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ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Space marine armor is not invincible. It goes down to power weapons all the time, and those are merely regular swords with disruption fields, a light sabre would go through marine armor like it wasn't even there. Furthermore, light sabres can certainly handle solid-slug ammunition. None of the space marine's shots would actually hit.
Furthermore, the WS and BS of Jedi are both insane, and they can use psychic powers without running the risk of perils of the warp.
There is literally nothing that a space marine has over a jedi other than numbers and, depending where in the SW universe you're talking about, they don't even have that.
A space marine is to a jedi asa guardsman is to a space marine.
Both backgrounds are too inconsistent for this comparison to be meaningful. The victor will be whoever the protagonist is in the current story.
This goes for a lot of "who wins" comparisons, but in this case it's especially apt. Sometimes Jedi can be killed one-on-one by non-Force sensitive humans, and sometimes they single-handedly destroy entire armies of battle droids. Sometimes a single Space Marine is a match for a platoon of Guardsmen, and sometimes a fire team of Guardsmen kills multiple Space Marines.
keezus wrote: 3. A 40k victory depends heavily on the assumption that warp travel is possible AND reliable where this showdown is happening. While slower, Star Wars has CONSISTENT space travel speed.
Slower? I thought a ship like the Millenium Falcon could travel the Milky Way from one side to the other in about a week, providing you take the risk of such a long jump. They never do ofc, preferring to stay to known safe courses and coming out to recalculate every few days. And the communications - HoloNet seems to be instant while the best known 40K method, an Astropath, could cause delays of weeks or months over longer ranges. When a planet is attacked in the SW setting they call for help and can expect assistance in a matter of hours or days. 40K? Help? After holding off the enemy for a year of bloody, GrimDark battle maybe.
That is true. Hyperspace travel in SW is many, many, *many* times faster than Warp travel in 40K, and far, far safer. From any point in the SW galaxy, you are, at worst, a matter of days from any other point. In 40k, it can take months to travel within the same sub-sector.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
- No its not that powerful. Its like every piece of armor except there is more of it and its stronger. A lightsaber will cut through it like a Plasma Weapon cuts through it.
- As a scout yes he has seen combat. Has he seen combat before being a scout? no. By the time he is a Space Marine, he has seen more combat than an average guardsman
- It kind of can. Its not going to deflect the bolt but the heat of it will actually destroy the shell.
- Yes Mandalorians would make perfect Space Marine candidates
- A Jedi can use the force to help speed their reaction times and movement ability so it is possible for a Space Marine to outmanouver a Space Marine DEPENDING on the SM's source material we are using
- The Force is endless, the mental power of a Jedi is not, he will eventually tire out if he is using it straight. However a quick breather will allow him to recover. Think of the force like oxygen, a Jedi isnt going to run out of oxygen but he may run out of breath and he will need time to catch a breather
I hope that helps
I feel bad just responding to this thread, but this is a tragedy. Have you even read the C:SM? For a man to even be selected as a candidate for inniation, he pretty much already has to excede the norm in a variety of ways. Most candidates are chosen because they display some exemplorary talent in the art of combat.
There is a line at which we divorce the rules (statistics of models/units in game) from the fluff. But per the LORE, a given Space space marine candidate is the better of a platoon of guardsman. And most of the candidates FAIL the trails and are either injured or killed at the end. Those rare few heroes who sruvive to become scouts are instantly made SUPER-HUMAN by means of genetic therapy and the implantation of the genestock and the various organs that make Space Marines what they are.
After CENTURIES of service, a typical Space Marine is to a normal man, what the Primarchs are to them... better in every conceivable way.
And I am not just spount some anti-IG hate spam. I happen to like the IG... but the fluff and lore clearly that the marines are not the neophytes you have incorrectly assumed them to be.
There is a line at which we divorce the rules (statistics of models/units in game) from the fluff. But per the LORE, a given Space space marine candidate is the better of a platoon of guardsman. And most of the candidates FAIL the trails and are either injured or killed at the end. Those rare few heroes who sruvive to become scouts are instantly made SUPER-HUMAN by means of genetic therapy and the implantation of the genestock and the various organs that make Space Marines what they are.
After CENTURIES of service, a typical Space Marine is to a normal man, what the Primarchs are to them... better in every conceivable way.
Actually, other fluff puts a trained Tac-Marine at the equivalent of 10 IG soldiers. What's that quote, "Give me a hundred Space Marines or, failing that, a thousand Guardsmen, and it shall be done" ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 18:03:55
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Sorry to just burst in but it says 40k vs starwars, not just space marine vs jedi. But if it is about one of our grunts beating a jedi its about the weapon, not the wielder.A simple guardian would rip a jedi to shreds as soon as he pulls the trigger, unless your saying a jedi can block ''up to a hundred bladed disks in a few short seconds'', if he carnt he is torn to shreds. A necron guass flayer, since its a field and not physical, carnt be blocked and would flay the jedi.
Heck, even a guardsmen on full auto would shred a jedi, cause your jedi carnt possibly block that many shots that, by definition, MOVES AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!
I feel bad just responding to this thread, but this is a tragedy. Have you even read the C:SM? For a man to even be selected as a candidate for inniation, he pretty much already has to excede the norm in a variety of ways. Most candidates are chosen because they display some exemplorary talent in the art of combat.
There is a line at which we divorce the rules (statistics of models/units in game) from the fluff. But per the LORE, a given Space space marine candidate is the better of a platoon of guardsman. And most of the candidates FAIL the trails and are either injured or killed at the end. Those rare few heroes who sruvive to become scouts are instantly made SUPER-HUMAN by means of genetic therapy and the implantation of the genestock and the various organs that make Space Marines what they are.
After CENTURIES of service, a typical Space Marine is to a normal man, what the Primarchs are to them... better in every conceivable way.
And I am not just spount some anti-IG hate spam. I happen to like the IG... but the fluff and lore clearly that the marines are not the neophytes you have incorrectly assumed them to be.
What the hell? Did you just randomly quote me without reading anything I said?
Um, and none of that changes what I said.
He asked about how much combat experience a Scout would have (basic initiate scout) A SCOUT IS NOT A COMBAT VETERAN!
Scouts, go into war and fight, scouts are selected because of how capable. However before joining a Space Marine chapter the Scout does not have combat experience under his belt. He may have fought in a few brawls in a bar or hunted animals but he has not fought in wars. He does not have combat experience when he becomes a scout.
I have no idea why you are talkign about Space Marines being better than Guardsmen or Primarchs
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ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Sorry to just burst in but it says 40k vs starwars, not just space marine vs jedi. But if it is about one of our grunts beating a jedi its about the weapon, not the wielder.A simple guardian would rip a jedi to shreds as soon as he pulls the trigger, unless your saying a jedi can block ''up to a hundred bladed disks in a few short seconds'', if he carnt he is torn to shreds. A necron guass flayer, since its a field and not physical, carnt be blocked and would flay the jedi.
Heck, even a guardsmen on full auto would shred a jedi, cause your jedi carnt possibly block that many shots that, by definition, MOVES AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!
A Guardian fires a fast shooting and accurate weapon like an Assault Rifle, he isnt firing an MP-5. His shots are going to be in a near line. IF the Jedi blocks the first shot, the next dozen are going to be blocked because they are on the same flight path, if the Guardian changes his aim it wont be a sudden shell lands over here but a stream that moves that the Jedi COULD follow.
Im not saying a Jedi will have it easy, im just saying a Jedi COULD block it.
I dont know about Necrons but we arnt talking about Necrons, we are talking about Space Marines
A Jedi can block shots fired a full auto from a Guardsman. The first time Luke uses a lightsaber he fights a combat drone he can not see and is able to block a series of shots from it when he couldnt even see it. Its because of the Force.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 19:16:03
unless your saying a jedi can block ''up to a hundred bladed disks in a few short seconds'', if he carnt he is torn to shreds
They can. Telekinetic shields are essentially a default Jedi power, so many of them have it that it's almost a standard-issue power, if such things can be said to exist amongst Jedi.
Too much focus on the lightsaber as the blocking device. Why use that when you can make lasers and bullets simply stop ten feet away?
Scouts, go into war and fight, scouts are selected because of how capable. However before joining a Space Marine chapter the Scout does not have combat experience under his belt. He may have fought in a few brawls in a bar or hunted animals but he has not fought in wars. He does not have combat experience when he becomes a scout.
That is going to vary by Chapter but, in most cases, a Space Marine Scout, at 18 years of age, has been involved in tribal warfare and hunting dangerous beasts for a decade. If we're talking Space Wolves, that 18 year old Scout probably has a few wives, a half-dozen kids, and has killed a dozen men with his bare hands.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 19:32:45
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Now killing a man in a brawl and hunting is not the same as military combat experience.
Tribal warfare is closer so thanks there. However the mass majority, ie. the Average Scout does not have combat experience. He has some fighting experience maybe but not combat
Psienesis wrote: That is true. Hyperspace travel in SW is many, many, *many* times faster than Warp travel in 40K, and far, far safer. From any point in the SW galaxy, you are, at worst, a matter of days from any other point. In 40k, it can take months to travel within the same sub-sector.
To nit-pick, it's not that hyperspace is faster, it's just more reliable.
It is impossible to accurately predict how long it will take to travel through the warp to your destination. It may take months, years even to arrive, sure. It can also take a few days or hours. There have even been ships that have arrived at their destination before they even left.
The warp makes a mockery of time in general, it's not an automatic "Oh yeah, it will take between 2-3 months to reach Segmentum Solar".
While time-dilation effects do happen, there's a general "average" of time between points in the Warp, and life aboard warp-traveling vessels is generally a lengthy period. This is provided in a number of sources, most notably the Gaunt's Ghosts novels that have the Sabbat Crusade fleets spending weeks or months moving through the Warp between the various planets that the IG will be deployed on, and this is within a single sub-sector. In contrast, hyperspace travel in SW is based entirely on the type of Hyperspace Drive the ship is equipped with and, barring unforeseen incident, the travel-time between two systems is a known factor, and is only in extreme circumstances more than a few days.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
To really solve this debate you have to have something to compare between the to settings and the real world, like the very foolish thing Star trek did were it gave the actual power rating dispersion numbers of the shields in real world energy measurements. Then Star wars fans could used the scene of a Star Destroyer using a turbo laser to destroy an asteroid of known size and assumes average composition to figurer out the power output of the laser to prove it could overwhelm typical Galaxy class ship shielding.
I think the point is missed that *both* combatants take a considerable risk in melee combat -- a lightsaber may be able to do some serious damage very quickly, but a single hit from a space marine would seriously ruin a Jedi's day.
But the thing is Jedi can do a little thing called "mind trick" and as soon as SM says "AVE", his balls are in the force grip....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: But the thing is Jedi can do a little thing called "mind trick" and as soon as SM says "AVE", his balls are in the force grip....
Lol - do they even have balls?
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Psienesis wrote: If we're talking Space Wolves, that 18 year old Scout probably has a few wives, a half-dozen kids, and has killed a dozen men with his bare hands.
Space wolves initiates are blood claws. The rest is more than likely bang on though ...
Wolf scouts are elites that can't function as part of a pack, or just plain don't fit in. Or just like being on their own etc...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/04 08:22:20
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
...
