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Beers are good. Where you at? I'm supposed to have rum with Frazzled whenever I get down to Texas.

Up at Fort Lewis WA.

Ah! I remember Fort Lewis. My dad was stationed in Seattle twenty years ago. We used to go shopping at the commissary at Sand Point.

whembly wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Everyone thinks they are the one that is aware, and that it is the other people that are screwing things up, but the others are saying the same thing about you*. This sort of mentality is part of the reason the cycle continues. Everyone thinks it is the other person so they don't change, and so nothing changes, or, it deteriorates.

I get what you're saying. The thing is, I could be swayed to see voter ID as being an appropriate measure if there was an actual significant problem with in-person voter fraud. If that were a real thing that was actually significantly happening, then what I consider to be an unnecessary burden placed upon the voter to no useful end would then become a necessary burden placed upon the voter a useful end - preventing an actual problem and safeguarding our political process.

But those aren't the facts before us.

I don't know about Penn... but in St. Louis... holy moley do we ever have voter frauds. And the sad thing is that they should NEVER need to attempt this... St. Louis will NEVER go republican.

But, back to OT (Penn)... it is dodgy as I couldn't find any programs in PENN to assist those who have "trouble" getting an ID.

Have a source on the St. Louis voter fraud? Just curious.

streamdragon wrote:[Have a source on the St. Louis voter fraud? Just curious.

There is an article here which talks about a lot of smoke but not much fire I can see; and of course they continue to wrongly equate voter registration fraud with actual voting fraud. If there is a better source I'd also like to read it, this one is sort of poor but the others I saw were generally worse.

streamdragon wrote:

whembly wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Everyone thinks they are the one that is aware, and that it is the other people that are screwing things up, but the others are saying the same thing about you*. This sort of mentality is part of the reason the cycle continues. Everyone thinks it is the other person so they don't change, and so nothing changes, or, it deteriorates.

I get what you're saying. The thing is, I could be swayed to see voter ID as being an appropriate measure if there was an actual significant problem with in-person voter fraud. If that were a real thing that was actually significantly happening, then what I consider to be an unnecessary burden placed upon the voter to no useful end would then become a necessary burden placed upon the voter a useful end - preventing an actual problem and safeguarding our political process.

But those aren't the facts before us.

I don't know about Penn... but in St. Louis... holy moley do we ever have voter frauds. And the sad thing is that they should NEVER need to attempt this... St. Louis will NEVER go republican.

But, back to OT (Penn)... it is dodgy as I couldn't find any programs in PENN to assist those who have "trouble" getting an ID.

Have a source on the St. Louis voter fraud? Just curious.

You can google it... try the local station's website (ksdk or kmov).
Here's quick highlight from nyt:
Ninja'ed by Ouze.

I do know that in E. St. Louis folks were actually convicted of fraud.

U got ninja'd brah

Back on topic, it looks like most actual vote fraud happens with absentee ballots. I'd be all for tightening up on this. It's not that I'm opposed to ever taking medicine, but I need to believe that there is an actual illness involved, and that the medicine is not worse then the illness.

Also ninja'd by Ouze. bed time for me then.

Sorry guys, I guess great minds think alike?

Ouze wrote:U got ninja'd brah

Back on topic, it looks like most actual vote fraud happens with absentee ballots. I'd be all for tightening up on this. It's not that I'm opposed to ever taking medicine, but I need to believe that there is an actual illness involved, and that the medicine is not worse then the illness.

Ya... I vaguely remember that was the issue...

Also, the office (Secretary of State?) were at one point notorious not updating the registration lists... Somehow this caused certain counties to have more votes that actual residents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:Sorry guys, I guess great minds think alike?

Yup...

Off to bed...

Ouze wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Everyone thinks they are the one that is aware, and that it is the other people that are screwing things up, but the others are saying the same thing about you*. This sort of mentality is part of the reason the cycle continues. Everyone thinks it is the other person so they don't change, and so nothing changes, or, it deteriorates.

I get what you're saying. The thing is, I could be swayed to see voter ID as being an appropriate measure if there was an actual significant problem with in-person voter fraud. If that were a real thing that was actually significantly happening, then what I consider to be an unnecessary burden placed upon the voter to no useful end would then become a necessary burden placed upon the voter a useful end - preventing an actual problem and safeguarding our political process.

But those aren't the facts before us.

That is what I am referring to, mostly. I believe Colbert called it 'truthiness', and part of it is an assumption that a person is right in the view, and that it is everyone else that is wrong, or 'just don't get it'. Once you have determined that you have special knowledge and that the rest of the country just 'doesn't get it', you really don't need to look at other arguments or facts, and just know they are wrong out of hand. Any side can certainly be capable of such myopic viewpoint, but in this particular case we have some pretty good examples of Republican policy cognitive dissonance.

A part of the problem is that this isn't an unknown phenomena; most of the people reading are thinking that they know this and that it makes them savvy, but consistent voting patterns show otherwise. We are all to blame, even those that abstain, because that causes its own problems, as history as shown. As moderates and/or independents stop voting and taking part in the political process the extremes gain more traction in the political theatre. I'm not saying that getting 100% voting turnout would solve the problem, but the numbers as they are now are pretty abysmal.

Chongara wrote:You know frankly if black people wanted to vote so much, I don't see why they just don't stop being poor?

Since as we all know being wealthy and successful is simply a matter of working hard and putting enough effort, if you can't afford a car to drive to get an ID it just means you don't want it enough. Frankly why should we give the vote who don't care enough and are too lazy to to not be poor?

I assumed he was being sarcastic...

Kanluwen wrote:I find it stupid that in a move to prevent voter registration fraud, a voter registration card is not considered valid identification.

Its a stupid move, but only because its not needed. Voter cards have no photo, i.e. theoretically, I could take yours and go vote, unless I'm required to have photo ID as well (which I could still fake but hey, no one said this pointless legislation was fullproof ). That actually makes a great deal of sense if the goal is to stop voter fraud... You know. Theoretically.

LordofHats wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I find it stupid that in a move to prevent voter registration fraud, a voter registration card is not considered valid identification.

Its a stupid move, but only because its not needed. Voter cards have no photo, i.e. theoretically, I could take yours and go vote, unless I'm required to have photo ID as well (which I could still fake but hey, no one said this pointless legislation was fullproof ). That actually makes a great deal of sense if the goal is to stop voter fraud... You know. Theoretically.

Something with no efficacy in it's banning does not make sense to ban in the scenario where you are advocating its banning. It makes no sense at all.

streamdragon wrote:I assumed he was being sarcastic...

Speaks volumes about the current state of affairs that it could be taken otherwise.