say they drop a vindicator blast on top of Epidemius.

This has come up multiple times already. The main thing is that not being able to take FNP for ID wounds is part of the FNP rule, not ID. The Wound is still an ID Wound, just the model doesn't suffer ID.

This will need to be FAQ'ed and/or cleared with TO/opponent.

I see both sides.

FYI... my FLGS allows FNP from ID causing wound in an EW model.

Happyjew wrote:This has come up multiple times already. The main thing is that not being able to take FNP for ID wounds is part of the FNP rule, not ID. The Wound is still an ID Wound, just the model doesn't suffer ID.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but couldn't there be another intepretation to this?

You shoot at Epidimeus with a S10 gun. He is still alive afterwards. Have you really inflicted Instant Death on him?

I agree that it needs a FAQ.

But you don't have to have actually killed the model for the wound to be considered inflicting Instant Death. The wound inflicts it, and then Eternal Warrior ignores it, but the wound still had the Instant Death attribute, simply because its strength is double the victim's toughness.

SCvodimier wrote:But you don't have to have actually killed the model for the wound to be considered inflicting Instant Death. The wound inflicts it, and then Eternal Warrior ignores it, but the wound still had the Instant Death attribute, simply because its strength is double the victim's toughness.

Not really. If you look at the rules for Instant Death more closely (on p.16), part of its requirement is "it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty." EW units aren't necessarily reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty (unless, of course, it was their last wound or they only have 1W).

IMO, as the rule doesn't mention EW like it did in 5th, RAI I believe it does allow. But just my opinion

I would say that "a model with this special rule is immune to the effects of instant death" (Pg 35) would mean that ID has zero bearing on that model and they are allowed a FNP roll.

jy2 wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:But you don't have to have actually killed the model for the wound to be considered inflicting Instant Death. The wound inflicts it, and then Eternal Warrior ignores it, but the wound still had the Instant Death attribute, simply because its strength is double the victim's toughness.

Not really. If you look at the rules for Instant Death more closely (on p.16), part of its requirement is "it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty." EW units aren't necessarily reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty (unless, of course, it was their last wound or they only have 1W).

If that is part of the requirement for Instant Death, what does Instant Death do then?

Nothing, if the model has EW.

Hmm...Intriguing, I'll have to look more closely at it when I get home

We're discussing this in our FLGS now as well and as usual there's two camps It needs to be FAQ'd or house ruled

One effect of ID is negating FNP. An EW is immune to all of its effects. Personally i think its that simple, and i will agree to all fnp rolls from EW models in my games, and i don't ever play a single model with that set of rules anyway

jy2 wrote:
Not really. If you look at the rules for Instant Death more closely (on p.16), part of its requirement is "it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty."

That is not a 'requirement' of ID, that is the *result* of ID.


It is a crime to give someone deadly poison.

Bob gives you deadly poison

You are a freak of nature, and are immune to that poison.

It is still deadly poison, Bob still goes to jail.

"Deadly" is a description of the poison, not a description of what it does to you.

Instant Death" is a descriptor of the type of wound, what it actually accomplishes doesn't change what it is.

Yep, the ignores instant death of EW means that no shot that hits it is an instant death hit, hence FNP can be taken against it.

No, it means that you don't suffer the effects of Instant Death. All Instant Death does is set your Wounds to 0 and remove you as a casualty. FNP not being taken is part of the FNP special rule, NOT Instant Death.

coredump wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Not really. If you look at the rules for Instant Death more closely (on p.16), part of its requirement is "it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty."

That is not a 'requirement' of ID, that is the *result* of ID.


It is a crime to give someone deadly poison.

Bob gives you deadly poison

You are a freak of nature, and are immune to that poison.

It is still deadly poison, Bob still goes to jail.

"Deadly" is a description of the poison, not a description of what it does to you.

Instant Death" is a descriptor of the type of wound, what it actually accomplishes doesn't change what it is.

But the rule is:

p. 16 - "(1) If a model suffers an unsaved Wound form an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), (2) it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty."

You're just taking into consideration #1. Wouldn't you also have to take into consideration #2?

That is, if I am not removed as a casualty after getting hit by a weapon 2x my Toughness, then it isn't Instant Death to me?

Yeah, you can't ignore just part of the ID rules. You ignore the whole thing, so it doesn't happen and as such the rule where ID ignores FnP must also be ignored.

Being removed as a casualty is the effect. Just because you are immune to the effects of ID (removed as a casualty) does not mean the wound was double your toughness.

Again not taking FNP is not part of ID, it is part of a completely different rule, FNP.

BTW, FYI 5E FNP explicitly says that Eternal Warrior doesn't prevent Instant Death. However, they took that out in 6E.

If they had included "It also negates any FNP rolls as described under the FNP USR" then everyone would be happy it was one of its effects right?

SCvodimier wrote:But you don't have to have actually killed the model for the wound to be considered inflicting Instant Death. The wound inflicts it, and then Eternal Warrior ignores it, but the wound still had the Instant Death attribute, simply because its strength is double the victim's toughness.

I agree with this (though it will cause me no end of amusement if it's FAQ'd the other way)

So the EW model is immune to the effects of Instant Death..
...but their FNP roll isn't.

grendel083 wrote:So the EW model is immune to the effects of Instant Death..
...but their FNP roll isn't.

Let's examine the rules for FNP. p. 35 - "Note that FNP rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death."

However, what is Instant Death? Do the rules for FNP tell you what ID is? No. For that you actually have to refer to the rules for ID itself on p.16.

So then the rules for ID says that if the attack is 2x your Toughness (or if the attack has the ID special rule), then you remove your model as a casualty after an unsaved wound. However, if your model is still standing after getting hit by an Instant Death attack, haven't you have just contradicted the rules for Instant Death? Thus, it isn't Instant Death to you?

jy2 wrote:
But the rule is:

p. 16 - "(1) If a model suffers an unsaved Wound form an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), (2) it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty."

You're just taking into consideration #1. Wouldn't you also have to take into consideration #2?

That is, if I am not removed as a casualty after getting hit by a weapon 2x my Toughness, then it isn't Instant Death to me?

No. 1) is the Cause that invokes the ID rule. 2) is the EFFECT of the ID rule. If you consider it a requirement then ID has no function whatsover.

Ignoring FNP due to ID is a restriction on FNP, it is NOT a component of ID

grendel083 wrote:So the EW model is immune to the effects of Instant Death..
...but their FNP roll isn't.

That is because Instant Death's effects only set the models wounds to 0 and EW does not mention that they get a FNP save, so we look at what FNP says:

FNP states "Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death." P.35

The Wound Inflicts Instant Death, model fais its save, Model has EW so he is immune to being set to 0 Wounds because of the Instant Death Rule, and simply loses just one wound. The Wound still Inflicted Instant Death, so Feel No Pain can not be taken against this wound.

DeathReaper wrote:

grendel083 wrote:So the EW model is immune to the effects of Instant Death..
...but their FNP roll isn't.

That is because Instant Death's effects only set the models wounds to 0 and EW does not mention that they get a FNP save, so we look at what FNP says:

FNP states "Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death." P.35

The Wound Inflicts Instant Death, model fais its save, Model has EW so he is immune to being set to 0 Wounds because of the Instant Death Rule, and simply loses just one wound. The Wound still Inflicted Instant Death, so Feel No Pain can not be taken against this wound.

Right, so the wound inflicts Instant Death, doesn't matter if the model is effected by it or not.

jy2 wrote:

grendel083 wrote:So the EW model is immune to the effects of Instant Death..
...but their FNP roll isn't.

Let's examine the rules for FNP. p. 35 - "Note that FNP rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death."

However, what is Instant Death? Do the rules for FNP tell you what ID is? No. For that you actually have to refer to the rules for ID itself on p.16.

So then the rules for ID says that if the attack is 2x your Toughness (or if the attack has the ID special rule), then you remove your model as a casualty after an unsaved wound.

So Epidemius has T5 and gets hit by a Vindicator blast. He suffers a wound that, according to the rules, is an ID wound.
EW allows him to not suffer the effects of the ID wound. It's still an ID wound as EW doesn't change the type of wound.
We look at FnP. FnP is not allowed to be taken for ID wounds. We still have an ID wound, we just will not suffer the effects of it.

However, if your model is still standing after getting hit by an Instant Death attack, haven't you have just contradicted the rules for Instant Death? Thus, it isn't Instant Death to you?

EW ignores the effects of an ID wound. If being sent to 0W and removed is a requirement for ID, you don't ignore it.

I'm sure this has come up before.
This is one thing that definitely needs FAQd.

Testify wrote:I'm sure this has come up before.
This is one thing that definitely needs FAQd.

Only if you do not read/Ignore what the RAW say.

Doesnt EW say "ignore the EFFECTS of ID" and denying FNP is one of the effects of ID, so isnt this one cut and dry?