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Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Great to see some wood elf love. Ive been watching you for a while and now im going to throw in my 2 cents. Wood elves where my first army and i learnt fast or died, i learnt and i'd like to think i have a good understanding of the army and how it works.

Love most of the changes, and most of them where sorely needed (LoAL re-vamp, EG re-work) and ill get what i like out of the way first. Like the new army rules, especially fire and flee, but im worried this could be a tiny bit too good. Say a unit of ten glade guard get charged and you fire and flee, thats ten shots at strength 4 with no penalties, and say you make it out, rally, put another 10 shots in and get SaS the next turn with another ten shots. Thats 30 shots in 2 turns into a probably already depleated unit. I'd say keep a -1 to hit when flee and fire'ing to show how hasty it is and not be over powered. 'cause say a mage bunker of 20 puts out 60 shots and if my maths is right thats 20 wounds on a t4 unit and 10 after a 4+ save!!!60*2/3*40*1/2*20*10*

All this commenting on EG makes me want to join in. Because you have removed the harp (which i dissagree with, i mean only arrows as enchanted items? a little bland.) i think that insted of the spear-staves granting a +1 armour save it adds a parry save and they have a 5+ standered. Meaning they can be countered by shooting (like most elf horde units) and a parry save is slightly better in combat because it carnt be negated. And personally i found that +1 attack works better then +1 strength, they are double sided spears, not helbeards, why treat them as such?

I also think that some of your units have a low I for no reason. I like the new hunting hounds but really, I3? Dire wolves have I 3, and they are already dead! There dogs, there ment to be fast, they should have I5, 4 at least. And maybe an increase in points and have a plus 1 strength on the charge to put them on par as cheap glade riders with no shooting. We have enough re directors with no other perpose. And treekin and treemen, why the nurf to I 2? Sorry if this has been glazed over before but i missed it. Treekin are one of the best MI in the game but this is a huge nurf, Now ogres hit at the same time as them, as well as choppa orks who all will shred our expensive unit. I understand that they are lumbering and all but if you want to make them slow make them I3 to strike on par with humans and before ogres. In contrasted to WR need to be I6? I thought that was reserved for really,really agile units like wardancers and dryads who are unnaterly quick, ive never seen any fluff to justify them being as quick. I5 is fine, it strikes at least at the same time as other elites, I 6 is a special place for the best of the best, i dont see WR as being that fast.

The treeman ancient is a good looking and kinda reminds me of a greater daemon. *even if he strike AFTER a GUO!!!!* The magic levels are nice, especially with the nice lore re-boot but i find the W8 unneeded. If you want to make him tough add more Toughtness to make him T8, making him untouchable to anything less then cannons. I also think he SHOULD be flammable, now he has a 5+ ward save he is saver from it and if a GIANT TREE doesnt have flammable nothing should. Also the ability to shrug off cannons on a 4+ is way to good, why does he even have regen? Trees dont regenerate. Maybe there could be a sprite that does it, forest spririt only that repairs the bark, at say 50pts. Compare him to a GUO, who is a lot more expensive, and they do the same thing. the only difference in stat line is he has 2 more wounds, 3 less WS, 2 higher I (!!!) and 2 less attacks and what armour does he come with? A 5+ ward like us and for 50 pts (500pts min) he gets a 4+ save (we have better) and regen. We do everything the same for less and more effect. So id say increase his price to 325, remove regen and have it as a sprite, bump T, remove wounds and bump I to 4 or 3. If you think this is too much a point increase make him a level 1 base and he can go up to level 3 (like a GUO...) as i treemen ancients would be able to always do tree magic wouldn't they?

Im only trying to be constructive because when this is done i fully intend to play this in my gaming group, and i want it to be fair and up to meta, not another half good army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 19:49:48


 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@bRianStorm: that's a cool idea, but I'd be hesitant to add in any further rules. Having Forest Strider and Stubborn on their Skirmish units in woods should convey a similar feel without the extra complications.

@ALEXisAWESOME: I shall respond to your points in the order they appear in your post-

- you raise a good point about Fire and Flee!. In the current book, Wood Elves still suffer a -1 on Stand and Shoot! reactions, right? Maybe I'll just keep it that way.
But as awesome as Fire and Flee! sounds, it's actually not that great on the table. The chances of being caught, fleeing off the edge of the table, not rallying next turn, and--the big one--disrupting your line as the unit gets bumped through other units, obstacles, etc. all result in this option being very conditional.

- getting rid of most of the magic items is just to keep the book in line with the other new Army Books. The Harp is a decent item, but it doesn't do anything to continue the tone of the army. But, since magic arrows and Spites are such cool concepts, I broke from the current trend and gave them more magic items than the other books.

- Currently, the spear-staves don't grant any armour or a Parry; Eternal Guard have a 6+ armour and 5+ Regeneration. The staves act as halberds and spears.
As for +1A versus +1S (assuming a WS4 or less enemy charged 15+ Eternal Guard deployed 5-wide):

Against T2, 5+ armour, +1A deals 5.9 wounds, +1S deals 6.9 wounds.
Against T3, 5+ armour, +1A deals 4.5, +1S deals 5.6.
Against T4, 5+ armour, +1A deals 2.9, +1S 4.2
Against T5, 5+ armour, +1A 1.5, +1S 2.8.

And so on. Without any armour, +1S is still better against everything except T3 (then it's a tie) and T2 (+1A is better by .4 wounds). At T6+ and/or 1+ armour, +1A is better, but then they're both awful anyway.

So as for you finding that more attacks are better than higher strength, in this case, I'd have to say you're mistaken, or that your local meta is an unusual case.

And spear-staves barely make sense, no matter how you look at it. Warhammer is not a good place to look for weapons that perform as they should, historically. This interpretation is just better, mechanically.

- Hunting Hounds are Chaos Warhounds, except they have Forest Stalkers and cost 1pt/model more. There's no way some big dogs are going to be I5. I mean, with the description of the Warhounds, you'd except them to be sporting S4 A2 or something (they're giant, mutated, rabid wolves), but they're nothing of the sort. And since Wood Elves needed an extra unit to keep up with the other books, I figured that something small and cheap would be appreciated.
I don't know what you mean about re-directors with no other purpose. Maybe the Eagles? But everything else in the book is currently capable of other stuff, and none of them are purely expendable.

On Treekin/men and Wild Riders, I honestly hadn't noticed that the first and last of those were I3/5 (Treemen are I2, though). Treekin, I am quite confident, will not get shredded by Orcs and Ogres, though (S5, T5, and a 4+/5+ will see to that). I might consider bringing them back up to I3, just to keep things The Same.
I don't actually remember why I bumped Wild Riders to I6, though. Maybe so they could attack before Chaos Warriors and Knights, but I think that's more of my issue that those ironclad behemoths are somehow I5.
I have a similar complaint about Dryads, really. A Core unit with I6 is pretty extreme, but I figured, "eh, why not?". Until I noticed that Daemonettes are I5. Living incarnations of grace, lust, and speed are slower than tree-ladies...
But yes, I think I'll drop them back down again (but not Warhawk Riders; they gain scarcely any benefit from the +1I, and if you've got the reflexes to steer a giant bird through a forest, that makes you I6 in my book. Really, I just feel bad for the unit).

- The Ancient is a tricky monster in terms of pricing and ability, to be sure. A few rebuttals-

1. W8 seems to me to be far less extreme than T8. What do people want out of their monsters? To not get killed by a cannon Turn 1. And what does your enemy want out of his S4 unit with great weapons? To kill your monster. T8 doesn't allow either of those things, but W8 does.
Plus, Sphinxes are T8, and they're made of stone, which is a bit tougher than wood.

2. Ever try to set a living tree on fire? They're slower to burn than a human being is. If a tree is Flammable, then so are people.
It's just an unnecessary rule. I've seen Treemen bite it from a flaming Dwarf bolt thrower, cannon, etc., and it adds nothing but disappointment to the game.

3. I wouldn't bother comparing him to any Greater Daemon ever. Because those guys are more than a bit outdated. GW's Treeman is I2, so he's staying that way. And my version better be cheaper than a Great Unclean One, since that guy (and all his friends, really) is just terrible in 8th edition.

4. Regeneration was a way of increasing his durability a little bit (going from a 5+ to a 4+), but still sort-of-kind-of keeping in line with that fire-theme. It doesn't have to be there, but right now, I don't see it as crazy-good.

5. The current trends seem to be sticking to wizards who are lvl1-2, and then 3-4, so I'm staying in that pattern. I want to avoid a super-durable monster that's also a Lord-level caster, though, so 1-2 seems reasonable.
Increasing his points and making him an automatic lvl1 makes sense, but I'll probably just leave him as-is, so people can field him without the magic levels, in lower-point games.

Than you for all your comments, though. You've got me thinking about this stuff from some different angles.

 
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Thanks for the in depth reply. I really never new that the GW treeman was I2, i never really checked and assumed it was 3. Oops. I now understand that fluff<function bit but i must say i dont agree with it. Using the spear-staves as helbeards i can live with but where does the regen come from? If i played this with my gaming group and they asked why my EG had regen what do i say? 'Cause it makes them more durable?

By re directors with no other use i ment we arnt in need of more. A unit of 5 GR works as well as an eagle and i find that the hounds are a bit cut and dry. Maybe if they had a good synergy with the Orion build? We already have hounds of the hunt in our book, if slightly over costed, why not use them? Str 4, I4. WS 4, and forest spirit 12 points. As i dont see what they are there for in a list that other things carnt do. Maybe make them the only thing an alter can join with a 'Running with the pack' rule. It would counter act the alters weakness (no unit). Just an idea.

I think dryads wouldn't suffer from a drop in I to 5, but then what makes them different to other elves? All the elves in our army are I5, and we want them to be completely different to the elves as they can make an army list on there own. I think that wood elves should have several viable armies, not just avoidence and flank charge. The forest spirit change makes a forest spirit army viable and the hounds would make a hunt army viable.

Back to the TMA the reason i said that he should be able to be a lord level caster is because at his points in a 2k game you can have both him and a naked level 3! Then you have both a lord level mage and a super durable monster in two seperate models.And also it would make a all forest spirit army viable as they really need that dispellability that a level 2 carnt do. Maybe even give him access to beast. The regen is good because it means you ignore 50% of all cannon wounds and also it makes no sense fluff wise. I'd say take it off and make it a sprite for 35-50 pts and make the TMA 300 pts with level 1 base. Just because a lot of others do it doesn't mean you have to, also daemons go from level 1 to 3, so do vampires.

8 wounds will make him hard to take down, but without regen it will be easier. WS 8 isn't needed, also i dont see him as that good in combat. He is massive, i dont see hoow WS3 things would hit him on 5's, its not like he is blocking them. Make him 6 to make him different to a treeman, but 8 isn't need.

I think the TMA is vital to get right if an all tree army will be possible with out Drycha, who you will only use because she is level 3.>

 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Treemen are I2 because they're huge lumbering monsters made of wood. I mean, there's no way anyone would argue that Treebeard or the other Ents from Fangorn are as fast as the common human.

Eternal Guard are the guardians of Athel Loren, keeping the forest safe when the Spirits of the wood are sleeping through the cold winter months. The Eternal Guard have an intimate and supernatural connection to Athel Loren, represented here by their ability to recover from even the most grievous of wounds, the vitality of the Forest itself coursing through their veins.
If anyone wants to argue the point further, ask them why Phoenix Guard have a 4+ Ward save.

I'll probably want to re-do Orion and Drycha (I'll gladly take any other ideas for Special Characters, from those who have a deeper knowledge of the lore of the Asrai), now that you mention it.
The Hounds are really there to offer a unit that costs 35pts, more than anything else. One of the big tactical aspects to Wood Elves is out-maneuvering the enemy, so I figured that a fast unit that is also cheap would help achieve that best. It's not an essential aspect to the army, though. They could be changed or replaced, but I don't want to tack a bunch of weird rules onto a new unit; I don't trust my grasp of game-design enough to pull those kinds of tricks. Simplicity and consistency are my main concerns,

Dryads are S4 T4 with A2, a 5+ Ward, Fear, and ItP. They are vastly different from Elves, whether they're I5 or 6.
It's not a big deal; I don't intend on changing it, because it doesn't really make that much of a difference. I just think it's silly.

As for a lvl3+ Treeman, I'm still not convinced. The all-Forest Spirit army can do just fine without the extra +2 to Dispel that a Spellweaver offers; they're fast, tough, and their casters are even more so.
A Treeman with the Lore of Beasts? I'd have to say the answer to that is a resounding "no". He's a tree. He does not transform into a Dragon or other such stuff.
Giving him 4+ Regeneration makes him 16% more likely to negate a Wound than if he just had his 5+ Ward save. You say he's got a 50% chance to negate a cannonball with Regen, I say he's got a 33% chance to do the same without it. Also, it's not to hard to imagine how it could make sense. Bark knits, branches and vines re-grow. If magic stone statues can regenerate, magic trees can do so too!
Regeneration should probably cost around 35-40pts, since a 4+ Ward is 45pts (I'd say 35pts for an item or 40pts for a Spite, since it doesn't take up a slot).
And on the subject of magic levels, just because others do it means that I do have to do it; I'm trying to stick to the trends of new Army books. That will keep people's problems with my Fandex down to a minimum.
Daemons are outdated. But are you sure Vampires can't go up to lvl4?
I totally missed the WS8, though. Thanks for that. I think that was a relic of the original Fandex before I got ahold of it, which definitely suffered from a "my army sucks it needs to be cheaper and better and with more stuff and the best" sort of view. WS6 makes the most sense (though I assure you, he is totally blocking incoming enemy attacks).

But all of that considered, I don't think that Regeneration is a big deal, and that goes both ways. We'll cut it out.
And his point cost is something I've been considering. He's not as crazy-awesome as the other Big Monsters in the new books, but he's super-durable, a potential Wizard, and probably your General. I'll re-evaluate his cost.

As far as I'm concerned, though, you don't need a lvl3+ Wizard to make a tree-army work. Two or three Branchwraiths (who are really quite efficient Heroes) and a lvl2 Ancient should do just fine. As I said before, that +1 or 2 more to cast/dispel is not as big a deal as many would suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There. The list is updated. I think.
Also, I noticed that the Treemen only have 5 attacks, not 6. I dropped the Rare-version back down, but I kept the Lord-version at 6.

Something else I was considering: most Heroes have +1S and T compared to their rank-and-file equivalents. How much should a Branchwraith cost if she were S5 and T5? She'd be...a very solid character, and making Wood Elf stuff more expensive isn't really something I'd like to do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/13 20:17:14


 
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Thanks for anothe in-depth reply. Since it looks like its only us who wants to see this done, i think i should state that while i think i have a good understanding of the army. They are my first and only fantasy army and i have a good 2000 pts i think i should say i am only 14 (since yesterday ) and you probably have a better understanding then me.

Well, before i get down to buissiness, Phoenix Guard have a 4+ because they're blessed by there God (whos name escapes me) which it states specificly in there fluff. Eternal Guard are just elves that are trained to fight during winter when the forest carnt help. If you want them to be able to regen with out totally forgetting fluff i would surggest an enchanted item akin to the Harp or return Ariels blessing to the lore. Which by the way was one of the only reasons i ever really took the lore because it was so good. It also states wood elves are good healers in the fluff (have you guessed i like the fluff???). I think it could replace Oaken Armour as it gives the same benifit to glade guard and there like but wont be as over powered with tree spirits. Treekin with a 2+ armour, then ward. Treemen with a 1 up and dryads with a 5+ re-rollable. A single 4+ is worse on then two 5+'s and god help you if you cast it on WR. 3+ and a 5++!

How many magic using armies do you see with just level ones and twos? If any, do any spells get through against just 1 level 4 mage? Thought not. Branchwraiths make terrible wizards, level ones just arn't worth it, especially with LoAL high cast cost. Also i dont think a branchwraith needs to be T5, maybe STR 5, but not T5. See is no treekin. If you include the regen sprite then that could make her survivable but with 2 wounds its not really worth it and goes against her point. She adds some effective cheap pounch to a unit, and she is very good at it. Str 5 would make her better but she'd need a point increase, which we dont like. Also why she doesnt make a good wizard.

My problem with the TMA ancient at the moment is that you can take him with a level 3. I dont like this and it could be easily abused. Making the treeman level 1 would mean you could reasonably up the points. Also witth the high casting value of only lore he can take being a level 3 would be the only reliable way of getting the spells of without throwing a lot of dice at it. I wouldn't be happy throwing any less then 3 dice at even an 8+ with a level 1-2, and 4 at 11. With out access to a lord level treespirit a tree army would be effectivly locked out of any 10+ spells with out risking more then id like on a miscast.

Also taking a look at the magic items/sprites i see your a few under on items and some are a bit over priced or not that good. Blade of Oberon is 60pts for only a no save sword, when the codex come with that for 50 pts. Your paying 10 pts for a helbeard. Hunters talon could be over powered in the only build any 1 would use it as. Waywatchers come with sniper so the only people who'd use it will be scouts who'd use it with hagbane arrows for a 1 shot mage kill, id say keep with the old rules of no magical arrows or you will have no end of bitching from empire (warrior priests) and high elves (mages) and pritty much who a single STR 4 arrow has a chance of wounding.

Also while you cut down on so many of our items you still kept quite a few sprites. There all nice (although the despairs are just a slightly longer range wraithstone...) but i think that you dont need both ranged sprites. Most of the new codexs like 1 thing in the Magic items which does something and nothing thats like it. So you COULD swap one of them for the regen sprite. Also Arcane items are looking bare and i weep for the massive nurf to the WoWE (kinda of put by channeling, but still...) maybe keep one re-roll for whole attempt to keep us at one of the best magic defense in the game. Most of the new books have a kind of bound spell if your keeping with it, that could fit in somewhere, like a horn that cast call of the hunt? Amber pendent seems kinda ganky and there are a few other items like it around. Personally i liked our stone of the crystal meer because it was special, but thats just me.

A last note on wardancers. As you pointed out before with the glade guard a lot of STR 3 attacks dont do much and i think they should keep there +1 str on the charge. It'd be a shame to see them bounce of a lot of things because they are only str 3. Also there should be a wardancer magic item, just to give the option.

P.S I dont know if it was intentional but the kindreds bearly have any restrictions anymore. I can have WR noble with a 2+ save (armour of metoric steel) and the same with the wardancer. Alternitivly you can have a wardancer with the dawn spear to put a -1 to hit on any unt (hit first). Was this intended?

Alex.


 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





- on Phoenix Guard: exactly. They have it 'cause the book says so. So if the new Wood Elf book said "Eternal Guard have Regen 'cause blah blah hippie-wood magic blah", it's all good. You say they're "just there to fight in the winter, when the Forest Spirits can't help"? That doesn't sound like a "just" anything, to me. The Forest Spirits make up a good chunk of Athel Loren's armies, and most of the physical brawn within them. Without them, the elves are going to need some pretty wicked-awesome elves to make up that difference.

- +2 armour is not over powered on one unit versus another. It increases durability by 33%, regardless of what their armour is. Metal offers an almost identical spell (one of the reasons I'd consider pitching it, honestly), and it's not that awesome.

- as for Lord-level Treemen wizards, you're not going to move me on this one. Sorry.
A level4 will have a +2 on the Ancient. So the Ancient rolls three dice, gets a total of 12 (the average). The lvl4 still needs to roll three dice to beat him, getting a 14, which would put the Ancient ahead on dice, since he's got more Power Dice than the lvl4 has Dispel Dice.

- Branchwraiths cost 15pts more than a lvl1 Spellsinger for +1WS, S, T, +3I, +2A. a lvl1 is not as good as a lvl2, this is true.

- not many armies go without a lvl4 if they can help it, this is true. And I consider that a failing of the game. There's nothing stopping a player from fielding some Spellweavers/singers with a Guard bunker or two, and then fill up the rest of the list with Dryads and Treekin/men. If they want all trees for no reason beyond "it's cool", then I still don't see any reason to allow them to build a list that plays basically the same as one with Elves, too.

- an Ancient with no Spites and a naked lvl3 does not seem like a good plan to me.
Still, I will say this: the Ancient, as he stands, seems very much comparable to the Arachnarok, and thus he should cost a similar amount as-is. I'm thinking 300pts base is fair.

- you could look at the Blade of Oberon and say "10pts for a Halberd of Strife? Awful!". You could also say "+10pts for +1S and no shield? Awesome!".

- once I updated Waywatchers, I forgot about the Talon. Not sure if I should change it or drop it for something else. I considered a War Dancer weapon, but didn't want to over-stuff the weapon-section.

- I tried to keep a relatively large selection of Spites, since they're one of the things that makes the army unique (and the Despairs being like the Wraithstone was deliberate; trying to keep things simple, but also to offer some synergy).
You raise a good point about the ranged Spites; I just think the idea is so cool. If any army should boast multiple shooting attacks on multiple models, it's this one. Still, you may have a point (though I'd just chop it out, rather than add another).

- can you post the original text on the Blessing and on the Wand of the Wych Elm? I do not have the book.

- Wardancers are S4. They don't get +1S on the charge, but they have two hand weapons, ASF, KB, and a 5+ Ward.

- I never noticed, but the original Fandex had Wardancers with light armour. I took that out, now. As for Wild Riders, they have light armour, so the characters can have magic armour. Any restrictions saying otherwise just feels silly. He's already got a 4+ Ward, so if someone wants to spend 45pts on Silvered Steel for a 2+, and even 25pts more to make that re-rollable, that's fine with me. A tank-like character in a unit that fairs poorly in prolonged combat seems like a bad idea to me.
I'm trying to keep things simple and make them better. I can do both, often enough, just cutting out all of the silly restrictions.

 
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Since you dont have the book ill quote somethings that might help on the whole restrictions thing.

Wild Rider kindred
''ther character carries a spear and wears light armour. They may not choose additional weapons or armour (such as adding a shield), though they may choose a magic spear or suit of light armour to replace the respective item. Blah Blah Blah''

What this means is that the restriction was i can only take magical LIGHT armour and carn't take a shield.. This was good, as now can get a 2 + (mount + shield+helm+ cheapest heavy armour in BRB) and still have enough left for the dawn spear. You should do the same with almost all the kindreds by saying only magical light armour (except maybe EG kindred) to stop 2+ wood elves becoming the norm.

WoWE
quite simply ''any dispell attempts maybe re-rolled'' This is awesome!!!! this single handedly made us a force in the anti magic table just behind dwarves. Id say we need to keep it this way, maybe nurf it to once per phase and keep the channeling, 'cause we had nothing to help with offense.

Ariels Blessing
'''cast 9+. 18 inches. Any friendly unit, even in combat and even the mage herself, gain regen until your next magic phase''. Regen is fun and really helps any unit in our army, i used it alot and was the only spell apart from CotH that i used often. And this is why im adverse to giving any unit you want regen, its a special thing. In the rule book it says ''particularly hardy creatures can regenerate damage at a terrifying rate.'' Then can we add ''Oh, and hippie elves get it too, because we dont want to give them armour.'' doesnt sound right to me. I can also believe it wouldn't be unbelievable that there are healer sprites that could fix a forest spirit back up quickly. Its like the flammable rule. Its like your picking the rules you'd like to use and what would be effective. Not what would really make sense on the field.

Alex

**Edit** The reason i dont liek the blade of Oberon is because its so....Normal. Ill take a look through some of the codexs i own. Dark elves :sword of ruin. 50pts. no armour saves. Skaven: Warpforged blade. 50pts. No armour saves alowed. Lizard men: blade of *long lizard man name*. 65pts. No armour saves alowed. +1 str. Daemons. Etherblade. 50pts. No armour saves alowed. Common magic. Obsidian blade. 50pts. Guess what it does?

Do you get my point? Thats all but 1 fantasy codex i own (old ogres, lost magic page to vampire) that dont have an ignore saves weapon at around 50 pts. We are wood elves god dammit and we are special

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/14 21:46:18


 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





None of the new books try to restrict the kind of armour a character can wear/buy. It's a weird little antique of 7th. It's gotta' be streamline.
That said, how are you getting a 2+ by taking a helm and a suit of heavy armour? Those would both be Magic Armour.

The Wand certainly is good. I can't quite decide if it's too good (protecting you from bad Dispel rolls), or not as good as re-rolling one die (since you don't want to re-roll a 4, 5, or 6, and since it gives you another chance at IF). Still, I think I'll just switch it back, to keep it simple.

As far as Regeneration goes, here's the simple fact: Eternal Guard are a TERRIBLE unit in the current book. The only legitimate way to field them is by sticking a character into the unit with a huge magic item to keep them alive.
Now, what I see is that, with a similar ability of their own, Eternal Guard would become a decent unit.
But I don't want to give them a 5+ Ward; that blurs the line between them and Forest Spirits too much.
I thought about giving enemies a -1 To Hit them (about the equivalent of a 5+ save), a Fimbul Aura sort of thing, but then I considered that this wouldn't protect them from big spells or templates.
So then we come to Regeneration. And is it really so hard to imagine? They are the Eternal Guard. They're Eternal. Forever. Unceasing and Undying.
As I said before though, I won't be adding any more Spites. I mean, you go from a 5+ to a 4+. It's just not necessary.
And once more, how are trees flammable? Meat catches fire faster than green, living wood.

I mean, yes, I want to use rules that are effective. I'd even agree that, to a certain point, I'll set story-sense aside for the sake of mechanical-sense. But that's not the point here. The point is that it totally makes sense for Eternal Guard to regenerate, and none at all for a tree to be flammable.

As for the Blade, I see what you're saying. I guess my big problem with the Army Specific weapons is that they're weird and generally useless. But...eh. Whatev. I'll cook up something bizarre and mostly ineffective.

 
   
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Morphing Obliterator






I might be missing something here but I think that all wood elf characters should have a max armour save of 4+, whether mundane or magical, or 3+ at the very best.
This save would include armour, shields and any mount the elf is riding.

To me (I am not a wood elf player, this is just the impression I get) wood elves are all about agility and speed (even more so than high or dark elves) so encumbering themselves with a great suit of armour is not something they would consider.

However, to enforce the theme of quickness over heavy armour, they need some kind of special rule to make them slightly more survivable. Perhaps a 6+ ward in hand to hand combat only (it is easier to dodge a blade imo than an arrow or cannonball) to represent them dodging a blow?

I am not sure how viable this will be and it could even be unbalancing in large numbers as the elves get most of the benefit of carrying a shield (no increase in armour save though) without the penalty of what weapons you can use at the same time.

It goes without saying though that the elf loses the benefit of this extra save if they are carrying a shield as well.

Chaos Space Marines - Iron Warriors & Night Lords 7900pts

 
   
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Evasive Eshin Assassin





I don't see why this is such a big deal for people. The only Wood Elf models that have a good armour save are characters. And the only way they can do that is by buying a Helm, Enchanted Shield, the Armour of Silvered Steel--none of which are especially encumbering--or to buy one of the magic Heavy Armours.

Of those four options, the only one that stretches disbelief is the last one, and that's more of a problem with the rules in the main book, not the Wood Elf one.

No extra rules. No weird restrictions. Wood Elves will have the same odd quirks that other armies have, so that when those quirks get worked out, all the armies will benefit, instead of all of them except a handful, which develop new odd quirks because of the weird restriction's reaction to the change.

 
   
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Hallowed Canoness





Between

If you're still looking for character ideas, I'll share this one;

Just an idea I had after realising that one of my third-party elven spellcasters sits perfectly on the shoulder of my Treeman model. I was going to just use them as a treeman ancient, but then I remembered TAs can't be spellcasters. So, here's what I ended up with. Thoughts appreciated.

Alys, the Forest's Daughter 200 points + mount
There was once born a child. Her parents were artisans, her family peons of the forest. To these simple origins was born a changeling. Some ancient part of the forest had made its nest in her soul. For years, the only sign of this was her white hair, pale even for the fairest of the Asrai.
This changed when she turned thirteen. She had not yet taken to her full growth, for the Asrai age as mortals until they enter their adult phase. It was at the cusp of womanhood that the child was taken. Lured by the cry of a wounded beast, she flitted from tree bough to branch, further and deeper into the forest. There, as the plants grew strange she found the origin of her spirit. The forest-fragment that had bonded with her had been summoned to rejoin its greater self, but the child was not willing to let go her mortal frame.
The child was tested. She underwent trials that would destroy experienced spellweavers, but the spirit of the forest within her carried her through them, binding itself deeper and stronger to her soul. Still, the forest would not let her go to return to her mortal life.
The child lives there still, her body frozen in time as her trials continue. Sometimes, these trials bring her out of the deep forest, when a foe the forest believes may free its spirit-fragment appears. The child both anticipates and dreads these battles, for she does not want to die - yet there is a part of her that harbours a growing desire to be free and rejoin its greater self.
When she appears on the battlefield, she calls the greatest forest spirits to her aid, riding atop the shoulder of a treeman ancient whose age rivals that of Adanhu, Durthu and Rhydysann. Othertimes, a great beast comes to her aid, and in the most dire of battles, where her power is more important than her testing, she is born upon the back or the oldest of forest dragons, Cerdaneu, whose magic rivals her own in power.




Weapons and Armour: Alys has a shortbow and carries Dagger of Rituals. She is accompanied by a Confusion of Deceits. The Great Beast is accompanied by a Befuddlement of Mischiefs and a Muster of Malevolents. A Treeman Ancient is accompanied by a Cluster of Radiants and a Lamentation of Despairs. Cerdaneu is accompanied by a Murder of Spites and a Pageant of Shrikes.
Special Rules;
Alys - Forest Strider, Forest Spirit, Forest Stalker, Bond.
Great Beast - Forest Spirit, Scaly skin (4+), Unbreakable, Ethereal, Unstable, Random Attacks (D6).
Treeman Ancient - Forest Spirit, Scaly Skin (3+), Stubborn, Strangle-roots, Flammable, Large Target, Tree Singing, Terror.
Cerdaneu - Fly, Large Target, Scaly Skin (3+), Terror, Venomous Breath, Forest Spirit, Loremaster (Athel Loren).

Magic:Alys and Cerdaneu are level 4 Wizards. Alys may choose spells from the Lore of Beasts or the Lore of Athel Loren, and may divide her wizard levels between the two. Cerdaneu chooses spells from the Lore of Athel Loren.

Bond: Alys shares a special bond with Forest Spirits. Any Forest Spirit unit she has joined (including her mount) may choose to suffer a wound she suffers in her place. For each wound drawn in this way, place a token by the unit or model. At the end of the phase, these wounds are restored on a d6 roll of 5+ in the same manner as a successful casting of the Regrowth spell.

The Dagger of Rituals: Alys may use this dagger as a hand weapon. However, its true power lies in its use as a casting aid. When Alys casts a spell with Irresistable Force, she may elect to take a wound instead of suffering a Miscast. This wound cannot be drawn across the bond.

A Confusion of Deceits: These little folk flit around their host constantly, blurring her image and even snatching arrows from the sky. Attackers directing their attacks towards the character must halve their weapon skill, and the wearer has a 3+ Ward save against missile attacks.

Incidentally, if you want more feedback on your book, you could try cross-posting it to Asrai.org and have a look at some of the other stuff people on there have come up with.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
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I have been meaning to get the Fandex over there; I just have other projects that take priority right now.

The character concept is cool. I'll consider something like that, if I get around to making Special Characters.
I'd have to do some heavy re-writing, to update her to this book.
The only thing that would cause me concern is the Bond ability; it makes her immune to damage as long as she's with some Forest Spirits, and then even that awesome ability is made better when they all get a chance to heal after the phase. That right there should cost 100pts easy. Maybe she can pass wounds on to other units on a 3+, where it sticks (no saves allowed).

 
   
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She's toughness two, and as long as she's mounted on a monster I don't believe she can actually join units.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Yes, but she could choose to not be mounted, correct? And even mounted, the potential for Life-shenanigans seems high.

 
   
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Hallowed Canoness





Between

No, she MUST choose one of those mounts, just like any Glamourweave under the official book.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Okay, well, that's more or less okay. It basically just gives her a Treeman's attacks/gives the Treeman her Toughness.
Still a bit on the wonky side, but I like the feel.

 
   
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Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

Just one question.

When you look at the dragon characteristics in the mounts section it has scaly scin 3+, but when you look at the dragon profile in the rare units ection it has scaly skin 4+. Is it just a mistake or is suposed to be Cethin-Har stronger than other dragons. I myself find option 2 more reasonable. For Cethin-Har is a very unique dragon, an ancient dragon that carries sisters of twilight to battle. There fore it is surely more experinced and stronger than any toher dragon. I feel like Cethin-Har needs something that would give him an advantage over other dragons. Why not if you give 8 wounds to ancient treeman, for his great age uniquess. Yet you may deploy more than one acient treeman, however you can deploy only one Cethin-Har. This means Cethin-Har is even more unique.

My idea is that Cethin-Har would have ws of 7 , 6 atacks and
a scaly skin 3+ instead of 4+. Additionally give him a special tail atack that would be resolved by placing a large blast marker over the center of the dragon. All enemies that are at least partly covered receive a strength 5 hit.

Of course then it's point cost would need to be increased to 460pt , 500pt or even more. Creatures that are extremly rare and powerfull need to be worth a lot of points.

I'm intrested what do you think of my concept and how would you make the Cethin-Har special if at all.


sergeant of the devestators 
   
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Evasive Eshin Assassin





Well, a few things:

1. @Furyou Miko: good gods above I just now noticed the stats on that Dragon. No, no, and no. WS, S, T, W9? A8? How in the name of everything ever is this dragon better than every other monster in all of Warhammer? Stronger than a Bloodthirster, tougher than a sphinx, more woulds than an Arachnarok, and more attacks than a Hydra.
Should this dragon have a leg-up over other monsters? Sure, why not. But it should not be better than all of them in every way. Far from it.

2. @devastator 7777777: that was just an error on my part. I believe I decided upon a 3+ being the standard, since they got some other (rather serious) downgrades. Thanks for catching that, though I'm sure there's a lot more typos in there.
Cethin-Har and all the other Special Character stuff has yet to be touched upon. The people I play with don't field Special Characters, because they often lead to rather one-sided games. I assure you that when/if I get around to it, the Special-dragon will have a little something extra, probably akin to the differences between the High Elf dragons.
The tail attack is too good, however. S5 on a template that it can use every turn? Even if he had to give up his extra attacks, I'd say no. Maybe +1WS, +1T, and boosted poison.

 
   
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Poland

I would say +1ws, +1A,+1T and effective poison. I'm addidng one atack to distinguish between a special charcater and a rare unit. I fell like dragon should have toughness of 6, because hydra has T5 and 4+ Regen and is worth only 195p

+2S . Giving it +2S strength would be nice since wood elfs don't have anything with S7 a part from orion, but that's only in the turn he charged.

Poison attack.(All the dragons) Soporific fumes that penetrate the armour, but don't burn the skin or lungs. Only the toughest and most resistant organism can withstand it and get rid of the poison. Target must pass a toughness test without armour saves allowed or is slained. You will rarely kill a character with this ability due to look out sir special rule, but it allows you to kill monsterous infanrty, multi wounded infantry and cavalry. Multi wounded infantry and cavalry are very rare and monsterous infantry have a high toughness so the ability will not be op.


Of course dragon with WS7 , A6,S7,T6 can be worth a lot of points. In the current wood elf rule book it is worth 320pt and it has W6. So I guess WS7 , A6,S7,T6,W5 would be worth something like 440pt. Keep in mind that with W5 Cethin-Har will not be a monster that is inpossible to defeat. That's way it's current profile is pretty fair.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/24 23:20:57


sergeant of the devestators 
   
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The Hydra is the most under-priced monster in the game, so let's not compare him to anyone (I used him as the basis for the Forest Dragon, but I think I added 30-45pts before I did anything else).

S7 isn't exactly a common thing. And I don't consider it exactly necessary.

I don't get the Poison Attack idea. Is that its breath weapon, or what happens when it rolls a 6 to Hit, or what?
Either way, I think it's (a) too potent and (b) not necessary. I was thinking more along the lines of its attacks auto-wound on a 5 or a 6 to Hit.

Finally, I'd point out that the current Wood Elf book is terrible, not just because the numbers aren't high enough, but because they cost too much for what they currently are. 320pts is too much for what you get out of that monster right now.

I'm thinking +1WS, +1S, and +1T would be pretty fair; he'd be close in raw power to normal dragons, but he'd still be fast, have Poison, and a Ward save.
Keep in mind, my Forest Dragon is not nearly as physically powerful as normal ones; they've gained something in becoming extensions of Athel Loren, but the forest's enchantments have their costs as well.


 
   
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Hallowed Canoness





Between

lol, just a note... Cerdaneu, the Dragon Alyss rides is just a standard Emperor Dragon out of the Storm of Magic book with the Forest Dragon breath weapon and Athel Loren spells.

You do remember that you have to be playing at least a 4000 point game before you can include it, yes?



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Ha! Totally saw the 325pts above the line and thought that was his cost.

Yeah, okay, he might be fair, then. It might actually be cool to offer a character option for such large games (especially since the character can be fielded in smaller ones too).
But did you include the cost of the Spites? Heh. It barely matters, but hey, that might boost his minimum game size to 4100!

What are some Special Characters from the Wood Elves books? There's Drycha, the Sisters, Orion...

 
   
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Hallowed Canoness





Between

Current;
Orion, Drycha, Sisters of Twilight

Old;
Ariel, Naieth, Skaw, Scarloc, some kind of werebear beastmaster whose name I forget. Think there were more as well.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

Getting back to dragons.

(All dragons)Poison is just a breath weapon. All models affected need to pass a toughness test or are slain.(No armour saves allowed).

Since wood elfs don't have anything with strength or toughness of 7+ and they will not get anything with toughness of 7+, it would be nice if they would get one figure with strength of 7. I would give S7 to Cethin-Har, but perhaps there is other figure that could get it.

sergeant of the devestators 
   
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Eh. I considered it. The thing is, most dragons don't actually have potent breath weapons. S2-4. Meh. Right now, it's S3 no armour. Maybe "suffers a wound on a 5+ with no armour" would be better?

I don't think all armies have access to S/T7 models. And besides, there's the W8 Treeman ancient...

As for Special Characters: eh. Not really motivated to work on them. But if I were to make any one of the the Biggest and the Baddest, it would have to be Orion.

 
   
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Poland

I agree that wood elfs don't need S7 if they have W8. However the poisonous breath definetaly does't need to be weakened. S3 no armour saves is like average and hydra has strength 5 Breath. Two questions. Does the spell fairy fire change the unit's facing? Does the standard of Ariel allow unit to fire and flee any number of times in phase or only stand and shoot any number of times in a phase?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing. Why do waywatchers no longer lay traps which would count as difficult terrain for every unit charging waywatchers?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/29 11:23:56


sergeant of the devestators 
   
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- Hydra's have a breath weapon with a Strength equal to their Wounds. At S5, it's better than Poisonous Breath. At S4, it's probably about equal to it. And from there, it's worse.
I'd consider "Wounds on a 5+", which would be the same versus T4, worse against T3 and less, and better versus T5 and more.

- Good call on the Faerie Fire, though. It's too ambiguous. The original idea was that yes, it changes the unit's facing. This has been the Problem Spell out of the bunch; it's potential for abuse is...high.
Still open for suggestions. Maybe if it could move D6" and could wheel, so you could change it's front arc a little, but not turn it completely around?

- the Banner says Stand and Shoot any number of times per phase, and that's what it means.
Besides, once you Fire and Flee, you're fleeing, so you have to keep fleeing.
Although...now that I look at it, the writing would be clearer if it just gave them the Quick to Fire rule. That was the original idea, anyway, and the current wording might cause some conflicts with unusual situations like Random Movement.

- Waywatchers laying traps makes sense, but giving them the option to trade Killing Blow for Sniper makes even more sense. Both could work, but keeping them cheap is my #1.
Besides, there are a lot of units that could lay traps, but currently, the only ones who do have the word "Trapper" in their name.

 
   
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Since I am returning to Wood Elves this thread reminds me of and identical one that happened on the Wood Elf forum asrai.org. There were alot of great ideas being tossed around (nothing to OP if I remember correctly) but personally I remember these being my top changes that I wish/needed to occur :

-Point reductions for units across the whole book (not every single one but you catch my drift)

-Whole army can march and shoot without penalty for moving (basically what we have now except we will be that much faster).

-Whole army has Glade Guard Bows, potentially (for less of a points decrease) they get x2 shots at short range.

-Level 1 and 2 spellsingers can take Lore of Life, Beasts or Shadow along with Lore of Athel Loren

-Fix the Lore of Athel Loren

-Rule to help our skirmisher CC units be able to take on big blocks, a good idea was "Woodland Ambush" we surprise the enemy when charging that they lose steadfast for the first round of combat.

-Waywatchers (if they stay at their current points cost) get "Hawkeye" rule, where if they role a Killing blow result on Monstrous infantry or Cavalry it does D3 wounds to make them more universally effective, get to appear anywhere like they used to be able to and have the sniper option. Maybe a little much but you have to remember its a T3 model with no armor.

-Forest Spirits get permanent ward save thats not negated by magic weapons.

-Eternal Guard fighting style gives them a permanent 4+ wardsave and bump their strength up to 4, still only stubborn if HB joins the unit.

-Gauntlet of Sprites: (this is just a ridiculous magic item that I thought just would be fun to test out ). +1 armor save, The gauntlet is crafted from the oak of ages itself and no matter the person who wears it its always a perfect fit, sprites inhabit this gauntlet and can be periodically unleashed by the wearer. It is a breath weapon with the stats of S2, 4+ poison that always uses the template, even in CC. When after the first shot role a D6. At the start of the shooting phase on the role of a 4+ you may fire the breath weapon again, if fired twice the next turn you have to roll a 5+ to activate it. From then on you have to roll a 6 to fire it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/31 20:54:33


19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

I insist that the dragon's breath attack maintains strength 3 with no armour saves allowed. For dragons breath weapon was ment to be used against infantry not monsters.

Faerie Fire. Imagine a big unit moving sideways, soldiers bumping on each other. Such a ludicrous situation may not occur in real life. Therefore a unit needs to change it's facing. However the casting difficulty increased and maximum angle of turn limited to 90 degrees. So you can not change unit's facing by 180 degrees and charge from the back.

If you want to keep waywatchers low on points maybe they could be upgraded for an additional 6 points per model to trappers.

Wood elf bows already shoot at strength 4 at short range. If they could 2 multiple shoot it would be op.

The gauntlet of sprites is a fair weapon, as far as it would be worth a lot of points.

I would like to point out that wood elf wizards may not be upgraded to a lore masters, which is a con. Wood elf should be equall or a bit weaker in magic then dark elf which already have a very strong wizard on dragon.



sergeant of the devestators 
   
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Dont bother insisting. He is stubborn when he is set on an idea, regenerating EG and all

Dark elves dont have access to lore master outside of special characters anyway. IF Warp would re-implament the wand of wych elm then yes, wood elves to meet there place of magic among the elves. I agree without it our wizards are a little lackluster, i think we should be better then empire wizards for one thing.

Who says the breathweapon is for use on infantry? You, i dont see it in the book. Its noxious fumes, a hydra is affect just as much as an orc, i'd say more with all those noses! Remember that breath weapons can only be used one, so you have a 1 in 3 chance to cause a single wound to a hydra *gasp*. In combat its not as good as normally attacking unless against knights *i think* so yes, it would work better against infantry because there is more of them. Its not a devine rule, its logic.

 
   
 
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