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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 19:05:31
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I don't know what Crabb River Road is, but I've had all kinds of fun hiking at Brazos Bend. Last trip, I saw 23 Alligators. A handful were over 8'. Fun times!
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 19:09:00
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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kronk wrote:I don't know what Crabb River Road is, but I've had all kinds of fun hiking at Brazos Bend. Last trip, I saw 23 Alligators. A handful were over 8'. Fun times!
That used to be the name of a road to get there. Very twisty. Perfect to play gear shifting speed racer on.
Might not even exist any more. Its been a few years.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 19:09:03
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Hulksmash wrote:Thank you. I understand much better now. I'll stand by my I don't care because I feel it's a level playing field but understand better the concerns and issues surrounding this at least a little better.
Sidenote: Since EPO is a medication wouldn't that have show up on a test? Or does it move through the system to fast? Just curious.
EPO is a naturally occurring chemical, so testing for it was tricky. It took until 2000 for a test which could differentiate between synthetic EPO and the naturally occurring hormone to be developed.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 02:13:25
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Hulksmash wrote:And I'll admit to limited knowledge on blood doping. Why is it bad?
From The Wiki.
The term blood doping originally meant doping with blood, i.e. the transfusion of red blood cells. Red blood cells are uniquely suited to this process because they can be concentrated, frozen and later thawed with little loss of viability or activity. There are two possible types of transfusion: homologous and autologous. In a homologous transfusion, red blood cells from a compatible donor are harvested, concentrated and then transfused into the athlete’s circulation prior to endurance competitions. In an autologous transfusion, the athlete's own red blood cells are harvested well in advance of competition and then re-introduced before a critical event. For some time after the harvesting the athlete may be anemic.
Both types of transfusion can be dangerous because of the risk of infection and the potential toxicity of improperly stored blood. Homologous transfusions present the additional risks of communication of infectious diseases and the possibility of a transfusion reaction. From a logistical standpoint, either type of transfusion requires the athlete to surreptitiously transport frozen red blood cells, thaw and re-infuse them in a non-clinical setting and then dispose of the medical paraphernalia.
In the late 1980s, an advance in medicine led to an entirely new form of blood doping involving the hormone erythropoietin (EPO). EPO is a naturally occurring hormone growth factor that stimulates the formation of red blood cells. Recombinant DNA technology made it possible to produce EPO economically on a large scale and it was approved in US and Europe as a pharmaceutical product for the treatment of anemia resulting from renal failure or cancer chemotherapy. Easily injected under the skin, pharmaceutical EPO can boost hematocrit for six to twenty-four weeks, or longer.
EPO is not free of health hazards: excessive use of the hormone can raise hematocrit above 70% which can cause polycythemia, a condition wherein the level of red blood cells in the blood is abnormally high. This causes the blood to be more viscous than normal, a condition that strains the heart. Some elite athletes who died of heart failure — usually during sleep, when heart rate is naturally low—were found to have unnaturally high red blood cell concentrations in their blood.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 02:50:09
Subject: Re:Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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EPO or "Epoetin Alfa" is one expensive drug.
Clinically they're commonly used on Dialysis patients in certain stages of renal failures.
There's a multi-billion dollar black market for drugs of all types. Makes you wonder if the manufactuers are cutting in the the pie... /tinfoil off
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 05:11:55
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Hulksmash wrote:I'm just curious why they are backtracking. Seems silly to me. If Armstrong was "doping" he was doing it in a way that wasn't tested for and therefore wasn't wrong until recently. Now they can test for this type of thing and he's retiring. As was already stated, everyone seems to have been on an even field and now that they have a test to prevent it in the future everyone will be again. So he's still an athlete that won those competitiions. Seems stupid to change the rules on some of his wins over a decade later..... "Everyone else was doing it" is not an excuse for cheating. Armstrong was cheating, so he deserves to be called on it and had his titles taken from him. If the field was so full of drug cheats that you can't reliably give the titles over to someone who wasn't cheating, then you don't give anyone the titles. You just say the field was full of people who were using illegal means to improve their performance and no-one will be given the titles for that period of time.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/28 05:17:08
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 11:34:45
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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sebster wrote: Hulksmash wrote:I'm just curious why they are backtracking. Seems silly to me.
If Armstrong was "doping" he was doing it in a way that wasn't tested for and therefore wasn't wrong until recently. Now they can test for this type of thing and he's retiring. As was already stated, everyone seems to have been on an even field and now that they have a test to prevent it in the future everyone will be again. So he's still an athlete that won those competitiions. Seems stupid to change the rules on some of his wins over a decade later.....
"Everyone else was doing it" is not an excuse for cheating.
Armstrong was cheating, so he deserves to be called on it and had his titles taken from him. If the field was so full of drug cheats that you can't reliably give the titles over to someone who wasn't cheating, then you don't give anyone the titles. You just say the field was full of people who were using illegal means to improve their performance and no-one will be given the titles for that period of time.
Has he admitted to cheating then?
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 12:55:32
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Okay, prove it? They've tried proving it for something like 16 years now. Right now they don't really have proof so much as questionable hearsay from confessed dopers who have nothing to lose anyway. You can try to claim "oh it's obvious he was cheating", but that's not proof either, that's pointless, baseless conjecture.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/28 12:56:08
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 12:59:11
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)
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Well obviously he's guilty since he's not fighting any more guys. I mean, fighting it for a decade doesn't count, it only matters that he's not fighting it now so GUILTY!
Either way I don't really care since it's cycling. It just reeks of witch hunt. And if the field was already so rife with cheaters (why make something illegal if you can't track it?) then to hell with it.
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Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 13:38:41
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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Melissia wrote:Okay, prove it?
They've tried proving it for something like 16 years now. Right now they don't really have proof so much as questionable hearsay from confessed dopers who have nothing to lose anyway. You can try to claim "oh it's obvious he was cheating", but that's not proof either, that's pointless, baseless conjecture.
Current drug tests supposedly have proven that he had drugs in his system, they just didn't have the tech to scan for them a decade ago. Still sucks, because even if he did, all he did was level the playing field-everyone else was doing it, so he could stay pure and lose, or even out with them and win. Did he do the right thing? No. Did he go above and beyond what everyone else did? Also no. If his title is stripped, the records for the past decade need to be wiped away as well, and the whole TDF needs to be restarted over.
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Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 14:00:04
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Melissia wrote:Okay, prove it?
They've tried proving it for something like 16 years now. Right now they don't really have proof so much as questionable hearsay from confessed dopers who have nothing to lose anyway. You can try to claim "oh it's obvious he was cheating", but that's not proof either, that's pointless, baseless conjecture.
I hate to agree, but I must. I have no love for Armstrong or all the wannabe poopeyheads clogging the roads in Austin with their holier than thou attitude. But he never tested positive. Sorry, suck it up and move on.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 15:25:31
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Melissia wrote:
They've tried proving it for something like 16 years now. Right now they don't really have proof so much as questionable hearsay from confessed dopers who have nothing to lose anyway. You can try to claim "oh it's obvious he was cheating", but that's not proof either, that's pointless, baseless conjecture.
One of the reasons they've tried proving it for so long is that very few people have any personal love for Lance Armstrong. He's reportedly a dick even by the standards of professional athletes, who I normally defend for deserving to be dicks.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 15:38:43
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Lethal Lhamean
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Now for the big question: When's wiggins going to get caught? The cycling community as a whole seems to reckon it'll either be fairly quick (e.g. within a year) or a reasonably long time (years or possibly decades). When do you reckon it'll be?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 16:00:52
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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p_gray99 wrote:Now for the big question: When's wiggins going to get caught? The cycling community as a whole seems to reckon it'll either be fairly quick (e.g. within a year) or a reasonably long time (years or possibly decades). When do you reckon it'll be?
Wiggins hates doping. The team he raced with in the 2007 Tour De France pulled out after two of their riders were caught doping and he threw away his kit and vowed to never ride for them again.
He did an article on his thoughts on doping for the Guardian here.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 16:12:17
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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British Cyclists are the most thoroughly tested riders in the world. 70 out of competition tests per year.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 16:39:17
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Lethal Lhamean
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Yeah, but they've got Sky behind them. With that much power there's going to be a way, and did you see the tour last year? There wasn't any competition at all! Wiggins was saying from the first week what he was planning to do when he'd won. Sure, it may not be doping, but there's not a whole load of doubt that he's using something, if not against the rules then at least against the spirit of the competition, and that the riders from other teams don't have the opportunity to use or don't want to use.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:02:45
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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p_gray99 wrote:Yeah, but they've got Sky behind them. With that much power there's going to be a way, and did you see the tour last year? There wasn't any competition at all! Wiggins was saying from the first week what he was planning to do when he'd won. Sure, it may not be doping, but there's not a whole load of doubt that he's using something, if not against the rules then at least against the spirit of the competition, and that the riders from other teams don't have the opportunity to use or don't want to use. Team Sky's manager is Dave Brailsford, who is also in charge of Team GB for our Olympic cycling. So Team Sky has the benefit of being led by the best manager in the world, as proven by our complete domination of track cycling in the Olympics. If Team Sky were to be found to be doping or using other performance enhancing drugs then Brailsford would lose his position in Team GB and there would probably also be calls for him to be stripped of his CBE. He is also being recommended for a Knighthood, which would no doubt not last long if he was caught cheating. There is too much to lose for the team and british cycling overall to risk using drugs.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:03:18
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:29:09
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Lethal Lhamean
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A Town Called Malus wrote: p_gray99 wrote:Yeah, but they've got Sky behind them. With that much power there's going to be a way, and did you see the tour last year? There wasn't any competition at all! Wiggins was saying from the first week what he was planning to do when he'd won. Sure, it may not be doping, but there's not a whole load of doubt that he's using something, if not against the rules then at least against the spirit of the competition, and that the riders from other teams don't have the opportunity to use or don't want to use.
Team Sky's manager is Dave Brailsford, who is also in charge of Team GB for our Olympic cycling. So Team Sky has the benefit of being led by the best manager in the world, as proven by our complete domination of track cycling in the Olympics.
If Team Sky were to be found to be doping or using other performance enhancing drugs then Brailsford would lose his position in Team GB and there would probably also be calls for him to be stripped of his CBE. He is also being recommended for a Knighthood, which would no doubt not last long if he was caught cheating.
There is too much to lose for the team and british cycling overall to risk using drugs.
You could just as easily say that 7 tour de france wins is too much to risk, if he didn't get good results in the tour de france or on the track then he wouldn't be in position for a knighthood.
Ok, sure, it's a bit more delicate than just using drugs. Quite a few people are saying it could easily be that they just payed the opposition teams a reasonable amount to lower the level of competition that they were up against, or something similar. But, let's be honest, there should have been more competition than that. Perhaps had it been completely fair sky still would have won (though Froome was fairly obviously being held back, though as this is almost expected of sky no-one batted an eyelid) but everyone expected Evans to put up more of a fight, and if it was completely fair Wiggins probably wouldn't have spoken about what he'd do when he won simply because it's never a certainty in cycling. Even Merckx, arguably the best cyclist ever, only won 1/3 of the stages he ever rode. Perhaps Wiggins was just taking it for granted, but if that was the case he was taking a pretty big risk with all those mountain stages coming up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 22:04:33
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Is this turning into a 'The winner is obviously using drugs because he's so much better than everyone else?' kind of thing?
Because you get that with video games when butt hurt 12 year olds shout hacker because you killed them when they think they should have killed you...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 01:51:58
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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purplefood wrote:Is this turning into a 'The winner is obviously using drugs because he's so much better than everyone else?' kind of thing?
Because you get that with video games when butt hurt 12 year olds shout hacker because you killed them when they think they should have killed you...
"OMG HAX!" "Who and how?" "Your KDR is greater than mine and you're a girl, you must be HAX!"
True story.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 01:59:27
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Melissia wrote: purplefood wrote:Is this turning into a 'The winner is obviously using drugs because he's so much better than everyone else?' kind of thing?
Because you get that with video games when butt hurt 12 year olds shout hacker because you killed them when they think they should have killed you...
"OMG HAX!" "Who and how?" "Your KDR is greater than mine and you're a girl, you must be HAX!"
True story.
Were you HAX?
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 03:08:56
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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No, but since when was that a requirement before we could call a spade a spade? Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:Okay, prove it?
They've tried proving it for something like 16 years now. Right now they don't really have proof so much as questionable hearsay from confessed dopers who have nothing to lose anyway. You can try to claim "oh it's obvious he was cheating", but that's not proof either, that's pointless, baseless conjecture.
Uh, they were in the process of formally charging him and testing the evidence they had built up. Armstrong opted not to defend himself.
When a guy is charged with a crime, and decides to avoid trial and just plead guilty... we don't go around saying 'we can't say he's a criminal because he wasn't actually convicted in a court of law'... that'd be silly, and Armstrong's case is no different. If he doesn't want to get called a cheater, then he should man up and go to court and defend himself. Automatically Appended Next Post: Frazzled wrote:I hate to agree, but I must. I have no love for Armstrong or all the wannabe poopeyheads clogging the roads in Austin with their holier than thou attitude. But he never tested positive. Sorry, suck it up and move on.
Testing for EPO was very limited during his time in the sport. When testing improved he retired immediately. Multiple people have come forward stating they knew he used EPO. When he was asked to defend himself against these allegations he said he wouldn't, and accepted being stripped of his titles.
That's called being a cheater.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/29 03:14:11
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 17:07:03
Subject: Re:Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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This sums it up nicely:
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 17:33:03
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Frankly bicycle sports should just be banned, unless it involves bikinis, or homemade lances and shields.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 17:35:35
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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sebster wrote:When a guy is charged with a crime, and decides to avoid trial and just plead guilty
Well, I don't know if you paid any attention, but he didn't do this. Also, using your analogy, he's gone through something like septuple jeopardy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/29 17:40:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 17:42:46
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Hallowed Canoness
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http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8310275/armstrong-worth-honoring
Yeah, after five million, and knowing that it could take years in a fight stacked against me after sixteen YEARS of the bs already. I'd flip the table, flip the bird and walk out too. It's the definition of a witch hunt. You're guilty and they're going to keep changing the rules until they can prove it.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/30 02:06:21
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/ id/8310275/armstrong-worth-honoring
Yeah, after five million, and knowing that it could take years in a fight stacked against me after sixteen YEARS of the bs already. I'd flip the table, flip the bird and walk out too. It's the definition of a witch hunt. You're guilty and they're going to keep changing the rules until they can prove it.
Exactly this. After over a decade of defending yourself, spending a large portion of time and money...sometimes you just have to give up-they won't be happy til it's over. Frankly, I DO believe he doped, especially after what I was told by my dad (mentioned earlier in the thread), but again it was a level playing field-he didn't do it to gain an advantage, merely to be on par with the other guys. If none of them had doped, he'd still have won (likely). I have no love of Armstrong either: after his wife stood by him through all the cancer and never gave up on him, he gave her the boot for Sheryl Crow as soon as his cancer went into remission. Nice guy? Hardly. But if they choose to find him guilty, every other cyclist needs to be tested as extensively as he was, go through the same crap, and lose all their previous medals as well if they were doping. Even playing field is the key here. Baseball players, basketball players and football players don't go through this crap-they get tested ONE day during pre-season, they know when it's coming, and that's it. They can start their steroid use after the test is done, stop with a reasonable amount of time before the next test the following year, and they're golden. Treat them all the same-if you want to test cyclists one way, test other athletes the same way. Fairness is key. Treat them all equally, administer RANDOM tests, and anyone caught is to be fired on the spot and return any salary for the contract they are currently in that they have already received. Guarantee at least 50-75% of drug usage will end for athletes, with only the Russian-Roulette lovers continuing to do it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/30 02:12:49
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Fixture of Dakka
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I virtually guarantee the Tour de France won't actually strip him. If the were going to they would have done it by now. Thier silence speaks volumes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/30 02:35:19
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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sebster wrote:
When a guy is charged with a crime, and decides to avoid trial and just plead guilty... we don't go around saying 'we can't say he's a criminal because he wasn't actually convicted in a court of law'... that'd be silly, and Armstrong's case is no different. If he doesn't want to get called a cheater, then he should man up and go to court and defend himself.
Interestingly if this were a criminal case the accusations being levied against Armstrong would be well past the statute of limitations for similar crimes.
But either way, that is pretty much how it works. A person is not a criminal until he's convicted in a court of law. Though in this case a better analogy would be entering a plea of no contest, rather than a guilty plea. Of course as this would be arbitration rather than a criminal proceeding the analogy is still not perfect.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/30 02:58:37
Subject: Armstrong facing loss of 7 Tour de France titles
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Also if it was a criminal case, they'd have probably appealed it to the supreme court-- who probably wouldn't have accepted it anyway. Frankly, I feel that the ruling here is much like the ruling against Samsung earlier, it's motivated more by nationalism than by actual fact or law.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/30 02:59:41
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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