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robzidious wrote:He has a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase provided he can do so within 3" of the counter and not within 1" of an enemy model.

So you're saving the unit?

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:He has a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase provided he can do so within 3" of the counter and not within 1" of an enemy model.

So you're saving the unit?

Nope.. The unit has a separate rule associate with it which specifically points out that once a unit with reanimation protocols is removed completely, they cannot roll to get back up at the end of phase. So, if a unit of warriors with a lord is swept, remove the unit and all counters. The lord gets swept too, however he gets an EL counter placed where his model was. Consolidate the unit that won the combat (a clever opponent will do so in such a manner as to prevent the character from coming back with EL by moving his models so that the character can't get back up within 3" of the counter without being within 1" of an enemy model). If the character with the EL counter can get back up (i.e. no enemy units in the area as specified above) he makes his roll and has a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase.

The rule associated with SA and EL are two completely separate rules entirely and independent of one another.

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:He has a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase provided he can do so within 3" of the counter and not within 1" of an enemy model.

So you're saving the unit?

Nope.. The unit has a separate rule associate with it which specifically points out that once a unit with reanimation protocols is removed completely, they cannot roll to get back up at the end of phase. So, if a unit of warriors with a lord is swept, remove the unit and all counters. The lord gets swept too, however he gets an EL counter placed where his model was. Consolidate the unit that won the combat (a clever opponent will do so in such a manner as to prevent the character from coming back with EL by moving his models so that the character can't get back up within 3" of the counter without being within 1" of an enemy model). If the character with the EL counter can get back up (i.e. no enemy units in the area as specified above) he makes his roll and has a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase.

The rule associated with SA and EL are two completely separate rules entirely and independent of one another.

Except they're not. SA destroys the unit.
You're saving the unit by bringing it back with the EL model.

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:He has a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase provided he can do so within 3" of the counter and not within 1" of an enemy model.

So you're saving the unit?

Nope.. The unit has a separate rule associate with it which specifically points out that once a unit with reanimation protocols is removed completely, they cannot roll to get back up at the end of phase. So, if a unit of warriors with a lord is swept, remove the unit and all counters. The lord gets swept too, however he gets an EL counter placed where his model was. Consolidate the unit that won the combat (a clever opponent will do so in such a manner as to prevent the character from coming back with EL by moving his models so that the character can't get back up within 3" of the counter without being within 1" of an enemy model). If the character with the EL counter can get back up (i.e. no enemy units in the area as specified above) he makes his roll and has a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase.

The rule associated with SA and EL are two completely separate rules entirely and independent of one another.

Except they're not. SA destroys the unit.
You're saving the unit by bringing it back with the EL model.

Nope. The unit is destroyed by the SA. The character with EL is destroyed as well. Nothing occuring within the SA allows them to return. However, the character with EL gets a counter and gets a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase, provided he can do so.

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Except they're not. SA destroys the unit.
You're saving the unit by bringing it back with the EL model.

Nope. The unit is destroyed by the SA. The character with EL is destroyed as well. Nothing occuring within the SA allows them to return. However, the character with EL gets a counter and gets a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase, provided he can do so.

So you agree that SA destroys the unit.

Are you saying that the EL model that stands back up is a new unit? Or resurrecting the old unit?

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Except they're not. SA destroys the unit.
You're saving the unit by bringing it back with the EL model.

Nope. The unit is destroyed by the SA. The character with EL is destroyed as well. Nothing occuring within the SA allows them to return. However, the character with EL gets a counter and gets a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase, provided he can do so.

So you agree that SA destroys the unit.

Are you saying that the EL model that stands back up is a new unit? Or resurrecting the old unit?

Yes, the SA destroys the unit, including any characters attached to it due to the sweep. The unit cannot resurrect, because reanimation protocols specifically states that a unit wiped out completely loses all counters. A model with EL follows a completely different rule than reanimation protocols for getting up. The unit is destroyed. The only one that would have a chance to get back up would be the character with the EL counter and only because the rule for EL allows it to do so.

It would be treated as a new unit composed of just the character with EL. If more than one, each would be separate units, if I'm not mistaken.

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Except they're not. SA destroys the unit.
You're saving the unit by bringing it back with the EL model.

Nope. The unit is destroyed by the SA. The character with EL is destroyed as well. Nothing occuring within the SA allows them to return. However, the character with EL gets a counter and gets a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase, provided he can do so.

So you agree that SA destroys the unit.

Are you saying that the EL model that stands back up is a new unit? Or resurrecting the old unit?

Yes, the SA destroys the unit, including any characters attached to it due to the sweep. The unit cannot resurrect, because reanimation protocols specifically states that a unit wiped out completely loses all counters. A model with EL follows a completely different rule than reanimation protocols for getting up. The unit is destroyed. The only one that would have a chance to get back up would be the character with the EL counter and only because the rule for EL allows it to do so.

So you're separating the EL model from the unit somehow?
Is the EL model not in a unit?

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Except they're not. SA destroys the unit.
You're saving the unit by bringing it back with the EL model.

Nope. The unit is destroyed by the SA. The character with EL is destroyed as well. Nothing occuring within the SA allows them to return. However, the character with EL gets a counter and gets a chance to get back up at the end of the assault phase, provided he can do so.

So you agree that SA destroys the unit.

Are you saying that the EL model that stands back up is a new unit? Or resurrecting the old unit?

Yes, the SA destroys the unit, including any characters attached to it due to the sweep. The unit cannot resurrect, because reanimation protocols specifically states that a unit wiped out completely loses all counters. A model with EL follows a completely different rule than reanimation protocols for getting up. The unit is destroyed. The only one that would have a chance to get back up would be the character with the EL counter and only because the rule for EL allows it to do so.

So you're separating the EL model from the unit somehow?
Is the EL model not in a unit?

He is in the unit when they get swept. Nothing can prevent the character from dying due to the sweeping advance. EL only allows the character to get back up if he dies or is removed as a casualty at the end of the assault phase after a sweeping advance. Nothing is saving the character with EL from dying. He dies. Number of wounds left doesn't matter, special abilities, nothing...he dies along with the unit he was attached to. He gets an EL counter and then gets a chance to get back up being his own separate unit at the end of the phase. In fact, you're technically not supposed to even roll for EL until the very end of the phase when all close combats are completed across the board.

rigeld2 wrote:So you're separating the EL model from the unit somehow?
Is the EL model not in a unit?

He has to be in the (now dead) unit, as he can only leave in the movement phase.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So you're separating the EL model from the unit somehow?
Is the EL model not in a unit?

He has to be in the (now dead) unit, as he can only leave in the movement phase.

Yes, but he's not leaving the unit. He dies, along with his unit. He gets a chance to return with EL and becomes his own separate unit entirely.

robzidious wrote:Yes, but he's not leaving the unit. He dies, along with his unit. He gets a chance to return with EL and becomes his own separate unit entirely.

How would he become his own separate unit when he may not leave his unit until the movement phase?

DeathReaper wrote:

robzidious wrote:Yes, but he's not leaving the unit. He dies, along with his unit. He gets a chance to return with EL and becomes his own separate unit entirely.

How would he become his own separate unit when he may not leave his unit until the movement phase?

Because when he resurrects, he has no unit. He becomes a unit of his own. He can then join another unit in the subsequent movement phase provided he can actually move and do so.

Think of it like this. When an IC is attached to a unit, and that unit is destroyed due to shooting. The only thing left from the unit is the IC. He is his own unit until he joins another unit in the movement phase. Same thing. This just happens at the end of the assault phase.

robzidious wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

robzidious wrote:Yes, but he's not leaving the unit. He dies, along with his unit. He gets a chance to return with EL and becomes his own separate unit entirely.

How would he become his own separate unit when he may not leave his unit until the movement phase?

Because when he resurrects, he has no unit. He becomes a unit of his own. He can then join another unit in the subsequent movement phase provided he can actually move and do so.

Except he is not allowed to leave his unit until the movement phase, so RAW he is still attached to the (now dead) warrior unit.\

The rules do not say that "He becomes a unit of his own"

When the unit is killed, all the models are removed as casualties. When you do that, EL triggers and you place a token. At this point, SA has been fulfilled. Unit is destroyed. End of story. Everybody's dead, Dave.
The Token, placed legally as the model was removed as a casualty, allows an EL roll. Make the roll and the model may be placed back on the table.

Characters are specifically allowed to come back even if their unit has been wiped out. As per the FAQ:


Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal Court, us wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol rolls?

A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

robzidious wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

robzidious wrote:Yes, but he's not leaving the unit. He dies, along with his unit. He gets a chance to return with EL and becomes his own separate unit entirely.

How would he become his own separate unit when he may not leave his unit until the movement phase?

Because when he resurrects, he has no unit. He becomes a unit of his own. He can then join another unit in the subsequent movement phase provided he can actually move and do so.

But he can't resurrect, because when he died he was part of the unit, and nothing that doesn't explicitly say it can can save the unit from SA.

Fafnir13 wrote:Characters are specifically allowed to come back even if their unit has been wiped out. As per the FAQ:

That is true, however they are still a part of the dead unit until the movement phase.

and they can not come back from a SA because the EL rule does not specify that they can.

And both of you are assuming an IC. Crypteks are not ICs and are also EL.

And you're still saving the unit without a rule specifically allowing you do to so.

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage

Does EL otherwise specify? In other words, does EL say it rescues from SA?

DeathReaper wrote:

robzidious wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

robzidious wrote:Yes, but he's not leaving the unit. He dies, along with his unit. He gets a chance to return with EL and becomes his own separate unit entirely.

How would he become his own separate unit when he may not leave his unit until the movement phase?

Because when he resurrects, he has no unit. He becomes a unit of his own. He can then join another unit in the subsequent movement phase provided he can actually move and do so.

Except he is not allowed to leave his unit until the movement phase, so RAW he is still attached to the (now dead) warrior unit.\

The rules do not say that " He becomes a unit of his own"

He is not leaving the unit. The unit died. When he returns, he is his own unit. What else could he be?

robzidious wrote:He is not leaving the unit. The unit died. When he returns, he is his own unit. What else could he be?

If all of the models were killed with shooting attacks, and the EL models gets back up he is still attached to the unit he was with even though they are now all dead until his next movement phase, as that is when IC's are allowed to leave a unit.

Not that it really matters that he is still a part of the unit as it does not really have any effect on anything.

rigeld2 wrote:And both of you are assuming an IC. Crypteks are not ICs and are also EL.

And you're still saving the unit without a rule specifically allowing you do to so.

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage

Does EL otherwise specify? In other words, does EL say it rescues from SA?

Again, nothing within EL, Reanimation, or anything else states that they are being rescued or saved from a SA. The EL roll is made at the end of the assault phase. It's not something that saves the character or his unit from dying...he dies.. He just has a chance to get back up. But only the models with EL can do this.

Believe me, I hate this rule. It is beyond cheesy and it has frustrated me playing to no end. No one likes having to kill a lord/cryptek whatever over and over again. Still yet, that's the case with EL.

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And both of you are assuming an IC. Crypteks are not ICs and are also EL.

And you're still saving the unit without a rule specifically allowing you do to so.

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage

Does EL otherwise specify? In other words, does EL say it rescues from SA?

Again, nothing within EL, Reanimation, or anything else states that they are being rescued or saved from a SA. The EL roll is made at the end of the assault phase. It's not something that saves the character or his unit from dying...he dies.. He just has a chance to get back up. But only the models with EL can do this.

Believe me, I hate this rule. It is beyond cheesy and it has frustrated me playing to no end. No one likes having to kill a lord/cryptek whatever over and over again. Still yet, that's the case with EL.

If nothing says that they're being rescued from SA, why are you so adamant that EL rescues them from SA?

DeathReaper wrote:
Not that it really matters that he is still a part of the unit as it does not really have any effect on anything.

Exactly. I guess in the case of crypteks and the like, they return on their own. Considered as the same unit. Just he's by himself at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And both of you are assuming an IC. Crypteks are not ICs and are also EL.

And you're still saving the unit without a rule specifically allowing you do to so.

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage

Does EL otherwise specify? In other words, does EL say it rescues from SA?

Again, nothing within EL, Reanimation, or anything else states that they are being rescued or saved from a SA. The EL roll is made at the end of the assault phase. It's not something that saves the character or his unit from dying...he dies.. He just has a chance to get back up. But only the models with EL can do this.

Believe me, I hate this rule. It is beyond cheesy and it has frustrated me playing to no end. No one likes having to kill a lord/cryptek whatever over and over again. Still yet, that's the case with EL.

If nothing says that they're being rescued from SA, why are you so adamant that EL rescues them from SA?

I'm not adamant that it rescues them. It doesn't. Rescue would be to say, somehow they avoid the sweep and do not die. They die. They absolutely are removed as casualties and die. It's just that the models with EL are replaced with a counter and get to roll at the end of the assault phase to get back up.

robzidious wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Not that it really matters that he is still a part of the unit as it does not really have any effect on anything.

Exactly. I guess in the case of crypteks and the like, they return on their own. Considered as the same unit. Just he's by himself at this point.

Except it absolutely matters. The unit was destroyed and cannot be saved. Bringing back a member of the unit saves the unit.

Trying to say that a Cryptek is a new unit that "counts as" the old unit has no rules support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

robzidious wrote:I'm not adamant that it rescues them. It doesn't. Rescue would be to say, somehow they avoid the sweep and do not die. They die. They absolutely are removed as casualties and die. It's just that the models with EL are replaced with a counter and get to roll at the end of the assault phase to get back up.

You're adamant that the unit is saved. With no rules support.

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Not that it really matters that he is still a part of the unit as it does not really have any effect on anything.

Exactly. I guess in the case of crypteks and the like, they return on their own. Considered as the same unit. Just he's by himself at this point.

Except it absolutely matters. The unit was destroyed and cannot be saved. Bringing back a member of the unit saves the unit.

Trying to say that a Cryptek is a new unit that "counts as" the old unit has no rules support.

It doesn't save the unit, dude. The unit dies. When the SA occurs they absolutely die. All of them. Remove any reanimation protocol counters. That unit is dead. Gone. However, if a model with EL is removed as a casualty he gets an EL counter and has a chance to get back up. It has absolute rules support because it is written in the rules. Nothing prevents the unit/character from dying during a sweeping advance. The roll to get back up is a completely separate roll made at the end of the phase entirely.

robzidious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

robzidious wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Not that it really matters that he is still a part of the unit as it does not really have any effect on anything.

Exactly. I guess in the case of crypteks and the like, they return on their own. Considered as the same unit. Just he's by himself at this point.

Except it absolutely matters. The unit was destroyed and cannot be saved. Bringing back a member of the unit saves the unit.

Trying to say that a Cryptek is a new unit that "counts as" the old unit has no rules support.

It doesn't save the unit, dude. The unit dies. When the SA occurs they absolutely die. All of them. Remove any reanimation protocol counters. That unit is dead. Gone. However, if a model with EL is removed as a casualty he gets an EL counter and has a chance to get back up. It has absolute rules support because it is written in the rules. Nothing prevents the unit/character from dying during a sweeping advance. The roll to get back up is a completely separate roll made at the end of the phase entirely.

A unit is made up of models.
The unit is destroyed, meaning all the models are RFPaaC.
The unit (meaning the group of models) cannot be saved without specific allowance.

You're not understanding what I say when I say the word "unit". I'm not talking about individual models here. I'm talking about the group of models that walks around the board. The members of the unit are irrelevant - the unit is destroyed.

You know, they are correct though that the unit is "not" saved from sweeping advance. They still suffer the drawback of dying, not being locked in CC anymore, probably being consolidated on top of (thus meaning you can't place the model anyway), and all the non-EL models are gone. Being "rescued" from sweeping advance is very different from something happening because of a cause and effect.

So we have, Sweeping Advance. SA removes the unit as a casualty and the winning unit gets to do all the neat things they can do when winning an Assault Round.

Unit was removed as a casualty which is a pre-qualifier for EL to trigger. EL does not make any mention of what needed to cause this casualty removal nor does it say what denies it, nor does it say it needs to be a final wound casualty.

EL roll is made because the unit/model with EL was removed as a casualty, not because it was Sweeping Advanced.

The whole ATSKNF dispute is irrelevant because that rule allows the marines to not get swept at all and just stay in assault. Not the case at all here.

Honestly, I'm starting to move over to this side of the fence. Don't think I'll play it this way because I KNOW my gaming group would just not play me anymore, but I see it.

And not that it matters but the GW website states that "Models with ever living are always allowed a reanimation protocols roll." LoL Again, for what it's worth.

And you're still saving the destroyed unit without a rule specifically allowing you to do so - which is what SA requires.

The SA rule has the part of " unless otherwise Specified " Now this is all there is, there is no "to work against SA" part to the rule no" rules must state they work re SA " the second two parts are being added by the Necron bashing brigade .

EL states that a model with this rule can attempt to roll to get back up even if his unit is destroyed ,it also states he can get this role when RFPAAC These two statements are otherwise Specifying that he gets to try and get back up .

Now could any of the RAW = everything good in the Necron codex does not work brigade,please show me the reference in the SA rule where it states "unless otherwise Specified to work against SA" is? because i have searched the BRB and can not find it ,yet you still go on about it having to do something that is not in the BRB and so is not RAW.

EL roll is only negated by 2 things and those , are falling back off the table and not being able to place the lord within 3" of his marker nothing else

And as has been said before, but ignored EL does not stop SA, it happens after the SA has happened at the end of the phase.

Now i know i will be called out on this again since i always am but in this case RAW= EL roll is legal .

The pro argument has shown clear and precise use of RAW to help its argument the against side ,has only added extra words to the SA rule which do not exist and then moved the argument away from the main points ,and back to the saving a unit argument we had with the 5th ed rules .

This will go round and round until the thread is locked or something else in the Necrons codex needs nerfing or until a new army's codex is released with nice rules people don't like .

rigeld2 wrote:And you're still saving the destroyed unit without a rule specifically allowing you to do so - which is what SA requires.

You must have missed this earlier but it is not just a specific rule, it is a specific rule at this stage. At this stage is not the entire assault phase that remains, just at this stage. The models must be removed as casualties.

The unit is destroyed and immediately removed as a casualty. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

1st sentence: The unit is removed as a casualty, hence they fulfill the capacity for EL to be activated.
2nd sentence: 1st & second clause, the casualties cannot be prevented and no rule may prevent this unless it specifically says so. 3rd clause, Fluff or narrative.

The EL does not happen at this stage and is not a save, it is not preventing the SA, it is not doing any of that. What it is allowing you to do is to put models that have died, there is no restriction now on how the model died so long as it was removed as a casualty. It appears that there is no difference between RFP and RFPaaC so the models may come back.
This is clearly RAW. Prove to me it is not, parse the sentence and use british english to do it. Take it also in the context of the paragraph.

I don't see why you are against this.

snakel wrote:The SA rule has the part of " unless otherwise Specified " Now this is all there is, there is no "to work against SA" part to the rule no" rules must state they work re SA " the second two parts are being added by the Necron bashing brigade .

Yeah, I'm totally a member. I hate Necrons. I'm completely and utterly biased against them.
Or, I'm just trying to discuss a rule and happen to disagree with you. Nice accusation.

Now could any of the RAW = everything good in the Necron codex does not work brigade,please show me the reference in the SA rule where it states "unless otherwise Specified to work against SA" is? because i have searched the BRB and can not find it ,yet you still go on about it having to do something that is not in the BRB and so is not RAW.

More accusations - cute.
Context is what spells it out. SA nukes the unit unless otherwise specified.

Unless otherwise specified,no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage

Something has to specify it can rescue the unit at this stage.

And as has been said before, but ignored EL does not stop SA, it happens after the SA has happened at the end of the phase.

It wasn't ignored - that is incorrect. SA is not a one-and-done thing. The unit is destroyed and can't come back at this stage.

the against side ,has only added extra words to the SA rule which do not exist and then moved the argument away from the main points ,and back to the saving a unit argument we had with the 5th ed rules .

Yeah, because the saving the unit argument was so wrong last edition, and it's changed so much this edition.

This will go round and round until the thread is locked or something else in the Necrons codex needs nerfing or until a new army's codex is released with nice rules people don't like .

Stop with the accusations please. I'm not the one with a bias here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And you're still saving the destroyed unit without a rule specifically allowing you to do so - which is what SA requires.

You must have missed this earlier but it is not just a specific rule, it is a specific rule at this stage. At this stage is not the entire assault phase that remains, just at this stage. The models must be removed as casualties.

The unit is destroyed and immediately removed as a casualty. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

1st sentence: The unit is removed as a casualty, hence they fulfill the capacity for EL to be activated.
2nd sentence: 1st & second clause, the casualties cannot be prevented and no rule may prevent this unless it specifically says so. 3rd clause, Fluff or narrative.

The EL does not happen at this stage and is not a save, it is not preventing the SA, it is not doing any of that. What it is allowing you to do is to put models that have died, there is no restriction now on how the model died so long as it was removed as a casualty. It appears that there is no difference between RFP and RFPaaC so the models may come back.
This is clearly RAW. Prove to me it is not, parse the sentence and use british english to do it. Take it also in the context of the paragraph.

I don't see why you are against this.

You're asserting that "at this stage" is a point in time. It's not.

"at this stage" is similar to "from here on out" in English.