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Jubal Khan. He'll run over the rest of them

 Red Viper wrote:
Isn't Dante one-shotting Skarband just a rumor? Doesn't Dante roll his eyes or something when people mention that?

IIRC, that's how it's written in the BA codex.

Regardless, I still think Dante wins.

The one-shot is how everyone within the setting knows the story, but the codex makes a point of saying that only Dante knows for sure. It's more pointing out that he is so old, that nobody else who was there is still alive.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Both Calgar and Dante's most recent fluff was written by Matt Ward. That right there makes me tone down their accomplishments just a bit to fit in line with pretty much anyone else who has ever written anything 40K related.

Dante cutting Skarbrand in half wasn't Ward-penned as far as I know, it's not in the BA codex. It was last I checked on GW's website.

Also, Garvy only demonstrate his own bias by getting buttmad over a "Which chapter master beats up which" thread.

DarthMarko, I wouldn't trust wikia as a reliable source. Like, at all.

Tell me though, if we're just going to throw out Calgar and Dante's feats on the basis of "I don't like it, it didn't happen," how can discussion take place?

Do I, then, get to disregard everything Logan has done to show him being a great warrior, because I don't like some of what he's done? No, I don't, because that would be stupid, and it is stupid to do the same for Dante and Calgar.

Ward-penned or not, their feats speak for themselves.

There is a slight difference exclaiming how one guys is a powerful and viscous fighter and is greatly respected/feared by his enemies and/or allies and having a guy rampaging around killing things that they had no business even being able to kill in the first place.

One of the above is wards way, the other is everyone elses. What happens if in the next Nid codex someone pens that in the past 'ol One Eye cut two prime and fearless SM chapter masters (of a SM faction to be named later) in half with a single swipe of his claw. Does this fluff suddenly become cannon and trump everything before it? Does 'ol one eye suddenly become the baddest Nid in the galaxy ever as it alone accomplished a feat that nothing has ever done before or will ever do again?

That is what is the problem with GW fluff. They have to keep writing new stuff, but refusing to move the time line, so old stuff gets reconned and depending on who is the current writer that recon might just be a little hard to swallow if your looking at the grand history of 40K. I'm more than willing to give Dante and Calgar their due. Proud Chapter Masters who through cunning, strength, and unwavering will have countless personal victories in their tireless defense of the Imperium. But single OTT events like that seem more appropriate as acts of pure propaganda than what really happened.

But I will be the first to admit, I view 40K through rose colored glasses. I will happily and completely just ignore fluff that is written that doesn't fit into my perception of what 40K is and how it functions. Because I want to make my games my own. I love the idea that SW are vikings in space and as such only care about those bits of fluff that project them in that light or other side bits that I personally think is cool. All the other stuff I happily dismiss as enemy propoganda. You have to make the game your own something your willing to enjoy, otherwise what the hell is the point of even paying attention to the fluff and not just use the numbers on the stat sheets.

 Jayden63 wrote:

But I will be the first to admit, I view 40K through rose colored glasses. I will happily and completely just ignore fluff that is written that doesn't fit into my perception of what 40K is and how it functions. Because I want to make my games my own. I love the idea that SW are vikings in space and as such only care about those bits of fluff that project them in that light or other side bits that I personally think is cool. All the other stuff I happily dismiss as enemy propoganda. You have to make the game your own something your willing to enjoy, otherwise what the hell is the point of even paying attention to the fluff and not just use the numbers on the stat sheets.

Risking sounding a bit rude here, that's a completely valid way to look at the fluff, but it has nothing to do in a thread discussing the fluff in it's entirety.

So I made Calgar, Logan, Dante, Seth and Kandor go up against each other:

Calgar: 13 wins 2 draws
Logan: 11 wins 2 draws
Dante: 11 wins 5 draws
Kantor: 4 wins 4 draws
Seth: 3 wins

Every model dueled each other, 5 times each

SO LOGAN AND DANTE ARE ABOUT EVEN,
but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this: Dante, Dante, Draw, Logan, Dante

As far as TT goes, Death Mask of Sanguinius swings the Dante/Logan matchup in Dante's favor.

Yes by a long shot, it makes Logan have 2 wounds

The High Marshal of course, no bias at all.

 redkommando wrote:
So I made Calgar, Logan, Dante, Seth and Kandor go up against each other:

Calgar: 13 wins 2 draws
Logan: 11 wins 2 draws
Dante: 11 wins 5 draws
Kantor: 4 wins 4 draws
Seth: 3 wins

Every model dueled each other, 5 times each

SO LOGAN AND DANTE ARE ABOUT EVEN,
but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this: Dante, Dante, Draw, Logan, Dante

but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this Logan,Logan,Logan,Draw,Logan,Dante.....
Guys, little text on top of our Avatar makes us little impartial :-) But OK I love Dante....

I'm fairly sure Logan and Dante would be about even in all honesty

It is totally gonna come down to first hit. Tushy has some nice master-crafted salamander gear, but no termie plate. Calgar has rediculous power and wargear, but his speed would suffer (not much but enough that an opening may be found). Azrael just doesn't have the chops in a heavyweight ccw fight, but he does have the plasma/bolter. Vlad has some serious crush with the t hammers, but you gotta get em up to speed. Logan has the age and great weapons, but a hot head. Dante has manueverability, a sweet axe, and a great pistol arm, but he's not gonna survive a heavy shot to the gut. Helbrecht has righteous zeal and fervor, but just like Logan he could go off all Allahu Ahkbar, and then he's toast.

I'd say it depends on if they're wearing a helmet.

*ahem* Calgar, Azrael, Helbrecht, Logan, *ahem*

The helmetless guys could lose easily to Vulkan's flamer.

 Sirmauz wrote:
It is totally gonna come down to first hit. Tushy has some nice master-crafted salamander gear, but no termie plate. Calgar has rediculous power and wargear, but his speed would suffer (not much but enough that an opening may be found). Azrael just doesn't have the chops in a heavyweight ccw fight, but he does have the plasma/bolter. Vlad has some serious crush with the t hammers, but you gotta get em up to speed. Logan has the age and great weapons, but a hot head. Dante has manueverability, a sweet axe, and a great pistol arm, but he's not gonna survive a heavy shot to the gut. Helbrecht has righteous zeal and fervor, but just like Logan he could go off all Allahu Ahkbar, and then he's toast.

Tu'Shan would be in terminator armor. In all the novels Chapter Master Tu'Shan is described as being in TDA. Vulkan HeStan on the other hand has Artificer armor.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 redkommando wrote:
So I made Calgar, Logan, Dante, Seth and Kandor go up against each other:

Calgar: 13 wins 2 draws
Logan: 11 wins 2 draws
Dante: 11 wins 5 draws
Kantor: 4 wins 4 draws
Seth: 3 wins

Every model dueled each other, 5 times each

SO LOGAN AND DANTE ARE ABOUT EVEN,
but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this: Dante, Dante, Draw, Logan, Dante

but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this Logan,Logan,Logan,Draw,Logan,Dante.....
Guys, little text on top of our Avatar makes us little impartial :-) But OK I love Dante....

I'm pretty sure you didn't let them fight, and completely not at his.

 Decio wrote:
I'd say it depends on if they're wearing a helmet.

*ahem* Calgar, Azrael, Helbrecht, Logan, *ahem*

The helmetless guys could lose easily to Vulkan's flamer.

Helbrecht's actually wearing his Iron Halo though.

On the table top, Logan vs Dante -

With no gear, Dante has +1 wound and +1 initiative, but Logan has +2 attacks (for 1 round thanks to high king) and rerolls of 1s on the to hit and to wound (thanks to preferred enemy).

The short answer is that Dante wins at the top of round 3 as he puts 1 wound on Logan per round, and Logan has only put 2.75 wounds on Dante in two rounds.

With Gear the story changes.

Dante now has 5 attacks and now hit on 3+ instead of 4+ and he gets one master crafted reroll. Lets be generous and call it 4 hits. Still needs 4s to wound, so thats two wounds, Logan saves 1, still having one wound left thanks to Dantes mask.)

Now Logan swings with his weapon in P-fist mode (why not, he is going last anyway). 5 attacks, also hits on 3+ (thanks to wolf tooth necklace) with rerolls on 1s (preferred enemy). We will do the same as Dante and give him 4 hits. He then wounds 4 times (2+ to wound with rerolls of 1s). Dante saves 2 times however also suffers instant death.

And thats how it rolls. Makes sense that Logan is 50 more points than Dante.

On the table top in full gear, I think the only Chapter Master that can take Logan is Lysander with his 5 wounds, EW, and 3++ save. However, fluff wise is a totally different story as each Chapter Master didn't get to where they are by accident. These guys earned their positions and in a universe where there is only war, you have to be the best of the best to get your name even mentioned in the annals of history.

Well Azrael would just wait till Logan killed off everyone then sucker punch him with a power-fist. Just like the Lion and Russ. The ballistic skill 5 master crafted combi plasma helps as well. Heck since most of these guys would nuke him in melee with the current rules there would be no point trying to get into melee range stay 18 out and shoot every turn.

I noticed that everyone's 'favorite' mary sue, Kaldor Draigo is not on the list. WELL, he is stuck in the warp....

Anyways, I have to give it to Dante. He may be 1100+ years old, but it works only to his advantage, because if you've seen the pictures of him with his mask off, he's still young (as far as we can see) in physical terms. Calgar's a good tactician, but because he's probably taking most of his fighting technique from the Codex Astartes, Dante knows not only what to expect from him, but can do it faster and more proficiently.

Against Logan, it is a tough call. Logan's Space Wolf training means he likely has developed his fighting strategy. This makes him not only unpredictable, but means he can continuously hone his strategy. Logan has also most likely fought foes who learned from the Codex before, and thus knows what to expect. However, honing his own technique can also have weaknesses that a foe has yet to take advantage of, and he fights in Terminator armor, which costs him some maneuverability compared to Dante's Artificer armor.

What Dante gets in the fight is the before said maneuverability, an Iron Halo to give him extra survivability and a regime of training from the Codex. Dante however has had time to incorporate his own fighting strategies, that would give him a significant boost to his abilities. And then he has an infernus pistol, which could easily be used in cc, and very useful because of it's strenght and penetrating power.

It's a duel between many skilled combatants. My vote went to Dante because although he has potential weaknesses, he has potential strengths that can tapped into and augment his fighting ability beyond what is already seen

Draigo isn't on the list because he'd clean house. No one on this list could begin to oppose him.

Also, Calgar isn't an amateur who is reliant on the Codex Astartes to tell him when to punch, when to block, or when to take a post-fight dump.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Draigo isn't on the list because he'd clean house. No one on this list could begin to oppose him.

Also, Calgar isn't an amateur who is reliant on the Codex Astartes to tell him when to punch, when to block, or when to take a post-fight dump.

A very good point. I'm not meaning to suggest Calgar's entire fighting strategy is based on the Codex, however a good portion of it is based on the Codex. A base that both Chapter Masters have built upon. Dante has just more time to improve upon it. I don't think it's unfair to give Dante that advantage