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Well, since Impact Hits are based on your Strength, I don't see how +1 to your base Strength would do anything except effect your Impact Hits.
Antlers grant +1S. They're also the reason for dealing D3 Impact Hits. That's like giving a model +1T and forcing opponents to re-roll successful wounds on him because he's really, really tough. Either one of those rules would be sufficient; I feel like doubling-up like that is more complicated/awesome than it needs to be.

Honestly, something like S4 (+1 on the charge), A3, no Impact seems like the simplest way to go.

And isn't 55pts really cheap as it is? I was thinking 60pts to start, but 70 is looking more likely.

You have to compared to other monstrous cavalry out there, and at my suggested statline they aren't as good a mount as others. Like Mournfangs, Skullcrushers, etc...

Also depends on the rider. Skullcrushers and Mournfangs have riders with 3 attacks, one at Str4, the other with str5 magical attacks.

Unless the rider also has 3 str4ish attacks, along with a cumulative armor save of 3+ or better there's no way they're worth 60 pts each. I think my 55 is still a little high.

Seems to me that stags knights should be around the same power and cost as Demigryphs.

I'd go with slightly worse armor (3+), forest strider and fast cav.
Mournfangs have leadership issues, blood crushers have kiting issues. I would see wood elf monstrous cav as a less durable but more mobile unit.

The difference between special and rare does matter. For Warriors of chaos, you're choosing between hell cannons and monstrous cav. You give up your only really shooting options for them.

@Grey Templar: I have been comparing them to other Monstrous Cavalry (see last dozen posts or so).

Figure in that these are highly mobile and have a Ward Save. They don't have much for armour, but I was thinking that a 4+ Ward would put them over the top in terms of durability; the one area I think they should really suffer.

Here's what I've got so far:

Wild Rider
WS5 BS4 S4 T3 I5 A2 W1 Ld9
Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Forest Stalker, Frenzy, Talismanic Tattoos, The Wild Hunt
Great Stag
WS4 BS-- S5 T4 I4 A3 W3 Ld7
Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Forest Stalker

I think it'd be cool if the Stags had some benefit on the charge, either a bonus to Strength or Impact Hits. But they shouldn't be more offensive than the other monsters, so I'm thinking of dropping to S4 or A2 or A1, depending on the option.
The other things to consider is whether or not to make Wild Riders A2 base, and whether or not to keep Talismanic Tattoos as-is, improving their Forest Spirit save to a 4+, or to change it to MR2 or something. Or drop it all together, I suppose.

If we are to make stag knights less durable then maybe drop them to 2 Wounds or just 4+ armour. However to match them to Demigryphs we would have to make them more offensive. Give them both S5 and impact hits.

devestator 7777777 wrote:
If we are to make stag knights less durable then maybe drop them to 2 Wounds or just 4+ armour. However to match them to Demigryphs we would have to make them more offensive. Give them both S5 and impact hits.

Demigrphs don't have impact hits. It's 3 S5 attacks, and 1 S4 from the rider (with either lance or halberd).
It's not really all that offensive.

-Matt

Demigryph:

1 S5/6 attack
3 S5 AP attacks

Wild Rider:

3 S5 attacks
1-3 S4-5 attacks and maybe Impact or +S on the charge

Going down to W2 feels like the least logical thing to do. Monstrous Cavalry have W3 because they're big. Great Stags are big. They might not be as strong/tough, but no one can argue that they lack mass.
Really, I'm thinking 6+ for Light Armour, +1 for being mounted. A 5+/5+ is more durable than a 3+ against S4 and up, and as durable versus S3 and down.

Wild riders don't have 3 attacks but 2. Secondly demigryphs are more heavily armoured that's why stag knights need to be able to deal more damage. 1 movement is't a very big difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stags should have S5. There will be fine with 2 attacks if they get impact hits.

If you'll recall, I've been considering whether or not to give Wild Riders 2 attacks base, with Frenzy on top. That's what I had them at in my first drafts, but I knocked them down one to make them cheaper.
Since they may be riding giant monster-elk, I'm reconsidering it. As said earlier.

If you're going to compare these two units, let's actually compare them, rather than cherry-pick examples to support your view:

Wild Riders differ from Demigryph Knights as follows:

+1WS
+2I
+1A and Frenzy
+1Ld
-2 or 3 armour
+2 Ward
-1S on the charge or -1S the turn after the charge
Horns of the Wild Hunt
Immune to Psychology
Forest Stalkers
Talismanic Tattoos

So, the Knights have more armour, you say? I see a 2 to 3-point drop in armour to gain 2-points in Ward saves, which are superior to Armour. So, assuming the Knights took lances, they take 16% less wounds versus S1-5. If they took Halberds, or their opponent is S6+, Wild Riders take as few or less wounds.
The only other advantage they have is being S6 on the charge or S5 all the time, versus S5 on the charge and S4 after. But then you add in all this other stuff, and Wild Riders still come out miles ahead.

+1M isn't huge, but +1M and Fast Cavalry is. Especially on a unit that hits this hard.

How would monstrous cavalry benefit from fast cavalry rule? It allows you to reform any number of times in a phase and that's pretty much all.

Demigryphs are 58 points per model.

They have 2+ armour.

vs S3 and lower this armour will hold 83,3% times.
vs S4 66,6% times
vs S5 50% times
vs S6 33,3% times

Assuming stag knights will get 5+ armour save and 5+ ward save.

vs S3 and lower the combination of ward save and armour will hold 55,6% times
vs S4 44,4% times
vs S5 and more 33,3% times

agianst S1-5 demigryphs have 1,5 better survivality.

The demigryph model at the charge grants 3 S5 armour piercing attacks, 1 S6 and one armour piercing stomp with S5.

That will be fine if wild riders will have 2A frenzy and Stag 1 S5 attack ,and d3 impact hits.

devestator 7777777 wrote:
How would monstrous cavalry benefit from fast cavalry rule? It allows you to reform any number of times in a phase and that's pretty much all.

...you're kidding, right? You don't think that being able to move 18", as long as your path is wide enough to allow one of your models through, and end the moving facing any direction you want at all is a pretty significant boon? You can force your opponent to charge you at horrendous angles, like perpendicular to your main battle line, or just move out of their line of sight all together. On a unit of 5 Glade Riders, it's annoying. On Monstrous Cavalry, it would be terrifying.

devestator 7777777 wrote:
Demigryphs are 58 points per model.

They have 2+ armour.

Unless they took halberds, which is a common choice from what I've seen.

devestator 7777777 wrote:
That will be fine if wild riders will have 2A frenzy and Stag 1 S5 attack ,and d3 impact hits.

Yeah, I'm thinking about it. 1+d3 at S5, or 2/3+d3 at S4, or 3 S5+1 on the charge or something.

Is there a link to the actual Fandex? Im having trouble finding where all the rules are...

Here it is (though it's still missing some of the latest updates):

Wood Elves

Army Wide Rules:

Asrai Archery: the warriors of Athel Loren are some of the finest archers in the Old World, having trained with the longbow for many decades or even centuries.
Wood Elf units with this rule do not suffer a penalty for moving and shooting.

Asrai Longbows: many Wood Elf longbows are exceptionally well-crafted and maintained, often being heirlooms made from the heartwoods of ancient trees.
An attack made with an Asrai Longbow is resolved at S4 at close range.

Forest Walkers: the Asrai are truly one with the trees, moving amongst them freely, and speaking to them in a tongue as old as the hills.
Wood Elf units have the Forest Strider rule. Additionally, all players in any game involving Wood Elves must roll 2d6 for Mysterious Forests. The Wood Elf player chooses which of the dice applies. On a double, the Wood Elf player may choose any result. If there is more than one Wood Elf player in a game, the player whose turn it is or whose turn is coming soonest when the roll was made decides.
Forest spirits never suffer any wounds and never take psychology tests due to Mysterious Forests.

Special Rules:

Aerial Agility: the War Hawks, Great Eagles, and even the mighty Forest Dragons have spent their entire lives in the canopies of Athel Loren, and are not hindered by vine or branch.
Units with this special rule can fly through forests without penalty.

Bodyguard: Wood Elf Highborns go to battle accompanied by the Eternal Guard, the finest warriors the Asrai can muster, sworn to protect their commander at all costs.
A unit with this special rule may be taken as a Core choice if the army general is a Highborn. The Highborn must join one of these units and can never leave it.

Fire and Flee: the Asrai do not engage their opponents in frontal assault, instead choosing to loose volleys of arrows from the trees, and then retreating deeper into the woods before their enemies can offer retribution.
Units with this rule may choose to elect both to Stand and Shoot! and Flee! as one charge reaction. Resolve the Stand and Shoot! reaction before the Flee! reaction. Note that, even if the charging unit is forced to make a Panic test and flees, the unit with this special rule must still flee as well.

Forest Spirit: amongst the allies of the Wood Elves are otherworldly fey beings, awe-inspiring and terrible to behold. Even the Asrai themselves are ill at ease when the children of the Forest are near.
Units with this rule have a 5+ ward save, cause Fear, are Immune to Psychology, and any close combat attacks made by these units count as magical. Forest Spirit characters may not join units that are not Forest Spirits. Wood Elf characters that are not Forest Spirits may not join units that are Forest Spirits.

Forest Stalkers: Waywatchers wear cleverly woven raiments that make them nearly impossible to see, allowing them to come within arm’s reach of their foes without ever giving away their position.
Ranged attacks against a unit with this rule incur a -1 penalty. Additionally this unit has the Scout ability except that there is no minimum distance required between them and the enemy. Waywatchers may not declare a charge in the first turn as they come out from hiding.

Horns of the Wild Hunt: when the ancient, enchanted hunting horns of the Wild Riders are wound, a great and primal joy leaps up in the hearts of the Asrai, and a great confusion clouds the minds of those they would hunt. When the Wild Hunt is full upon them, Wild Riders will not cease in their pursuit until they or their quarry lay dead.
A unit of Wild Riders always counts as having a musician. Any friendly unit within 10” of a Wild Rider Unit counts as having a musician. Any enemy unit with a musician within 10” of a Wild Rider unit is treated as though they do not have a musician.

Lethal Shot: Waywatchers can shoot with such uncanny accuracy that even plate armour is no protection, and they can pick out a commander from his fellows with neigh-unto supernatural accuracy.
A unit of Waywatchers may either have the Killing Blow or the Sniper special rule with attacks made with their longbows. They may choose at the beginning of each shooting phase, and before they make a Stand and Shoot! or Fire and Flee! reaction.

Rake: War hawks sweep over their prey, plowing through enemy ranks with their razor-sharp talons.
A model with this rule inflicts a single automatic hit with a strength equal to the War Hawk’s strength to one enemy unit it moves over when it flies.

Spear Staves: Eternal Guard wield double-bladed spears in their sacred vigil, cutting down the enemies of Athel Loren in a graceful, twirling dance.
Special weapon. Requires two hands. Spear Staves grant +1 Strength and improve the wielders’ armour saves by 1. Additionally, they grant the Fight in Extra Ranks special rule on any turn the wielder did not charge.

Strangle Root: Treemen can cause their roots to grow at an alarming rate, shooting out of the ground to entangle foes.
A model with this rule has a shooting attack with a range of 12”. Place the center of the small round template anywhere within this range and within the model’s line of sight. The template scatters D6”. Any model under this template takes a S3 hit and gains the Always Strikes Last special rule until the end of the Wood Elf player’s next shooting phase.

Talismanic Tattoos: the War Dancers and Wilder Riders have many inking rituals that invoke luck and protection.
A model with this rule has a 6+ Ward save. If a model with this special rule already has a Ward save, it improves by 1.

Lords:

Highborn* 140pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 7 7 4 3 3 8 4 10
Special Rules: Asrai Archery, Fire and Flee, Forest Walkers
May choose up to 100pts of magic items and Spites from the Common Magic Items, Wood Elf Magic Items, and Spite sections.
May choose any Kindred.
Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow, light armour
Weapon (one choice only):
Spear +3pts
Great weapon +6pts
Extra Hand weapon +6pts
Armour:
Shield +3pts
*For every Highborn in a Wood Elf army, one unit of Eternal Guard may be chosen as Core. The Highborn must join this unit and can never leave it.


Spellweaver 225pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 3 5 1 9
Special Rules: Asrai Archery, Fire and Flee, Forest Walkers, Level 3 Wizard
May choose up to 100pts of magic items and Spites from the Common Magic Items, Wood Elf Magic Items, and Spite sections.
May choose any Kindred.
May be upgraded to a Level 4 Wizard for +35pts
Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow

Spellweavers cast spells from the Lore of Athel Loren, Beasts, Life, Light, or Shadow

Treeman Ancient 275pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 6 3 6 6 8 2 6 9
Forest Spirit, Forest Walkers, Large Target, Terror, Scaly Skin (3+), Strangle Root, Stubborn
May choose up to 100pts of Spites.
May be upgraded to a Level 1 Wizard for +50pts
May be upgraded to a Level 2 Wizard for +85pts
Equipment: Gnarled fists

Treemen Ancients cast spells from the Lore of Athel Loren


Heroes:

Noble 80pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 6 6 4 3 2 7 3 9
Special Rules: Asrai Archery, Fire and Flee, Forest Walkers
May choose up to 50pts of magic items and Spites from the Common Magic Items, Wood Elf Magic Items, and Spite sections.
May choose any Kindred.
One Noble in a Wood Elf army may carry the Battle Standard for +25pts. He may carry a magic banner (no point limit), though if he does so he may not purchase any other magic items.
Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow, light armour
Weapon (one choice only):
Spear +2pts
Great weapon +4pts
Extra Hand weapon +4pts
Armour:
Shield +2pts

Spellsinger 100pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 2 5 1 8
Special Rules: Asrai Archery, Fire and Flee, Forest Walkers, Level 1 Wizard
May choose up to 50pts of magic items and Spites from the Common Magic Items, Wood Elf Magic Items, and Spite sections.
May choose any Kindred.
May be Upgraded to a Level 2 Wizard for +35pts
Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow

Spellsingers cast spells from the Lore of Athel Loren, Beasts, Life, Light, or Shadow

Branchwraith 65pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 6 4 4 4 2 8 3 8
Forest Spirit, Forest Walker
May choose up to 50pts of Spites
May be upgraded to a Level 1 Wizard for +50pts
Equipment: Razor-sharp talons

Branchwraiths cast spells from the Lore of Athel Loren

Mounts:

Elven Steed 12pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 3 0 3 3 1 3 1 5
Fast cavalry, Forest Walkers

Warhawk 30pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
1 4 0 4 3 2 5 1 5
Aerial Agility, Flying, Hit-and-Run, Rake

A character riding a Warhawk may join a unit of War Hawk riders.

Great Eagle 50pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
2 5 0 4 4 3 4 2 8
Aerial Agility, Flying

A character riding a Great Eagle may join a unit of War Hawk riders.

Unicorn 30pts (Glamourweave Kindred only)
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
10 5 0 4 4 1 5 2 8
Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Forest Walkers, Impale, Magic Resistance 2

Impale: a Unicorn gains +2 strength in the round it charges.

Great Stag 50pts (Wild Rider Kindred only)
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 5 0 5 4 2 4 2 7
Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Forest Walkers, Impact Hits (d3)

Forest Dragon 250pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
8 6 0 5 5 5 35 6 8
Aerial Agility, Fly, Forest Spirit, Large Target, Poisoned Attacks, Poisoned Breath, Scaly Skin (3+), Terror

Poisonous Breath: Forest Dragons have a breath weapon that is resolved at S3. No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused by Poisonous Breath.

Core:

Glade Guard 12pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Asrai Archery, Fire and Flee, Forest Walkers
Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow, light armour
Unit size: 10+
May Skirimish for +1pt/model.
Musician +6pts
Standard Bearer +12pts
May carry a magic standard worth up to 25pts
Lord’s Bowman +6pts

Glade Riders 22pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Asrai Archery, Fast Cavalry, Fire and Flee, Forest Walkers
Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow, spear, light armour, Elven Steed
Unit size: 5+
Musician +6 pts
Standard Bearer +12pts
May carry a magic standard worth up to 25pts
Horse Master +6pts

Dryads 12pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 0 4 4 1 6 2 8
Forest Spirits, Forest Walkers, Skirmish
Equipment: Razor sharp claws
Unit size: 10-20
Branch Nymph +12pts

Scouts 15 pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Asrai Archery, Fire and Flee, Forest Walkers
Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow, light armour
Unit size: 5-10

Hunting Hounds 7pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
7 4 0 3 3 1 3 1 5
Forest Walkers
Equipment: Fangs and Claws
Unit size: 5+

Special:

Spite Swarms 35pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 3 2 2 2 5 4 5 10
Forest Spirit, Forest Walker, Hover, Poison Attacks, Swarm
Unit size: 2-10 bases

War Dancers 16pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 6 4 4 3 1 6 1 9
Always Strike First, Skirmish, Killing Blow, Talismanic Tattoos, Ward save (6+)
Equipment: Two hand weapons
Unit size: 5-20
Musician +7pts
Blade Singer +14pts
A Blade Singer may take up to 25pts total in magic items and Spites

Wild Riders 33pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 5 4 4 3 1 5 1 9
Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Forest Walkers, Frenzy, Horns of the Wild Hunt, Talismanic Tattoos
Equipment: Spear, light armour, Elven Steed
Unit size: 5+
Standard Bearer +13pts
May carry a magical standard worth up to 50pts
Wild Hunter +13pts
A Wild Hunter may take up to 25pts total in magic items and Spites

Eternal Guard 15pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 4 3 3 1 6 1 9
Asrai Archery, Bodyguard, Forest Walkers, Regeneration (5+), Stubborn
Equipment: Spear Stave, light armour
Unit size: 10+
Musician +7pts
Standard Bearer +14pts
May carry a magical standard worth up to 50pts
Guardian +14pts
A Guardian may take up to 25pts total in magic items and Spites

Treekin 65pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 0 5 5 3 2 3 8
Forest spirit, Scaly Skin 4+
Equipment: Bludgeoning limbs
Unit size: 3+
Treekin Elder +15pts
A Treekin Elder may take up to 25pts total in Spites

Warhawk Riders 30pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 2 6 1 8
Aerial Agility, Asrai Archery, Fire and Flee, Flying Cavalry, Hit-and-Run, Rake
Equipment: Asrai Longbow, Spear, light armour, Warhawk
Unit size: 3+
Musician +7pts
Standard Bearer +14pts
May carry a magical standard worth up to 50pts
Wind Rider +14pts
A Wind Rider may take up to 25pts total in magic items and Spites

Rare:
Great Eagle 50pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
2 5 0 4 4 3 4 2 8
Aerial Agility, Fly
Equipment: Powerful Talons

Treeman 220pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 0 6 6 6 2 5 8
Forest Spirit, 3+ Scaly Skin Save, Stubborn, Large Target, Terror, Strangle Root, Stubborn, Equipment: Gnarled Fists

Forest Dragon 250pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
8 6 0 5 5 5 5 6 8
Aerial Agility, Fly, Forest Spirit, Large Target, Poisoned Attacks, Poisoned Breath, Scaly Skin (4+), Terror

Waywatchers 20pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 5 3 3 1 5 1 9
Asrai Archery, Fire and Flee, Forest Stalkers, Forest Walkers, Lethal Shot, Skirmish
Equipment: Asrai Longbow
Unit size: 5-10
Shadow Sentinel + 10pts
A Shadow Sentinel may take up to 25pts total in magic items and Spites

Armory

Spites:

A Lamentation of Despairs 50pts
These three inseparable sister-spirits are much feared within Athel Loren, for they only appear to announce the demise of an individual. Often appearing as withering old crones with twisted twigs for hair, red-eyed ravens, or a triumvirate consisting of a crone, a beautiful woman, and a girl-child. Those who feel their gaze upon them know their time has come.
Enemy units within 6” of a model with Lamentation of Despairs are at -1 Leadership.

A Blight of Terrors 30pts
Terrors are malicious spites that dwell in the dark places of Athel Loren. They take great mirth in the horrified and frightened expressions of their prey, and even greater hilarity if their target dies of shock. They often hide secreted on a host, and when that host comes near an enemy, they loom out, screaming and wailing, taking on their most fearsome aspect.
A model with Blight of Terrors has the Terror special rule.

An Annoyance of Nettlings 30pts
These spites commonly take the form of spider-like creatures, scurrying over their host with feverish abandon. Any enemy that attempts to strike a being that is under the protection of Nettlings is likely to find their weapon snagged in a web of magical filaments.
Enemies targeting a model with Annoyance of Nettlings are at -1 to hit.

An Aura of Flashes 30pts
A model with Aura of Flashes has the Always Strikes First special rule.

A Cluster of Radiants 25pts
Radiants are unusual glowing Spites that usually manifest as little more than a blurred shape of pure light, though they appear in all manner of colors. They are often seen circling the most ancient of trees, and they will shy away from Elves and other mortal creatures. Sometimes they will take more solid form and appear as small Elven figures. They act as sponges of magical energy, sapping power from enemy mages.
A model with Cluster of Radiants may add one extra dice to their Dispel dice pool in their opponent’s Magic Phase.

A Muster of Malevolents 25pts
Malevolents appear in countless guises and are aggressive defenders of Athel Loren, utilizing poisoned darts and needle-like arrows, known as Elf-shot to the Bretonnians, to bring down their enemies. Some say that to be wounded by a Malevolent is to suffer a long and painful death, others that their darts can make their victims fall into a nightmarish sleep that can last for centuries.
A model with Muster of Malevolents counts as having a ranged weapon which can be used in addition to any other ranged attack, and can even be fired at a different target. This has a range of 30” and fires 2d6 S1 shots, rolling to hit using the firing model’s BS as normal (the penalty for multiple shots applies). These shots have the Poisoned Attacks special rule. A model may stand and shoot with Muster of Malevolents. This is not a magical attack.

A Pageant of Shrikes 25pts
Shrikes are malicious Spites that often reveal themselves as diminutive red-capped creatures borne upon the back of black birds, though they also appear as owls with fey light in their large eyes. Some take the form of vicious, razor winged pixies or small knights riding upon the backs of large insects. They move like quicksilver, darting through the forest to strike at their enemies, targeting arteries and eyes. Some say they are able to reach within the bodies of their foes to attack vital organs and the mind, causing great pain and sometimes death
A model with Pageant of Shrikes counts as having a ranged weapon, which can be used in addition to any other ranged attack, and can even be fired at a different target. This has a range of 18” and fires a single shot which always wounds on a 4+ and allows no armour saves. Roll to hit using the firing model’s BS as normal. This shot has the Sniper special rule.

Magic Weapons:

Blade of Oberon 60pts
The edge of this pole axe glints with starlight and dreams, and can cut through steel as easily as flesh.
Halberd. No armour saves are allowed against wounds caused by this weapon.

The Bow of Loren 30pts
This ancient and enchanted longbow is said to be strung with a single hair taken from the head of Ariel, Queen of Loren. The wielder of the Bow of Loren is therefore considered to be the Fey Queen’s champion upon the battlefield, striking down her enemies with unnaturally swift precision.
Asrai longbow. This bow allows the wielder to shoot as many times per turn as there are attacks in its profile. There is no penalty for taking multiple shots.

The Dawnspear 25pts
When the Wild Hunt rides from Athel Loren, the Elven prince chosen as Orion’s equerry carries the Dawnspear, a powerful talisman as old as the alliance between the Asrai and Athel Loren. Each time the Dawnspear tastes blood, it unleashes a pulse of light blinding the wielder’s foes with its brilliance
If the wielder causes an unsaved wound, that unit suffers a -1 to hit for the rest of that combat phase

Magic Armor:

Forest Cape 30pts
This cape is imbued with a magical ability to hide its wearer from all eyes, blending him perfectly into the background of the forest.
Light armor. The wearer has a 4+ Ward Save against all ranged attacks; this includes magic missiles and war machines.

Helm of the Hunt 25pts
This helm depicts the god Kournos in his aspect of the Hunter from whom no quarry can escape
This helm grants the wearer +1 to their armour save, which can be combined with other equipment as normal. In addition, the wearer gains +1 Weapon Skill and +1 Attack.

Talismans:

Amber Amulet 45pts
This gem, crafted at the height of Spring, pulses with the magic of the forest and bestows the vitality of the growing forest upon its bearer
At the start of the Wood Elf turn the bearer may roll d6. On a 1-2, the Amber Amulet has no effect. On a 3+, the bearer regains 1 lost wound.

Wraithstone 40pts
The wailing and tormented spirits of all who die within the Waystone boundaries of Athel Loren are bound to this gem, inspiring great dread in the enemies of the Wood Elves
The bearer causes Fear, or Terror if they caused Fear already. Additionally, any unit in base contact with the wielder’s unit suffers a -1 penalty to leadership.

Enchanted Items:

The Black Arrows 85pts
Their shafts are made from the heartwood of ancient trees, their feathers taken from the most wrathful of the great eagles, an archer who goes to war with a quiver of Black Arrows carries death with them.
The wielder of the black arrows gains the Sniper special rule. In addition, all longbow attacks made by a model with the black arrows have the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.

Hagbane Arrows 25pts
Carved from the trees of the Glade of Woe, some of Cyanthair’s taint still lingers in these arrows. If these darts even so much as break the skin of a foe, a formless blight that shrivels and corrupts quickly spreads from the wound, condemning their victim to die in screaming agony.
Longbow attacks made by a model with Hagbane arrows have the Multiple Wounds (D3) rule.

Arcane Bodkins 20pts
Whether the foe wears thick armor or unnatural hide it matters not. Should an Arcane Bodkin fly true, the target is doomed.
No Armor saves are allowed against wounds caused by a longbow from a model with Arcane Bodkins

Dragontooth Arrows 10pts
Made from the teeth of one of the emerald Forest Dragons of Loren, some of the creature’s venom still lingers on these barbs
The model’s longbow has the Poisoned Attacks special rule.

Arcane Items:

Wand of the Wych Elm 55pts
Crafted from the branch of a Wych tree, these staves are much valued for their ability to bend the winds of magic
The wielder channeling on a 4+. In addition, once during each of their opponent’s magic phases, the Wood Elf player may re-roll one dispel die. This can cause Irresistible Force.

Magic Standards:

The Standard of Aeriel 45pts
This banner constantly looks as though bathed in the glow of the twilight sun. It bears the device of Ariel herself, and those under its gossamer banners are blessed with her grace.
The ranged attacks of a unit with this banner have the Quick to Fire special rule. In addition, the unit may make a Stand and Shoot! reaction any number of times in a phase, and is always treated as having Light Cover.

Banner of Dwindling 30pts
Woven from the red leaves of autumn, this banner is instilled with Faoghir, the West Wind. It saps the impure of vigor, allowing the Asrai to strike them down, never again to return to their lands
A unit with this banner may re-roll its Pursue result.

Kindreds:

Alter Kindred 15pts
The character’s Movement and Initiative increase to 9 and he gains +1 Attack. They cannot be the army general and must fight on foot.

Eternal Kindred 35pts
This character gains a Spear Stave, in addition to the Regeneration (5+) and Stubborn special rules. This character may not be the General.
For every Noble with this upgrade, one unit of Eternal Guard may be taken as a Core choice. The Noble must join this unit and cannot leave it.

Glamourweave Kindred 35pts
The character gains the Forest Spirit special rule and a +1 to cast spells from the Lore of Athel Loren.

Scout Kindred 15pts
This character gains the Scout special rule. The character must fight on foot and cannot wear heavy armor or use a great weapon or a shield.

Wardancer Kindred 45pts
The character loses their longbow and cannot wear armour, but gains two hand weapons. They have the Heroic Killing Blow, Immune to Psychology, and Talismanic Tattoos special rules. The character must fight on foot and cannot join non-Wardancer units.

Waywatcher Kindred 35pts
The character must fight on foot, loses their armour, and cannot use a great weapon or a shield. In addition the character gains +1 Ballistic Skill and the Forest Stalker and Lethal Shot special rules (waywatcher characters gain all benefits from the Lethal Shot special rule at all times).

Wild Rider Kindred 45pts
The character must be mounted. They lose their longbow and gain a spear. The character gains +1Weapon Skill, +1 Strength, and also has the Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Frenzy, and Talismanic Tattoos rules, and cannot join non-Wild Rider units.

Lore of Athel Loren:

Lore Attribute- Treesinging
Every time a spell from the Lore of Athel Loren is successfully cast, the casting player may move a forest in any direction, up to d3”, after the spell’s effects are resolved. This may bring the forest in contact with or over a unit. If a friendly unit is wholly within the forest, the unit will move with it. Additionally, the Wood Elf player may elect to change the forest as they move it; the next unit to move into the forest must make a roll on the Mysterious Forest table. This roll will replace any previous rolls made.

Signature spell- Fury of the forest: (5+) Direct damage. Roots and branches shoot up from the ground and lash out at the target.

An enemy unit within 24” of the caster takes D6 S3 hits. If a unit suffers one or more unsaved wounds by this spell, their Movement value is reduced by half until the caster’s next magic phase. The caster may increase the casting value of this spell to 10+. If they do, Fury of the Forest inflicts 2D6 S3 hits, and a wounded unit may not move at all (except flee if broken in combat) until the casters next magic phase.

1: Oaken Armour: (8+) Augmentation. The caster brings new and vital life to the ferns and the branches around her comrades, weaving them into shields and suits of living armour as hard as iron.

The caster may target a friendly unit within 18”. The unit gains +2 to their armour. The caster may choose to increase the casting value to (15+) and affect all units within 18”.

2: The Hidden Path: (7+) Augmentation. The spellcaster erects a bridge between this world and the world of the Fey, and invites her allies to cross.

A single unit within 24” can treat all terrain as open ground until the start of the caster’s next magic phase, though they cannot end a move in impassible terrain. If the wizard chooses to increase the casting value to 14+, they may target any unit within 48”.

3: Fairy Fire: (8+) Hex. The caster summons glowing faeries around the target that bewilder them, luring them deeper into the wood.

Nominate an enemy unit within 18” of the caster. The caster may move the unit 1d6+2”. The unit may wheel, but cannot turn or reform. If this move would take the unit off the table edge, it stops 1” away.

4: Wildgrowth (8+) Unique. The caste hurls an acorn, enchanted with the vigor and strength of the ancient woods, causing the ground to erupt in a frenzy of vines, branches, and roiling earth.

Remains in play. Wildgrowth can create a forest anywhere within 12” in the caster’s line of sight. A forest created this way may be no more than 6” in diameter, and may not be placed in such a way that it overlaps with other forests, rivers, or marshlands.
Alternatively, Wildgrowth may target an existing forest, allowing friendly units to treat it as a two-level building. Units wholly within the targeted forest are treated as the garrison. The forest still follows any rules on the Mysterious Forest table.

5: Call of the Hunt: (10+) Augmentation. The caster fills his allies with the spirit of Kurnous, imparting a measure of his anger, vigor, and ferocity upon them

Call of the Hunt may target a friendly unit within 24” If the unit is not engaged in close combat it may immediately make a move of 2d6” towards the nearest visible enemy. If this brings the unit into contact with an enemy unit this counts as a charge. Models in the unit will get an extra attack until the casters next magic phase. The wizard may choose to increase the range to 48” and the casting value to 14+.

6: Murder of Spites: (11+) Magical Vortex. The spites of Loren are easily angered and the Spellsingers knows the incantations that will make them go to war. When aroused like this the spites gather in massed swarms that sweep over the foes with bites, stings and deadly poisons.

Murder of Spites uses the small round template. Once the template is placed, nominate the direction it will move. To determine how far the template moves, roll a artillery die and multiply the result by 4. Any model without the Forest Spirit special rule touched or passed over by this template suffers a S2 hit with no armour saves allowed. No Look Out, Sir! rolls are allowed against wounds caused by this spell. If the result is a Misfire!, center the template on the caster and scatter it D6”. In either event, in subsequent turns, the spites travel in a random direction and move a number of inches as equal to the roll of an artillery die. If a Misfire! is rolled on a subsequent turn, the spites disperse…for now. A reckless or brave spellsinger can choose to summon even more spites, using the large round template. If they do so, the casting value increases to 21+.

Cheers, looking really nice atm, giving wood elves that much needed boost. In the standard rules its getting to the point where Wood elves might aswell not exist. Im quite new mind so Im not as good as you lot will be

I would like to see the Wild Riders on Great Stags unit. They'd be like the Blood Knights in many ways, an elite unit enshrouded in myth and prohibitively expensive for most generals, but a near unstoppable force on the field.

I have been watching you for quite a while, and I'm very happy with this. I have play tested this fire and flee a bit and find it quite powerful, but not as powerful as I would of thought. Loving all your changes.

Only thing I'm waiting on is that overly complicated over priced and highly situational weapon that EVERY codex has. Unlike a simple ignore armour weapon...which almost EVERY codex has, for cheaper and sometimes better. I still not amazingly happy with the I drop to treekin which let them strike before Ogres and Orcs, but I can see that you image in your head is of hulking rather then quick treekin.

Also maybe you should give the eagles the same upgrade options as the high elf ones, just for consistency, and maybe a treeman ancient only upgrade to give him that regeneration you wanted for 30pts.

@Templar_Bean: thanks!

@Greenleaves12: You can count on Stag Knights. Just trying to iron out a few things about them (rider Attacks, mount Strength and Attacks, and point cost).
They'll be most comparable to Mournfang Cavalry; just less obviously awesome.

@ALEXisAWESOME: glad to hear!

Fire and Flee is probably going to be tossed out in exchange for the simpler rule of: units with Asrai Archery can fire in a turn they've rallied.

The Big Awesome Weapon of the Wood Elves is actually under the Enchanted Item section, see: The Black Arrows- 85pts for Sniper and Heroic Killing Blow with your longbow.

Also trying to think of something interesting for the Glaive of Oberon to do. Something like cutting dreams and thought as well as flesh (penalties to WS and I?).

The Treekin Initiative isn't a big concern for me. If it looks like they need it back at a 3, I'll bump it back up without a second glance.

I'd like to make this book as parallel to the new High Elf one as possible. Just haven't got my hands on it yet.

I'd like one spite from the old rulebook to stay. I don't know it's English name, but it makes the opponent hit the bearer on 6+ during a challenge.
Since wood elf characters aren't very strong, this spite can really help them.

An Annoyance of Nettlings. It's up there, just at +5pts and changed to "-1 to be Hit in close combat".

Only being hit on a 6 in a challenge was just silly. Sure, it's conditional, but it's just So. Good. And for 25pts. I don't think I ever saw a Treeman Ancient or combat-lord without it.
If an option is so awful or appealing that it is never or always taken, it needs to be changed or removed.

Mechanically -1 to Hit usually means you're being hit on 5's. So, while you're getting hit 16% more times in a challenge, you're getting hit 16% less times in other places. I think it's an even trade, and perhaps a better deal, over all.

I think it' would be better if the spite would make the opponet of the bearer hit always on 5+ during a chalenge. Wood elf heroes are really weak and have weapon skill of 6 only. Most armies have at least one hero choice with higher Ws. Therefore often they would get hit on 4+ with the annoyance of Nettlings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally does the wood elf hero on a stag in the current rulebook count as FAQ'd MC to also use stag's toughness?

Most armies have Heroes with a high WS than 6? I doubt that. And even if they do, they're not often used.

Daemons, Warriors....who else? High and Dark Elves, maybe?

Also, if you want a fighty-Wood Elf Hero, take Annoyance and Shimmering Scales. And/or be an Alter.

As for the Stag thing, I'm not sure. It should be.

I'd like to see more special rules which synergize the army with woods. Instead of a free wood, make it D3+2 free woods. And then have each unit have an inherent set of special rules or boosts while in woods and also like a wood elf mysterious forest chart. For an example:

- Spellcasters +1 to cast & dispel while in woods
- Wardancers always count as charging a unit in the rear when charging an enemy unit in woods
- Forest spirits increase their ward save to 4+ while in woods
Etc....

And then for each wood a wood elf unit enters roll on a special mysterious wood chart that boosts wood elf units only, like....

1- All units in the wood have Regenerate (5+)
2- All units in the wood have Magic resistance (3)
3- All units cause Frenzy
4-......
5-.....
6-......

And then i think it would be cool to give all wood elf musicians the ability to tree sing, make it like a bound spell with power level 4.

Just a few ideas i thought would make wood elves really cool.

I like those ideas. The problem is, sometimes, you're playing on a table set up to be a mine, or a desert, or whatever, and getting a free forest doesn't make a lick of sense.
If you want forests on the table, you should just talk to your opponent; "hey, I play Wood Elves, so it just makes sense for most of my games to happen in the woods. You cool with that?". But in a tournament setting, tones and themes take a backseat.

With D3+2 forests, there's somewhere between 8 and 15 pieces of terrain on the table. That is too many. I've played at tournaments with at least a dozen pieces of terrain on every board, and as the proud general of a horde-army, I can say it is the exact opposite of fun.

Really, I like the concept, but I'm trying to make Wood Elves less dependent on the type of terrain. D3+2 free forests you say? I say none at all. Except those the Wood Elves might magically conjure with a spell.

I think it's just the best way, strategically. And aesthetically.

Just some thoughts...

Thematically, I feel like WE are tied to forests. I mean, I guess that's obvious. And while I can see where you're coming from with trying to separate them from terrain (from a gameplay perspective), I feel like that's not the direction to go.

I guess what I'm getting at is... the books should be balanced to the BRB. If the BRB includes rules for random terrain generation, then that should be considered. Sure - tournaments don't abide by those rules, but why build the army with tournaments in mind instead of the rules as presented in the BRB?

I think that d3+2 forests is way too much, and I get what you're saying about playing a game that's set in a mine or something. But playing a game that's set in a mine makes the Forest Walkers army special rule useless. And I also understand that you could randomly roll terrain and get zero forests, but the chances of that happening aren't good.

So I guess what it comes down to is whether or not the army as you've presented it feels like WOOD Elves or Other Magical Elves with Buddies. Do I want to play an army that can't win if there are no forests on the table? No, because you can't be guaranteed of that. Do I want to play an army that feels thematically tied to the woods? Yes.

I'm not even really trying to contradict your current iteration or even anything that you've said. This is just stuff that was coming to mind as I was reading your latest incarnation here.

II like the forest boosting ideas (some of them, others are OTT), but keep in mind that most forests are mundane ...
The whole army could have Strider(forests) for a start
Because if you make their woods too powerful, you need to create rules for setting fire to those woods

TanKoL wrote:
II like the forest boosting ideas (some of them, others are OTT), but keep in mind that most forests are mundane ...
The whole army could have Strider(forests) for a start
Because if you make their woods too powerful, you need to create rules for setting fire to those woods

He's already given them Forest Strider.

@TanKol: sadly, most forests in the BRB are not mundane. Only one in six are. Hence why I added in the "roll 2d6" bit to Forest Walkers.

@Tangent: I totally agree.
And that's an excellent point about tournaments versus the BRB. But I guess I'd point out that the BRB says the Random Terrain Chart is an alternative, not the standard. The first thing they say is "place...terrain upon the battlefield, choosing the pieces from your terrain collection".
I just really like the focus GW puts on Warhammer as a theatrical game, and I'd like to stick to that as much as possible. If for no other reason than because I see so few people play it that way.

I hope that Forest Strider, Treesinging, and Wildgrowth are enough to create that theme you're talking about.

If Wood Elves play on a table without forests...well, yeah, that renders their Forest Walker rule useless. But that shouldn't throw the game too much, right?. I mean, Beastmen/Dwarfs don't get to count one unit in their opponent's army as Empire or Bretonnia/Orcs & Goblins for Primal Fury/Ancestral Grudge. Some rules don't always come into play.
My concern would be Treesinging, since it's the Lore Attribute. That feels a little more major to me.
But then again, Wildgrowth might help offset some of that? I know it's just one spell, and it's Remains in Play, but it's something. And in this balancing act of not making them too reliant on forests, but still keeping that theme going, maybe it's enough?

Most importantly, though, is that the army's style just benefits from forests and forest-like terrain. Places to get soft cover and to make your Skirmish troops Stubborn. They shouldn't need too many special rules to tie them to forests if the army's built in such a way that the best way to play them is in forests or similar places.

Two things I noticed that are kind of funny:

1. Strider says you don't have to take Dangerous Terrain tests in that type of terrain. The "Venom Thicket" result on the Mysterious Forests table gives you Poisoned Attacks, but forces you to take a Dangerous Terrain test when moving through it. So...Wood Elves love Venom Thickets, I guess.

2. Blood Forests activate when someone casts a spell in them. So a Branchwraith could cast a spell, get the Blood Forest to hit her unit (which is immune to the damage) along with any enemy units in it, and then send it wandering off. Not especially advantageous, but kinda' funny. Maybe it wanders off in the wrong direction, and she uses her Treesinging for that spell to call it back, like a misbehaving, coniferous dog.

I guess the theatrical point is a good one. I mean, as it stands, if the army doesn't get any free forests, they're basically screwed at tournaments which tend to have less terrain on the table than casual games AND have "theme" tables (where the table surface looks like sand and all the terrain is egyptian monuments and hills, or whatever).

If you give them a free forest, then they might be better off from a balance perspective, but it will definitely make less thematic sense in some games.

Wildgrowth DOES help offset this a little bit, but from my reading, Wild Growth on a table with no forests is like Throne of Vines. It makes EVERYTHING better, which means it's the ONE spell that you MUST dispel (and, so, you probably WILL dispel it). And before Wildgrowth goes off, the lore attribute is useless.

So the smart opponent on a table with no forests will always dispel Wildgrowth and pretend like the WE don't even have a lore attribute.

In this scenario, I'm not sure that the existence of Wildgrowth does much to offset the lack of a forest.

And I don't know if you've already covered this, but Wildgrowth is remains in play, right? So if it gets dispelled next turn...

What if you made Wildgrowth the signature spell?

An interesting thought! My concern would be forest-creating spam, clogging up the map. But then again...forests aren't as devastating as they used to be. Thoughts?

Really, though, I don't feel like Wood Elves need forests to win. Infantry doesn't need Forest Strider, and fast cavalry is mobile enough to navigate around other kinds of terrain...
It's just that, Wood Elves have Treesinging and Forest Walkers. Beyond that, they're a mobile army with good shooting. They benefit from keeping their opponent at bay and choosing their engagements. Forests help do that, but there are other ways, too.

Warpsolution wrote:
An interesting thought! My concern would be forest-creating spam, clogging up the map. But then again...forests aren't as devastating as they used to be. Thoughts?

Really, though, I don't feel like Wood Elves need forests to win. Infantry doesn't need Forest Strider, and fast cavalry is mobile enough to navigate around other kinds of terrain...
It's just that, Wood Elves have Treesinging and Forest Walkers. Beyond that, they're a mobile army with good shooting. They benefit from keeping their opponent at bay and choosing their engagements. Forests help do that, but there are other ways, too.

Do you mean that they're a mobile army with good shooting from a gameplay perspective or a fluff perspective? Because from a fluff perspective, I've always seen them as an ambush army (when inside the proper terrain) with good shooting. I also vaguely remember thinking that their horses are the fastest in the land, but not sure about that. Anyway, I always kind-of saw their fluffy mobility as originating from the fact that ambushers are more likely to be skirmishers, and being skirmishers gives them more mobility as a side effect. But the MAIN thing was the ambush.

And no, I don't think that your current iteration needs forests to win, either. But if they're thematically tied to the woods then it just feels weird to play them without forests. And I understand that if you tie them to forests too much gameplay-wise, then you almost MUST give them free forests or something... but then, because so many of their benefits come from having forests on the table, it's either win or lose based purely on whether the forest is there.

At the same time, I don't think it's HORRIBLE if an army is tied strategically (gameplay-wise) to specific terrain. Not only is that really pretty interesting, but the Watchtower scenario already does this. When you play Watchtower, the entire game is focused around not just a terrain TYPE, but a single PIECE of terrain. But it's interesting because, you know, do you risk engaging them in the forest? Do you try to draw them out with warmachine shooting and/or magic? Do you wait for a good magic phase and buff your guys, and THEN try to engage them within the forest? But what if you never get a decent magic phase? And what if the timing is wrong, so they flee from the forest when you're buffed, only to return next turn to try to rout you out of the forest when your buffs wear off? It asks interesting strategic questions about the terrain that you're playing on that, as far as I know, no other army asks.

As for Wildgrowth being the signature spell, I see what you mean about spamming. That being said, the range is only 12". The casting value is 8+ which is fairly high for a sig. If you get a bad magic phase, you'll try to cast it twice and one will get dispelled. So you'll have one forest, and next turn (since you're not otherwise buffed) your opponent will have to make a strategic choice to either dispel the forest that's in play or try to buff his guys or whatever.

If you did make it the sig and were worried about spams, you could try reducing the size of the forest from 6" down to 5". Or, you could say that the ENTIRE forest must lie within 12" of the caster, effectively reducing the range of the spell to 9".