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 Hunterindarkness wrote:
As for the webway thing, that just goes to show not even the Emperor himself had the slightest clue how it worked. He was playing with things he did not understand.

Huh? What are you talking about? The Emperor knew how the Webway functioned; the Mechanicum simply couldn't replicate its construction materials at the time. It was Magnus who didn't understand and ruptured it in his tragic attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
The important consideration is that while the early Imperium and the current one both lacked complete understanding, the Crusade era was about developement, of moving forwards. Rather than slowly declining like the current IoM, they were taking steps forwards.

THIS. The Great Crusade-era Imperium was after all only the beginning of what was supposed to a new dawn for Mankind across the stars.

No, he did not understand it. He kinda grasped it. He forced his way in and kinda tried to half ass a gateway. Magnus breached it, however it was the Emperors failed understanding which kept him from closing it and why it is still breached. He really did not understand it or the breach would have been sealed and he would not have tried to force one himself.

I will agree the crusade era IoM were trying to recover what was lost. But they did not innovate as much as recover. And they really did not have all that much of the dark age tech "recovered"

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No, he did not understand it. He kinda grasped it. He forced his way in and kinda tried to half ass a gateway. Magnus breached it, however it was the Emperors failed understanding which kept him from closing it and why it is still breached. He really did not understand it or the breach would have been sealed and he would not have tried to force one himself.

Incorrect. The Emperor understood the Webway, but Imperial technology was incapable of fully applying the theory. They couldn't close it since the technology to do so (the Golden Throne) was lagging. Heck, IRL some scientific theories can't be applied yet since the technology hasn't caught up. Same problem.

Sigh, if he understood it he could freaking make it. No, he grasped the theory of how it worked, which is not the same thing as understanding how to build such a thing.

Its kinda like saying well..I know you can in theory build a warp drive.....so me without training or ya know gear will do so in my basement.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Sigh, if he understood it he could freaking make it. No, he grasped the theory of how it worked, which is not the same thing as understanding how to build such a thing.

Its kinda like saying well..I know you can in theory build a warp drive.....so me without training or ya know gear will do so in my basement.

Understanding and grasping the theory are one and the same thing. Applying it is another matter entirely.

EDIT: As for building a ward drive, you need a fusion plant, an ion drive/fusion torch/anti-matter engine, maneuvering thrusters, an element zero core, a hull, furnishings, computer controls, life-support, heat sinks, and kinetic barriers. No pressure

Oh and radiation shields.

No, no it is not. Not in the slightest. the rough outline of how something works in thory and how ya know it really works is not the same. The webway was leaps and bounds above even dark age tech.

The Emperor played with something he did not understand, could not build and in the end could not control and got burned , hard. He brute forced an opening with his mind, knowing humanity could not maintain or build the webway.

No, he had no freaking clue what he was really doing. A monkey with a gun.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


The Emperor played with something he did not understand, could not build and in the end could not control and got burned , hard. He brute forced an opening with his mind, knowing humanity could not maintain or build the webway.

Are you sure you're not confusing the Emperor with Magnus? Because from what I read regarding the Imperial Webway, the Emperor understood how the Webway worked, but didn't have the necessary level of technology. And while Magnus was ultimately meant to inherit the Webway, the Emperor rejected his offer of assistance because the Emperor was apparently using a trial-and-error method to complete his construction of the Imperial Webway. Trial-and-error is the most reliable scientific procedure, even if somewhat wasteful in terms of resources.

No, he had no freaking clue what he was really doing. A monkey with a gun.

That makes all of us 'monkeys with guns', since even IRL only tech experts understand the details of how our tech works. And you can't really call the only man the Powers of Chaos ever feared a 'monkey'.

No he did not. In his arrogance he though "Hey this is something I can do with my mind! If a filthy xeno can do it, I can do it" and he failed. Sure Magnus broke it, but if he understood it at all, then he could have sealed it or ya know not been stupid enough to half ass a way into something he did not understand.

The Big E was smart, but he was also damned arrogant. He really did not understand the webway, he grasped what it was and in his arrogance though he could do alone with his mind what another race had done sixty million years before,

And because of that earth id a gateway for demons now. But ya know..he totally meant to do that.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No he did not. In his arrogance he though "Hey this is something I can do with my mind! If a filthy xeno can do it, I can do it" and he failed. Sure Magnus broke it, but if he understood it at all, then he could have sealed it or ya know not been stupid enough to half ass a way into something he did not understand.

Well, the Golden Throne's systems were also damaged by Magnus' actions. And with the Horus Heresy on, containment and the war would be first priority as opposed to repair. Unfortunately, as we all know, he didn't really get the chance for that.

The Big E was smart, but he was also damned arrogant. He really did not understand the webway, he grasped what it was and in his arrogance though he could do alone with his mind what another race had done sixty million years before.

He's an immortal, of course he'd be arrogant. And he didn't do it alone. He had the Mechanicum behind him and probably obtained the Void Dragon's technological prowess when he defeated it.

Anyway, the Golden Throne that was the core of the Imperial Webway is/was an experimental device; the construction of the Imperial Webway was apparently a trial-and-error scheme to advance the technology to meet the theory.

And because of that earth id a gateway for demons now. But ya know..he totally meant to do that.

That was Magnus' fault.

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree. I think is try to use the webway was always doomed to fail as he was playing with something he simply did not understand.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I guess we shall have to agree to disagree.

So it would seem...I hate it when people use this line.

I think is try to use the webway was always doomed to fail as he was playing with something he simply did not understand.

For me he understood the theory but lacked the technology and chance to put it into motion.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the Eldar didn't develop the Webway either. It was given to them by the Old Ones, IIRC.

He seemed to know the Golden Throne wasn't made of the correct material that was required and instead of waiting and trying to develop it, they forged ahead and just used the Emperor's psychic might to hold it together, Magnus broke that shield the Emperor had erected. And things came through. But I think in its development over the years, it indicates the Emperor made a mistake, he hadn't broken into the Eldar Webway, the one the Eldar use which is functioning, but instead into a part that was already locked off, so in reality, he wasted resources breaking into something which was already broken, it wouldn't have led anywhere at all. The Emperor knew what it was in effect, knew what it could be used for, but lacked the ability to understand it and figure out how it worked.

The Necron's did have gates that could breach it but as soon as they did the Webway reacted sending things to the breach and cutting off sections until the breached area was closed. It will cut off areas where daemons are found, locking them there. They can break through again, but it will just repeatedly cut it off every time they do.

SkyD wrote:
He seemed to know the Golden Throne wasn't made of the correct material that was required and instead of waiting and trying to develop it, they forged ahead and just used the Emperor's psychic might to hold it together, Magnus broke that shield the Emperor had erected. And things came through. But I think in its development over the years, it indicates the Emperor made a mistake, he hadn't broken into the Eldar Webway, the one the Eldar use which is functioning, but instead into a part that was already locked off, so in reality, he wasted resources breaking into something which was already broken, it wouldn't have led anywhere at all. The Emperor knew what it was in effect, knew what it could be used for, but lacked the ability to understand it and figure out how it worked.

Partly correct...they couldn't replicate the construction material because, well, they couldn't analyze any samples. And they never did reach the primary network; I'm sure both the Webway's intelligences and the Eldar would have realized the psychic might of the Emperor entering the network.

gh05tdemon wrote:
The eldar are by far the most advanced. to the point we dont even recognize it as tech. while yes the Tau are advanced they still rely on their hands to activate everything, not their brains like the eldar. The only race that seems equal with IoM tech would be the orks, necrons are robots, tyranids need to atleast undertsand themselves and what to eat to make them more fit, meaning they have to understand the tech, even if it is useless they need to know what to eat.

Don't the Tyranids just eat everything? I don't think they technologically advanced. But in terms of pure biological evolution, they are the icing on the cake and the cake, which they have, and eat it too. I wish I had some cake now.

But yes, the Eldar are the most advanced in technology, if judged by their success in battle, and I think they'd probably whoop the crap out of Tau any day.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:

gh05tdemon wrote:
The eldar are by far the most advanced. to the point we dont even recognize it as tech. while yes the Tau are advanced they still rely on their hands to activate everything, not their brains like the eldar. The only race that seems equal with IoM tech would be the orks, necrons are robots, tyranids need to atleast undertsand themselves and what to eat to make them more fit, meaning they have to understand the tech, even if it is useless they need to know what to eat.

Don't the Tyranids just eat everything? I don't think they technologically advanced. But in terms of pure biological evolution, they are the icing on the cake and the cake, which they have, and eat it too. I wish I had some cake now.

But yes, the Eldar are the most advanced in technology, if judged by their success in battle, and I think they'd probably whoop the crap out of Tau any day.

Necrons have the most advanced technology. From what I know, Necrons kick Eldar ass in BFG (since pointy-ears don't use shields and holo-fields have no effect on Necron weapons) and probably do too on the TT.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I think is try to use the webway was always doomed to fail as he was playing with something he simply did not understand.

Ya may dislike it but what else is there to say? You think the Big E knew what he was doing and any thing bad that may have resulted had nothing to do with him. I think he did not and the fault lays with him. Neither of us will change stance so why spend pages more or less going " did so...did not."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SkyD wrote:
He seemed to know the Golden Throne wasn't made of the correct material that was required and instead of waiting and trying to develop it, they forged ahead and just used the Emperor's psychic might to hold it together, Magnus broke that shield the Emperor had erected. And things came through. But I think in its development over the years, it indicates the Emperor made a mistake, he hadn't broken into the Eldar Webway, the one the Eldar use which is functioning, but instead into a part that was already locked off, so in reality, he wasted resources breaking into something which was already broken, it wouldn't have led anywhere at all. The Emperor knew what it was in effect, knew what it could be used for, but lacked the ability to understand it and figure out how it worked.

This is my view as well. He just assumed he could figure it out as he went along. He was incorrect.

@HunterinDarkness

Something's wrong with your quote...you quoted yourself. And alright, since this is gonna devolve into mud slinging, let's just agree to disagree (which I really dislike since it doesn't really resolve anything).

Back on-topic, Necrons have the most advanced technology, seeing as they're the only faction with a guarantee of wiping the floor with the Eldar.

EDIT: Trial-and-error is the most reliable investigative method. Nothing wrong with that.

Oops...no clue how that happened. Should have been your quote there. I was not muddslinging, but some times ya have two opposing view and what else can you do if both sides simply will not change stance?

I agree the necron are top ol the hep. They could have killed the Eldar off before but the silent king was just done. Mostly depressed , tired and ashamed. Now the Eldar are still top tier power, but no longer have the numbers they once commanded.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Oops...no clue how that happened. Should have been your quote there. I was not muddslinging, but some times ya have two opposing view and what else can you do if both sides simply will not change stance?

I know. So let's drop the Emperor understanding and not understanding, already before we devolve into a meaningless argument

I agree the necron are top ol the hep. They could have killed the Eldar off before but the silent king was just done. Mostly depressed , tired and ashamed. Now the Eldar are still top tier power, but no longer have the numbers they once commanded.

And with the Imperium having lost itself and the promise of its youth, the returning Necrons and the arriving Tyranids stand poised to fight over what's left of the blood-stained galaxy.

EDIT: The Imperium is the dominant power, but given its state of decay and stagnation, I'd give a few more centuries at least and maybe a millennium at most before its inevitable fall. Oh well, never been a big fan of last stands, but I suppose going down in flames and glory is better than kneeling before xenos or warp gods...

The IoM is dominate yes, but even they do not control all the space they claim. They are just damned effective about claiming anything they happen to have missed once it pokes its head up

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IoM is dominate yes, but even they do not control all the space they claim. They are just damned effective about claiming anything they happen to have missed once it pokes its head up

True...I'd bet an STC the Emperor and Malcador knew this would happen sooner or later. The conquest of the Webway wasn't done out of arrogance or a whim, it was out of need. Warp travel and astro-telepathy can only take the Imperium so far.

I think if the Necrons had been able to travel faster, like the Eldar, well everything would be shiny. Bar the Ork... And Tyranid...

I think Tau are kind of on par with IOM, but are more like "Refine it" to make it lethal to the enemy and not the firer. IOM is kind of Orkish, make it lethal, if 1 in 10 guys die using it, thats alright, he's probably a guardsman... His faith in the Emperor and his faith in his weapon were lacking.

I can't remember it right but I think in Dead Men Walking the Necron weapons wouldn't work for non-Necrons, much like the Dark/Eldar and 2000AD Judges, they had safeguards built into most weapons which stopped them being used by the enemy against them.
It would be interesting to see if the Gauss weapons of Necrons would eventually fail against the Olamic Quietude had they ever met in battle.

@SkyD

Tau cannot decisively defeat or face the Imperium. The difference in power is too great. Not to mention their lack of psychic abilities will render vulnerable against either Chaos, Necrons or the Eldar. After all, who do you think will rule man's heart after the Imperium falls but Chaos?

 Daba wrote:
Necron 'science' is unexplained, just happens and needs 'demigods' to use; this is closer to 'magic' in 40k. Here is your magic faction.

The Necrons don't need the C'tan to use their technology, and never did.

Even before ever encountering the C'tan, they had technology surpassing the Old Ones.

Indeed, the issue of the Necrotyr vs the old ones was always the webway. That alone meant battle always happened when, where and how the old ones wished it. Hard to beat someone when you can never force them to fight. Once they creaked the webway, it was over for the Old ones.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Indeed, the issue of the Necrotyr vs the old ones was always the webway. That alone meant battle always happened when, where and how the old ones wished it. Hard to beat someone when you can never force them to fight. Once they creaked the webway, it was over for the Old ones.

A lot of blood could have been avoided if those Old Ones had just given the Necrontyr what they wanted, you know, extending their pitifully short lifespans.

I tend to think the old ones simply viewed non-psyker races as less then fully sentient. More or less animals and until the Dolem gates showed up not much a threat. I do agree however, I mean the Necrotry had to be million if not billions of years old before finding the C'tan. Ya had to notice at some point they were not just gonna go away.

It does make me wonder however if by the time the C'tan showed up a good person of the upper class at lest went the cyborg route. They had the tech to do so and it would have extended life as well as make sense as to why they took that leap from biological to fully automated.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I tend to think the old ones simply viewed non-psyker races as less then fully sentient. More or less animals and until the Dolem gates showed up not much a threat.

In other words, the Necrontyr were the 'mon'keigh' of the Old Ones. What do you know...the sins of the children (the Eldar) are the same as the sins of the parent (the Old Ones). Perhaps when Chaos rules Man's heart in the ruins of the Imperium, just like the Old Ones before them the Eldar will come to regret their arrogance towards Humanity. And like the C'tan, the Chaos Powers just might realize the price their pawns demand as recompense in the end to be far greater than they can hope to pay.

well the Eldar are uplifts of the Old ones. It makes sense they would hold the same views as their old masters. Also they were kings of more or less everything for a very long time.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
well the Eldar are uplifts of the Old ones. It makes sense they would hold the same views as their old masters. Also they were kings of more or less everything for a very long time.

Abusive precursors, much?