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You think its not bouncing off but going through it and than he is pulling the saber out in the same direction? Other-wise that is a continuity error

The depictions of both cortosis and phrik indicate that it deflects lightsabers. In some sources, cortosis will actually shut a lightsaber off, sometimes momentarily, sometimes for several minutes (varies by source).

One thing that keeps popping up in this thread is exploding bolt rounds killing a Jedi with flying shrapnel. The explosive charge of a bolt-round is located behind the armor-piercing shell. If the Jedi has cut or deflected that away with the lightsaber, there's very little left for the explosive charge to create shrapnel out of. The exception to this would be Metal Storm fragmenting bolt-rounds, but those are hardly common-issue amongst Marine forces.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition

 Lynata wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:If the lightsaber was to heat the material of the chainsword to the point that it "evaporates" than it just flash vaporized it. Converting a gram of metal into a gas through heat would subject the jedi (and any likely any unshield human in the nearby area) to a lethal amount of heat and vaporized metal.

Since you've already quoted WP:
"The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape."

Not sure why a small cloud of vaporised metal rising up from the impact location should harm the wielder, tho.

Also, I'd rather work with "proper" quotes from an actual book, as wikis - and I have written up wiki articles myself in the past - may not be all that accurate. For example, whilst I do not actually doubt that material density (marginally) affects the speed at which a lightsaber can cut through something, that quote too is unsourced and thus may well be just fan speculation. Similar to the speculation that Space Marine armour might or might not evoke such an effect.

Grunt13 wrote:4 minutes into the video, handrails deflect lightsaber strikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFvAeSJgjc

I well remember that scene, but that changes nothing on what I said.
Here's a speculation of my own: We could assume that the handrails were perhaps laced with phrik or cortosis, or somehow magnetised in a way that it would affect the containment field emitted by the hilt. Movie pseudoscience go!

On the rails
1) You will find similar background interference in other fight scenes not just the handrails.
2) That requires us to believe the empire used the very rare elements for handrails in the first place.
3) The rails could not be made out of the phrik or cortosis because Luke was able to cut through it with a strong swing - the handrails just resisted severing instantly by the lightsaber.

By converting a metal to a gas you just generated an extreme degree of heat and vaporized metal that would kill everyone in the nearby area. A field protecting the user against the heat produce by the lightsaber's blade would not protect them against the heat of an object vaporized by the blade. The amount of volume a gas covers versus the amount of volume a solid covers is pretty extreme. If all the air in a large room was compressed into a dense solid it would likely be as smaller than a pea. Converting a solid to a gas does the inverse; it fills the room. The jedi would be sprayed and inhaling metal that is heated to an insane degree, well past its molten state.

The field of the saber that keeps the blade from burning its wielder probably also contains a significant portion of heat generated while it cuts through things, though this is supposition (as much supposition as assuming a SM can lift his arms over his head because his pauldrons are somehow moved out of the way).

However, the lightsaber does not necessarily convert solid matter into a gaseous state. The blade is hot enough that it may, possibly, be able to do so, but the object in question will liquify before becoming gaseous, and then follow the dictates of gravitic effects before it can shift from liquid to gas.

Grunt13 wrote:1) You will find similar background interference in other fight scenes not just the handrails.
2) That requires us to believe the empire used the very rare elements for handrails in the first place.
3) The rails could not be made out of the phrik or cortosis because Luke was able to cut through it with a strong swing - the handrails just resisted severing instantly by the lightsaber.

1) I don't recall similar interferences in other scenes, although that must not mean much. I don't consider my memory that reliable when it comes to such minor details.
2) Why should the Empire not have used these elements for hand rails there? It was the Emperor's throne room.
3) My copout excuse: I said "laced" with phrik or cortosis rather than pure, hence reduced efficiency (examples of such combination alloys do exist within the setting, iirc).

But, to prevent us from going in circles, let's just assume that it works as you say. That still leaves us with the question on how it should affect Space Marine armour - and here you simply assume that it wouldn't cut. Based on what? Knowledge on how one fictional material whose exact properties we do not know reacts to a fictional weapon from another setting is non-existent. Luke managed to cut throuth the belly armor of an AT-AT in TESB with a single slash. Maybe Marine armour would split just as easily? We will never know.

Grunt13 wrote:By converting a metal to a gas you just generated an extreme degree of heat and vaporized metal that would kill everyone in the nearby area.

Yet apparently that does not happen in Star Wars, does it?

I'm no physicist, but is flash-vaporizing such a small amount of metal really that dangerous, considering that it happens within an atmosphere of normal temperature, which would surely serve to equalise the heat somewhat?

Psienesis wrote:However, the lightsaber does not necessarily convert solid matter into a gaseous state. The blade is hot enough that it may, possibly, be able to do so, but the object in question will liquify before becoming gaseous, and then follow the dictates of gravitic effects before it can shift from liquid to gas.

By all rights it should - I'm just operating on the lack of molten metal that would get flung around in the various movies, series, etc if it would work that way. Sometimes you see a few drops, but not nearly as much as we should, relative to whatever the weapon just cut through. So my assumption would be that the intense heat is sufficient to achieve evaporation that fast.

... hmm, or maybe the metal just "retracted" inwards, as if pushed aside by the electromagnetically contained plasma blade ... although I'm really not sure if that would make any sense in regards to realism.

 Psienesis wrote:
The depictions of both cortosis and phrik indicate that it deflects lightsabers. In some sources, cortosis will actually shut a lightsaber off, sometimes momentarily, sometimes for several minutes (varies by source).

It's generally accepted that pure Cortosis will short a lightsaber, but it's soft, terrible for anything that isn't a lightsaber. At all. Ever.
Cortosis Weave or Alloy can do other stuff too.

As with 40K and the Black Library, so, too, is Star Wars fluff dependent on source and author.

By all rights it should - I'm just operating on the lack of molten metal that would get flung around in the various movies, series, etc if it would work that way. Sometimes you see a few drops, but not nearly as much as we should, relative to whatever the weapon just cut through. So my assumption would be that the intense heat is sufficient to achieve evaporation that fast.

... hmm, or maybe the metal just "retracted" inwards, as if pushed aside by the electromagnetically contained plasma blade ... although I'm really not sure if that would make any sense in regards to realism.

Well, that starts getting into the question of whether or not the SFX director considered that showing the total volume of liquified metal flying around the screen was worth the cost in CGI or practical effects, which is an entirely separate matter from "realism" or "how it works in-universe". There was an entire scene cut from Ep3 that was to have Kenobi and Skywalker falling through the floor of a TF ship they'd just cut through, into a river of engine coolant or water or something... but the CGI on the liquid effects looked absolutely terrible, so they cut the scene entirely. Showing molten metal flying about and behaving as molten metal should may simply not have been in the budget.

The boiling point of steel is around 3000 C. Due to fact that it is being flash boil the temperature would be significantly higher as boiling point is where the material starts to convert between a liquid and a gas. This vaporize material would expand outwardly in a cloud covering the jedi and marine, the material would cool to a molten state, than to solid white hot state, than to cooler states until it reaches normal temperature. If the lightsaber vaporizes the chainsword teeth, the jedi is boiled to the bone, if the teeth are just turned to a molten state then the jedi would likely be sprayed due to the motion of the spinning teeth on the chainsword. If the teeth are neatly sliced from the blade the jedi would still be sprayed by the shards of metal.

I am of the opinion that a chainsword would survive repeated contacts with the lightsaber due to the fact that the individual teeth are only in contact with the lightsaber for a brief time so the heat is distributed throughout the blade minimizing the temperature change of a weapon that is probably heavily heat shielded due to the amount of friction it that would be generated on contact with armor, and also that it is made from an extremely durable material.

 Psienesis wrote:
The depictions of both cortosis and phrik indicate that it deflects lightsabers. In some sources, cortosis will actually shut a lightsaber off, sometimes momentarily, sometimes for several minutes (varies by source).

One thing that keeps popping up in this thread is exploding bolt rounds killing a Jedi with flying shrapnel. The explosive charge of a bolt-round is located behind the armor-piercing shell. If the Jedi has cut or deflected that away with the lightsaber, there's very little left for the explosive charge to create shrapnel out of. The exception to this would be Metal Storm fragmenting bolt-rounds, but those are hardly common-issue amongst Marine forces.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition

Can a lightsaber stop a physical round?
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/16dt1l/star_wars_what_would_happen_if_a_jedi_tried_to/

If a light saber hits an explosion round it would likely cause that round to detonate - if it is even able to cut through the bolt that is. Reflecting the bolt round would not work as the force behind the round surpasses the physical strength of jedi; and even if he could, stopping the bolts momentum entirely would likely trigger it to explode. The jedi would not be able to knock the bolt away like a tennis ball. Nor would he be able to handle the amount of boltfire the marine could unload upon him even if he could.

We can only guess at what metals the various bits of things in SW are made of. After all, we're assuming its steel, bound by the same physics that steel here on 21c Earth is bound by. We have no knowledge of what space-steel in the SW universe may be bound under, or even if it is steel at all. It may be plas-steel, being a metal-like plastic material, which has a much lower melting point than Earth steel (maybe).


A lightsaber has no physical matter to its blade, other than photons. It is, literally, a sword made of heat and light, having no edge, but also having an edge along every possible angle. So a lightsaber does not "block" bullets, though it can deflect energy pulses (possibly due to the energy field that contains the plasma reaction, but this is speculation).

It can, however, easily melt the "bullet" part of a boltround. Once that is melted, all that is left is the explosive charge that is supposed to make that metal bit shatter (explode) when its inside a target, having just set off the mass-reactive fuse. However, with no leading metal, there's nothing left for the explosive charge to explode. Basically, all you get now is a bang and a flash, but there's no fragmenting metal driven outward by that explosion, because it just evaporated.

However, were I a Jedi in the scenario, I'd be using telekinesis or some other Force trick to stop bolters, not the lightsaber. That would be used to stop low-volume fire, like a lasgun or a bolt-pistol, rather than a full-sized boltgun.

Concussive forces from the explosion would be enough to destroy the jedi. The lightsaber doesn't magically make material disappear; even if it is able to cut through the bolt round the explosion will still have the material of the destroyed bolt to spray in the jedi's face.

Plus from the pervious link:
“confirmed by wookiepedia- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower
For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.”

 Void__Dragon wrote:


It wouldn't melt. It would explode.

Prove it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Congratulations, you have proven that Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, two very powerful, skilled Jed

Obi-Wan as a Padawan was stronger in the force than your average Knight? Interesting assertion. Prove it.

You don't want to make this a feat war, and we both know this Blax.

Well, I don't have a problem destroying your argument and exposing your ignorance of Star Wars to the world. I would advise you to actually read some Star Wars material before we start though, because it would help you not show your ass on the internet for the world to see. Like for example, if you actually knew anything about Star Wars you'd know that Coleman Trebor was a diplomat and a pacifist who was known for his negotiations skills, political know-how and meditations, rather than combat skills, and was a master of Niman, which is called "the diplomat's form" because it isn't combat-intensive and allows the practitioner to focus on things other than fighting, etc etc.

As a casual example of lifting, Mara Jade as a teenage girl was capable of casually lifting a one-ton machine and tossing it at someone. She did it in Allegiance, a Star Wars book you've never read.

Don't reply, I have the high ground.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Plus from the pervious link:
“confirmed by wookiepedia- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower
For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.”

There is no source listed for that statement; calling it irrelevant would be an understatement.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


It wouldn't melt. It would explode.

Prove it.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Plus from the pervious link:
“confirmed by wookiepedia- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower
For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.”

There is no source listed for that statement; calling it irrelevant would be an understatement.

And what exactly would the lightsaber do to the bolt round that would offer the jedi any real protection?

The burden of proof is not on the people arguing against the lightsaber's usefulness in intercepting non-blasters rounds, but on the people who argue for it. Lightsabers have widely demonstrated their ability to intercept the slow moving, apparently massless, composed of basically the same energy, blaster shots. Proving that the relationship will carry through to other forms of projectiles falls to those attempting to make that case. Kryptonite won’t likely kill the hulk for example; and in the same vein of thought, why should people simply agree that a lightsaber could have any significant impact on a solid round without evidence to that effect - where is your proof?

People on Dakka arguing that the lightsaber wouldn’t be very effective against a bolter already made very generous concessions regarding the lightsaber's ability without the lightsaber crowd having to prove anything. The previous thread made numerous logical arguments using physics and common sense against the lightsaber being able to protect against normal solid rounds let alone bolt rounds. The general consensus of that thread, untainted by arguing for another combatant, is that the lightsaber would be a poor defense against any form of solid shot. We don’t have to disprove the notion that lightsabers would be effective against a bolt round any more than we have to find evidence to disprove the notion that Kryptonite will hurt the hulk - so far there is no evidence to disprove.

reposted:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/16dt1l/star_wars_what_would_happen_if_a_jedi_tried_to/

 Grunt13 wrote:

And what exactly would the lightsaber do to the bolt round that would offer the jedi any real protection?

Vaporize it instantly, like it does to any other metal.

The burden of proof is not on the people arguing against the lightsaber's usefulness in intercepting non-blasters rounds, but on the people who argue for it.

No, actually. If you're going to make the claim "a lightsaber wouldn't be able to protect a Jedi from a solid-projectile", you need to provide reasoning that supports it.

There is in-universe instances of Jedi using their lightsabers to deflect slug-throwers. In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu fights on a planet where everyone uses slug-throwers because some sort of aggressive mold prevents blasters from working properly- it is never mentioned once in the narrative that he struggles to deal with the rounds or has to resort to special tactics to defend against them, he just uses his lightsaber to block them like he does with blasters. That's just one example of many that shows that the assumption of solid-projectile weapons trouncing lightsabers is unfounded, and it's kind of a problem that I have with this discussion on a micro-chasm level.

So many of these questions are answered, quite succinctly, in the Star Wars fluff. Why bother jumping into a thread and vehemently arguing that X beats Y when you- and I mean you in a general sense, not specifically- only know a a very shallow amount about the surface material? I don't jump into Star Wars vs. Star Trek debates specifically because the only thing I know about Star Trek is what I've seen from the movies.

This is dumb.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
This is dumb.

Seconded!

Yes it is, but people like VS threads, what can you do?

Even GW does it. The book 'Flesh of Cretacia' ends up with marines going up against something very similar to Godzilla (although it isn't) but they fight anyway (as if it is Godzilla).

It's the same as discussing the lost primarchs (lol.. for this thread it's Vader and Yoda. Somewhere there are some very small green marines) It comes round again and again and occasionally, I learn something new - there'll be some fluff somewhere that I've not read.

Arguing in universe against in universe will go ultimately nowhere, but this threads still going to carry on for a while regardless...

I'm just going to put my feet up and get the popcorn

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:

And what exactly would the lightsaber do to the bolt round that would offer the jedi any real protection?

Vaporize it instantly, like it does to any other metal.

Then the jedi is dead three times over. Vaporization does not mean magically disappear; that the bolt round would not be harmlessly absorb into the lightsaber’s blade or disappear in a tiny puff of soot, like you seem to suggest.

1)
Kinetic energy. This is not magiced away because the matter changes states. The lightsaber would have to absorb the considerably force of the bolt round whether it was a solid, liquid or gas. The force of the round would still be transferred to the jedi. I would expand on this, but I consider it to be irrelevant considering the effects of vaporization. Also it seems to imply that the lightsaber was simply eating the bolt out of existence - that matter was completely destroyed with no ill effect to the person two feet away from said occurrence.

2)
Volume difference between the states:
liquid O2 has a density of 1140 kg/m3
gaseous O2 has a density of 1.29 kg/m3

That means when 1 m3 of liquid O2 is converted to a gas its volume balloons up to 884 m3. To give perspective to this, one thimble containing a volume of 1 cm3 of liquid O2 would fill an 2 meter by 2 meter by 2 meter volume in its gaseous state.

Steel has a boiling point 3000 C - I don;t know the boiling point of diamantine or deuterium or any other elements of the bolt round, but in order to vaporize the round it would have to be heated to past the boiling point of its most tempered component. The lightsaber would turn convert the .75 caliber bullet you could hold in your hand into a death cloud centered on him. This cloud would transfer its heat to the surrounding environment, which includes the jedi. He would also enjoy a thin molten steel coating as the metal/material “cooled” and “dewed” upon his skin. The temperature would diffuse outward fairly rapidly superheating the air and environment. I would dare to make a guess that anyone unshielded human within 3 meters would be dead, 5 meters horrible burned, 10 meters might walk away from it. But this scenario is unrealistic because:

3)
I said “cloud” in my previous statement, that was misleading. It gives the impression that bolt was gentle converted into vapor and dropped on the jedi. The reaction of flash vaporization would be extremely violent. People a mile away would look up to the sky and say, “Was that thunder?” There would be a significant explosion due to the rapid expansion of the bolt round into a mass of vapor.

“Vaporization” has become a joke in the sci-fi realms, the star trek wiki addresses that the “vaporization” setting for phasers isn’t really vaporization. As Kirk can flash a Klingon out of existence without killing everyone in the nearby area:

“Phasers at full power have been known to make their targets completely disappear, an effect often described as "vaporization", although it is never accompanied by the violent explosion and superheated cloud of vapor one would expect from vaporizing a target such as a human in less than a second.”
http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wiki/index.php/Phaser

I really doubt lightsabers would vaporized an entire bullet; where is your evidence for this event - a solid round vanishing on contact with the lightsaber. And there is no reason at all to insist that the bolt round would not detonate on contact with the lightsaber if the bolt was burn through or its course changed by being batted aside. One bolt round fired at the jedi would be a serious problem and boltguns fire in bursts.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
This is dumb.

Seconded!

I've been saying that for three pages, yet it marches onward. Much like the Imperium, I guess.

I don;t know the boiling point of diamantine or deuterium or any other elements of the bolt round

Deuterium (which is a real thing) has a boiling point of -249.6 degrees Celsius. Yes, negative two hundred forty-nine-point-six.

I said “cloud” in my previous statement, that was misleading. It gives the impression that bolt was gentle converted into vapor and dropped on the jedi. The reaction of flash vaporization would be extremely violent. People a mile away would look up to the sky and say, “Was that thunder?” There would be a significant explosion due to the rapid expansion of the bolt round into a mass of vapor.

There's not enough volume of matter in the bolt round to cause a mile-plus range audible reaction. This, however, is not the point of the discussion, because you're trying to bring Real Science into a discussion of Space Marines vs Jedi. If we wanted to get into that, I could point out that whoever designed the bolter round must have worked for the Warren Commission, because the bolt-round's design requires the cartridge to be leaving the barrel along with the bullet, otherwise there's nothing behind the gyro-stabilizing element (which can be affixed to the butt of the round) to hold the explosive charge (which the bolter requires) or the rocket propulsion materials in place. This, of course, renders the bolt-round into an absolutely untenable device. Its initial charge would have trouble throwing its mass more than a couple meters (when the length of the barrel is all it is designed to accomplish), and that at velocities that, at best, would cause a moderate bruise, as the rocket-propulsion system, lacking anything to channel its thrust backwards, rather than in every direction as the powder billows out around the muzzle of the bolter, igniting in a bright flash and a fizzle.

Which brings us, once again, to the point I made in my initial post. This is a 40K forum so, of course, the Space Marine wins.

Psienesis wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:This is dumb.

Seconded!

I've been saying that for three pages, yet it marches onward.

Yeah... I allowed myself to get baited into the debate in spite of my initial remarks regarding the absurdity of such comparisons and the extreme reliance on baseless assumptions.
But I got better!

40k vs SW discussions always end up going full SIMPLE JACK.

This always degenerates into who would win the space war. 40k fanboys always selectively point to the Black Library books for feats dealing with firepower.

Based on back-calculations on power needed to vaporise the requisite quantity of rock, 40k always wins the firepower arguement with three caveats.

1. The 40k fanboys always discount the fact that main gun (novacannon/lance) firepower is rated at between 10 000x to 100 000x the CANON stated power of torpedoes (600GT IIRC). The trouble is that both weapon types are noted in CANON as being effective against enemy ship armor. If the torpedo numbers are accurate, then the lance batteries output enough power to one-shot enemy ships. If the battery power is accurate, then torpedoes are woefully ineffective. Cumulative damage can't really be factored in when you are talking about such a huge difference in stated power. You could fire at the front armor of an M1 with a 9mm pistol without harming it in the least. If the upper numbers are used, Star Wars has zero chance of winning. If the lower numbers are used, Star Wars is underpowered by a magnitude of ~10.

2. 40k fanboys (and 40k canon in general) always ignores logistics requirements necessary to supply, feed and water a fighting force as ridiculously huge as the IoM. Sure, they have agri-worlds and forge worlds, but they never discuss how this materiel actually gets to its fighting forces. Star Wars doesn't have this problem.

3. A 40k victory depends heavily on the assumption that warp travel is possible AND reliable where this showdown is happening. While slower, Star Wars has CONSISTENT space travel speed.

On an aside, I postulated that based on void shield capacity capable of resisting novacannon shots (BFG), ship generator output (discounting engines) needs to be on the magnitude of 0.1 solar outputs / s. 40k technology uses PLASMA reactors in current CANON and "fusion" in legacy CANON. The sun is a hydrogen fusion reactor. Anti-matter / matter reactions are the most efficient known theoretical power source based on energy gained / mass of fuel. 40k outputs require efficiency upwards of at least 10^5x more, but IoM supporters just wave this off using the "superior technology" arguement. This, of course, is impossible to disprove - and since all 40k vs anything arguments ALWAYS go down this route, let's just declare 40k the winner of everything. (Few exceptions... the Culture could probably take the IoM).

 keezus wrote:
40k vs SW discussions always end up going full SIMPLE JACK. This always degenerates into who would win the space war.

Looks like you are doing that single handedly.

 Glorioski wrote:

 keezus wrote:
40k vs SW discussions always end up going full SIMPLE JACK. This always degenerates into who would win the space war.

Looks like you are doing that single handedly.

I sacrifice brain cells, so you don't have to.

Oh I see. Thank you.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
This is dumb.

Seconded!

I wanted to say I was surprised it went three pages. Then I realized it wasn't surprising, sadly.

Does he realize this was suppose to be us simply answering his questions around the idea of who would win on a 1 vs 1

Not the Imperium of Man vs the entire Jedi Order

Probably not but, as we mentioned on page 1, there's no correct answer to the question. It all depends on what forum its being posted on.

So, here on Dakka, I'm going to say "Space Marine". If you ask me over on Star Destroyer or Holocron, I'll say "Jedi".

 Psienesis wrote:
Probably not but, as we mentioned on page 1, there's no correct answer to the question. It all depends on what forum its being posted on.

So, here on Dakka, I'm going to say "Space Marine". If you ask me over on Star Destroyer or Holocron, I'll say "Jedi".

It was OT, but in the end, the intent is to demonstrate of how these discussions always end, regardless of intention, as both sides have different ideas on what constitute allowable feats. There is tons of moving the goalposts around. Any scientific breakdowns usually countered with vaguely defined feats from background... in the end, the winning side is usually the one that has more "unexplainable" abilities backed up by "magic" and/or "super high technology"

To use the SM vs Jedi example

Jedi have mind-powers. Advantage Jedi right? (This is my personal opinion actually) - however, also obviously countered by the unverifiable "Marines fight the taint of Chaos everyday" BS (suggesting Strong Minds!) and the "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded" quote from A New Hope.

SM are genetically engineered - but HOW genetically engineered? How fast? From say, the Space Marine game, they don't seem much faster than a human... would seem to be advantage Jedi right? But I'm sure there's some part of a Black Library book somewhere that would suggest that marines are super humanly fast - with some vague "drew the weapon faster than he could see" type description, or the "cleave through three orks before they could react" type hyperbole.

The argument can continue ad-nauseum considering how much expanded universe / black library gak there is to mine from. To get any sort of constructive feedback, the OP needs to more rigidly set the ground rules for debate.

Yep. Though we covered this, too. Sort of. We have Move/Black Library/Table Top/Video Game/RPG Marines vs Movie/TV Show/Comic Book/Book/Video Game/RPG Jedi. What constitutes "average" is going to be *heavily* influenced by the starting point.

If I wanted to use the Space Marine video game as an example, a Space Marine is a super-badass who is also, sometimes, occasionally killed by an exploding pig.

fething Squigs. One of them is more threatning than like 3 nobs

Jedi, 100%.

Space marine armor is not invincible. It goes down to power weapons all the time, and those are merely regular swords with disruption fields, a light sabre would go through marine armor like it wasn't even there. Furthermore, light sabres can certainly handle solid-slug ammunition. None of the space marine's shots would actually hit.

Furthermore, the WS and BS of Jedi are both insane, and they can use psychic powers without running the risk of perils of the warp.

There is literally nothing that a space marine has over a jedi other than numbers and, depending where in the SW universe you're talking about, they don't even have that.

A space marine is to a jedi asa guardsman is to a space marine.