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2013/07/03 04:27:13
Subject: 1750 Game Kastle RTT Tournament, June 30 (Game #1 on p.3)
Big Z is a BOSS. Throw him in with 10 Tesla Immortals and a teleporter.
Congrats on roundone. It's hard to fit in adequate means to deal with AV14 on top of everything else you see these days. Kudos for taking advantage. Gutsy move, but it has payed off so far!
Just so that you don't have to flip back and forth to see my list again.
Rune Priest Loki - Meltabombs - Jaws of the World Wolf, Murderous Hurricane Rune Priest Blackheart - Jaws of the World Wolf, Stormcaller Rune Priest Goldmoon - Boltgun - Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning
Land Raider Prometheus "Prometheus" - Multi-melta (Note - Elite selection)
Land Raider "Larry"
Land Raider Helios "Helios"
Land Raider Achilles "Achilles" - Seige Shield
1750 Necrons + Grey Knights
William aka ImotekhTheStormlord is a local player as well as one of my opponents from the BAO 2013. He was also my only loss at the BAO, where he also brought Grey Knights + Necrons. He may be young, but don't let his years fool you. He is deceptively good with his army. I must admit that I under-estimated his army at the BAO, which was one of the reasons that resulted in my loss (with the other being the dice). Time for some payback. Heh, heh....
His list is going off memory as I don't have a copy of it. Will, feel free to correct me with regards to your list.
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackles
Coteaz - Prescience, ?
5x Necron Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Necron Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Necron Warriors - Night Scythe
Tertiary (1-pt each): First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord
Actually, missions were altered slightly. The bonus points for Scouring Fast Attacks or Big Gun Heavy Supports actually count toward the Overall score and not the mission objectives. Thus, you can conceivably get up to 14-pts per game. I attribute this to a misunderstanding of the BAO rules, but it doesn't matter. I still aim to crush all my opponents.
William is going to have a hard time against my army. He just doesn't match up well against it. The only danger is the dreadknight and his Warlord, the Destroyer Lord. I can kill them easily enough however. Lascannons and meltas for the dreadknight. Jaws for the D-lord. After that, he's got nothing that can really hurt my raiders. Wraiths won't really bother them too much. Moreover, this is Big Guns. 3 of my land raiders are scoring. I can just sit on the objectives with them and if I can get the Relic into a raider, it's game over. The only chance my opponent has got is if he went 2nd and the game ends on 5 with him dropping them off on objectives. But with me winning the roll for Initiative, there goes that strategy as I choose to go 2nd. I see another potential blowout coming. What will be interesting to see is what type of resistance my opponent can put up.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: (by William)
*sigh* Unfortunately, Jim's was the one army in this tournament which I did not feel comfortable playing against. I had very few units that can actually damage the raiders, fewer still that have a reasonable chance of success. To make matters worse, 3/4 of the Land Raiders in this mission are SCORING, and they have the ability to tank shock any of my infantry units off the objectives. The Relic here is all but lost, he can simply park a raider on top of it for most of the game, and big guns is not looking too great either.
At first I considered an attempt to rush his raiders with my two most effective AT units( Dlord+Wraiths and Dreadknight), but he had more than enough lascannons and melta to put down the Dreadknight in a single turn and Jaws would make short work of my warlord and his pals. Clearly I would have to play a defensive game, so what could I do? My aim before deployment was as follows: To use the wraiths and Destroyer lord's threat bubble to keep the Land Raiders off of my Big Guns objectives for most of the game, while hopefully staying away from Jaws. Of the two objectives destined to be on my side, I intended to park one behind some LOS blocking cover, and I hoped Jim would place the other near my table edge. Turn 5, (banking on no turn 6) I should drop off my warriors to contest his Big Guns Objectives and the relic, while hopefully maintaining the integrity of my backfield objective. Up until that point my strategy would be to stall. I would reserve much of my force, feeding it to the guns of Jim's army piece by piece, trying to keep him occupied and off of my objectives.
All my carefully thought-out plans then promptly went to blazes when Jim won the roll-off and chose to go second, dashing my hopes for easy contesting on the rocks of shattered dreams . Now, assuming Jim did not pass out from heatstroke ( it was hellishly hot in the tourney room) or blunder horribly ( very unlikely), he could grind out a win with little difficulty.
I would have to hope for incredible dice luck to pull this one off.
Necron deployment. William deploys only his wraithstar and 2 Annihilation Barges. His AB's are on an objective behind the hill.
My deployment. I deploy very aggressively on my deployment edge.
My opponent tries to "persuade" me to steal the initiative, but I don't fall for those mind games. As a matter of fact, I'm usually the one who plays them.
Not much. He moves and then runs his wraiths back.
Space Wolves 1
Spoiler:
I move everything forwards 6" except Achilles, who moves 12" instead. I give my opponent a little bit of a break by disembarking Loki's unit.
The might of all my firepower kills 3 wraiths. Unfortunately, he passes his 1 initiative test against Jaws so I have disembarked the unit for nothing.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Thanks to his Warlord Trait (re-roll reserves), almost all of his reserves come in. Like a shark who smells blood in the water, necrons go after my exposed hunter unit.
Coteaz's unit crowd around his objective.
Wraiths advance.
Between the 2 night scythes, 1 annihilation barge snap-firing and the dreadknight heavy incinerator, he wipes out the entire unit, including Loki, for First Blood.
Space Wolves 2
Spoiler:
Just a minor setback is all. It still shouldn't change the outcome....I hope. I mobilize my LR's.
Have I learned my lesson? Nah....
You know who Rune Priest Goldmoon is going for, don't you? Hunters split off from Goldmoon and is insurance in case I don't kill the dreadknight.
It takes all of my firepower, but I manage to bring down his dreadknight.
That's +1VP because he is a heavy support.
More importantly, Jaws from Goldmoon takes out his Warlord.
Like I said, just a temporary setback is all.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
The rest of his reserves come in. Night scythe and shunting Interceptors go after my grey hunters.
Both of the nights scythes that were on the table fly off it.
Wraiths prepare for a possible multi-assault. AB's target Goldmoon.
Shooting from the 2 AB's, night scythe and interceptors kill Goldmoon and 4 hunters.
Wraiths then multi-assault my hunter and the raider. Smart play by my opponent. He only puts 1 wraith on the hunter. He's trying to not kill my hunter and to stay locked in combat so I can't shoot down his wraiths next turn.
But unfortunately for him, my lone hunter dies anyways. Wraiths consolidate back.
So far, my opponent is playing really well, taking advantage of whatever I give him. He's managed to wipe out 2 scoring units and 2 HQ's already. However, that's all he's going to get. Now that I've killed both of his threats to my land raiders, there really is no need for me to disembark except for the objectives.
Space Wolves 3
Spoiler:
Achilles tank shock forwards. I am going for my Heavy Supports.
The rest of my movement.
Shooting kills 1 wraith and put 1W on another. Achilles takes off 2 HP's from his AB and blows off its tesla-destructor
I only kill 2 interceptors. However, I do manage to blow away 1 night scythe. 2 more to go.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Both of his scythes come in on opposite flanks.
Wraiths, interceptors and AB's move.
Since shooting is just scratching paint, we go straight into assault. Assault turns out to be more of the same paint-scratching.
Space Wolves 4
Spoiler:
I move Achilles back while advancing Larry 6".
Hunters disembark. Helios then moves back 12" towards my objective.
Shooting takes out the interceptors, wraiths and 1 AB.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
Night scythe drops off his troops to contest my objective. The sycthe then goes after the grey hunters.
His other scythe moves and drops off his troops to claim an objective. They can only snapfire since his scythe moved over 24".
Acolytes and AB advance.
Warriors come in to claim his objective.
Unfortunately for my opponent, his forward AB (the one closest to Achilles) immobilizes itself while trying to move flat-out.
Warriors and night scythe shoot at my wolves and kill 2. I pass morale.
Space Wolves 5
Spoiler:
So here's the situation. Currently, I am actually losing. No one has the Relic yet. My opponent has got 3 objectives and is contesting my 1 objective. There's actually a slight chance that, if a couple of dice doesn't go my way, I may actually lose!
Helios tank shocks the warriors to move them out of the way. However, they are still within contesting range so I don't have this objective yet.
Prometheus then prepares to gun them down.
My Warlord finally disembarks and goes to join the hunters, who prepare for assault.
Here, I need a good 6" move through difficult terrain in order to make it to the Relic....and I get it!
That should be game there.
The rest of my tanks move. Larry goes flat-out towards my opponent's objective.
Shooting only kills 2 warriors. However, they fail Morale and fall back before I get a chance to wipe them out in assault.
Prometheus kills 3 warriors and 1 gets back up. However, I forget about my Auspex reducing his cover by -1. Would have probably wiped them out.
Achilles takes out the immobilized AB for another +1 VP but cannot take out his last AB.
My opponent has got 1 objective as well for a push on Big Guns Never Tire.
However, I've got the Primary - the Relic - for 4-pts.
My opponent has First Blood (grey hunters) and Linebreaker (warriors) for a total of 2-pts. I've got the Relic (4-pts), Warlord, Linebreaker (land raider Larry) and 3 Heavy Support VP's (dreadknight, 2 AB's) for a total of 9-pts.
Another game going exactly as I expected. Barring extreme dice, my opponent's only real chance against my list was to go 2nd. When that didn't happen, he had almost no chance. However, William did play extremely well, taking advantage of whatever breaks I gave him. He actually made it a game until the very end. Had my wolves not made their 6" difficult terrain test to get to the Relic, we would have been tied with Primary and Secondary, with me winning the game only due to the Big Gun bonus points. I think that against any other army, he would have done alright. Unfortunately for him, he got the matchup that he didn't want.
Actually, I don't think anyone there wanted to play against my 4-LR list.
Coming up, there are only 4 unbeaten players. I believe Kevin (Janthkin) is at top with a perfect 20-pts. I'm pretty high up with 19-pts. Adam and his Triptide Tau is also 2-0 though one of his games was a close one. Lastly, we have Jason (z3n1st here on dakka) and his beautiful taudar with the Nightwing. Of the 3, I've played against and beaten both Adam and Kevin. Actually, I've beaten Jason as well a long time ago (in my very first tournament) but haven't played at all recently. I know Kevin didn't really wanted to play me, but I think the final matchup is going to be between my wolves and his Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space Marines.....assuming we are matched up by Battle Points. If not, then no worries. I don't see much here that can handle my raiders anyways.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 21:52:18
hippesthippo wrote: Haywire Crypteks could pop them. I always ran 5 Gauss Immortals with a Cryptek in my Scythes. That way I could drive by melta and survive long enough tohop backinmyride.
Yeah. I'm actually thinking about changing up my necrons. Swap out 1 of my D-lords and some wraiths for Zandrekh and some storm-teks. But that is when I go back to my necrons....which may be a while.
I'm not a competitive player by any stretch of the imagination, but I do enjoy mathhammer (perhaps too much) ...
I love Stormteks. I think they're awesome tank killers and harassment units. However, it's important not to over-play their abilities. 5 necron warriors and one stormtek aren't super-reliable tank killers:
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle in one volley: 73% (92% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle with jink in one volley: 41% (65% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 4 hull point vehicle in one volley: 47% (77% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a soul grinder in one volley: 19% (40% with tank hunter)
There are a couple of things that compound these relatively low percentages. You don't have a guarantee of when they'll arrive. Chances are they won't be able to kill the tank in question the turn they do arrive (both the staff and rapid fire have a 12" range). Even if they arrive and are in range, the turn they arrive you can't give them tank hunter. The final nail in the coffin is the fact that if you fail, the unit will usually get wiped (leaving only the stormtek with a 1/3 chance of getting up).
Personally, I like to run a 3 man royal court (Veiltek + 2x Stormteks, 110 points). They're much better at killing tanks, assuming you can stick the landing:
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle in one volley: 92% (98% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle with jink in one volley: 64% (76% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 4 hull point vehicle in one volley: 77% (90% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a soul grinder in one volley: 39% (52% with tank hunter)
I like that you know they're on the table from turn 1 (ready to receive tank hunter), and you can deploy them hidden out of LoS. If your opponent has a tank they will often net you first blood, and if you fail to kill the tank one of them will probably get back up denying your opponent first blood (70% chance of at least one). The unit is also quite annoying, and has to be answered. And even if only one Stormtek gets back up, sometimes he can leg it towards a second tank for some extra damage. A side bonus is that from time to time the veiltek will survive, which is great for late game contesting.
Personally, I'm a bit afraid of soul grinders, so I'm toying wiht the idea of running three or even four stormteks. I also play Tau a lot, so the stormtek volume of fire can actually sometimes take a firewarrior squad. The squad's also pretty flexible, in that you can throw the Overlord in the unit for added fun, of even a destroyer lord just to put the fear in your opponent's heart.
Part of the advantage of this unit is that it screws with your opponent's mind (consistent with Jys's positional dominance ideas, I suppose). People won't push forward as hard when they need to deal with a threat at home (even an inexpensive 110 point threat that keeps getting back up again).
2000 pts
Compel wrote:
Because in a universe where the basic weapon is a rocket propelled grenade machine gun, with gigantic battletanks, 5 kilometer long spaceships, huge robots and power armoured supersoldiers, the most powerful guy you want to field on a battlefield is a bloke in a pointy hat carrying a stick.
2013/07/03 06:00:47
Subject: 1750 Game Kastle RTT Tournament, June 30 (Game #1 on p.3)
Tbh, that is where Immothek's list is flawed. You don't need haywire teks but most have enough Wraiths/Double Dlord to make a threat to heavy armour. He will make a mess however of most other lists!!
The knigh while able yes needs to shunt or try to come closer without much protection. So indeed only the wraith unit is primary threat.
Howeveri only see a minor victory happening if he plays conservative, you don't have the push nor numbers to go play a aggressive strategy...
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/07/03 13:10:43
Subject: 1750 Game Kastle RTT Tournament, June 30 (Game #1 on p.3)
Well, it just so happens Necron lists have about a million other sources of s7 shooting to take the last hp off if needed. AV14 really isnt that popular. Lastly, what are the odds of a unit with 2 meltaguns destroying a tank? Exactly.
Having the option to keep the court intact does come in handy, but 99% of the time you're not gonna need to do that.
Back on topic, best of luck Will, looks like you'll need it!
*sigh* Unfortunately, Jim's was the one army in this tournament which I did not feel comfortable playing against. I had very few units that can actually damage the raiders, fewer still that have a reasonable chance of success. To make matters worse, 3/4 of the Land Raiders in this mission are SCORING, and they have the ability to tank shock any of my infantry units off the objectives. The Relic here is all but lost, he can simply park a raider on top of it for most of the game, and big guns is not looking too great either.
At first I considered an attempt to rush his raiders with my two most effective AT units( Dlord+Wraiths and Dreadknight), but he had more than enough lascannons and melta to put down the Dreadknight in a single turn and Jaws would make short work of my warlord and his pals. Clearly I would have to play a defensive game, so what could I do? My aim before deployment was as follows: To use the wraiths and Destroyer lord's threat bubble to keep the Land Raiders off of my Big Guns objectives for most of the game, while hopefully staying away from Jaws. Of the two objectives destined to be on my side, I intended to park one behind some LOS blocking cover, and I hoped Jim would place the other near my table edge. Turn 5, (banking on no turn 6) I should drop off my warriors to contest his Big Guns Objectives and the relic, while hopefully maintaining the integrity of my backfield objective. Up until that point my strategy would be to stall. I would reserve much of my force, feeding it to the guns of Jim's army piece by piece, trying to keep him occupied and off of my objectives.
All my carefully thought-out plans then promptly went to blazes when Jim won the roll-off and chose to go second, dashing my hopes for easy contesting on the rocks of shattered dreams . Now, assuming Jim did not pass out from heatstroke ( it was hellishly hot in the tourney room) or blunder horribly ( very unlikely), he could grind out a win with little difficulty.
I would have to hope for incredible dice luck to pull this one off.
hippesthippo wrote: Haywire Crypteks could pop them. I always ran 5 Gauss Immortals with a Cryptek in my Scythes. That way I could drive by melta and survive long enough tohop backinmyride.
Yeah. I'm actually thinking about changing up my necrons. Swap out 1 of my D-lords and some wraiths for Zandrekh and some storm-teks. But that is when I go back to my necrons....which may be a while.
I'm not a competitive player by any stretch of the imagination, but I do enjoy mathhammer (perhaps too much) ...
I love Stormteks. I think they're awesome tank killers and harassment units. However, it's important not to over-play their abilities. 5 necron warriors and one stormtek aren't super-reliable tank killers:
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle in one volley: 73% (92% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle with jink in one volley: 41% (65% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 4 hull point vehicle in one volley: 47% (77% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a soul grinder in one volley: 19% (40% with tank hunter)
There are a couple of things that compound these relatively low percentages. You don't have a guarantee of when they'll arrive. Chances are they won't be able to kill the tank in question the turn they do arrive (both the staff and rapid fire have a 12" range). Even if they arrive and are in range, the turn they arrive you can't give them tank hunter. The final nail in the coffin is the fact that if you fail, the unit will usually get wiped (leaving only the stormtek with a 1/3 chance of getting up).
Personally, I like to run a 3 man royal court (Veiltek + 2x Stormteks, 110 points). They're much better at killing tanks, assuming you can stick the landing:
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle in one volley: 92% (98% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle with jink in one volley: 64% (76% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 4 hull point vehicle in one volley: 77% (90% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a soul grinder in one volley: 39% (52% with tank hunter)
I like that you know they're on the table from turn 1 (ready to receive tank hunter), and you can deploy them hidden out of LoS. If your opponent has a tank they will often net you first blood, and if you fail to kill the tank one of them will probably get back up denying your opponent first blood (70% chance of at least one). The unit is also quite annoying, and has to be answered. And even if only one Stormtek gets back up, sometimes he can leg it towards a second tank for some extra damage. A side bonus is that from time to time the veiltek will survive, which is great for late game contesting.
Personally, I'm a bit afraid of soul grinders, so I'm toying wiht the idea of running three or even four stormteks. I also play Tau a lot, so the stormtek volume of fire can actually sometimes take a firewarrior squad. The squad's also pretty flexible, in that you can throw the Overlord in the unit for added fun, of even a destroyer lord just to put the fear in your opponent's heart.
Part of the advantage of this unit is that it screws with your opponent's mind (consistent with Jys's positional dominance ideas, I suppose). People won't push forward as hard when they need to deal with a threat at home (even an inexpensive 110 point threat that keeps getting back up again).
Nice to know. Thanks for the tips.
Valek wrote: Tbh, that is where Immothek's list is flawed. You don't need haywire teks but most have enough Wraiths/Double Dlord to make a threat to heavy armour. He will make a mess however of most other lists!!
The knigh while able yes needs to shunt or try to come closer without much protection. So indeed only the wraith unit is primary threat.
Howeveri only see a minor victory happening if he plays conservative, you don't have the push nor numbers to go play a aggressive strategy...
Yeah, one of my weaknesses is that I can only be in so many locations at a time. If I want to disembark my troops, I can only move 6" with my tanks. Thus, with this type of list, you really need to plan ahead, not like necrons who can just drop off troops anywhere on the last turn. There is a good chance that he can tie on Big Guns...that is, if he can survive my counter-attack since I am going 2nd. That means his troops still need to survive 1 turn of shooting + possible assault and not get tank shocked off the objective.
hippesthippo wrote: Well, it just so happens Necron lists have about a million other sources of s7 shooting to take the last hp off if needed. AV14 really isnt that popular. Lastly, what are the odds of a unit with 2 meltaguns destroying a tank? Exactly.
Having the option to keep the court intact does come in handy, but 99% of the time you're not gonna need to do that.
Back on topic, best of luck Will, looks like you'll need it!
This is precisely what I had in mind when I designed this list. The majority of shooting nowadays in a competitive build is S6/7. There may be a few meltaguns here and there, but most people have traded in a substantial number of their meltas for plasmas. Lances are definitely a concern, but with the exception of venom-spam (i.e. Frankie's army), most eldar players don't spam them, opting for S6/7 shooting instead.
My biggest concerns was Bobby's triple-dreadknight Draigowing w/hammerdins army, necron scarab-farm, IG with vendettas/manticores and probably FMC-spam, none of which showed up at the tournament.
The space wolf list is pretty hilarious. Can't wait to see the rest of the games.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
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2013/07/04 17:34:31
Subject: 1750 Game Kastle RTT Tournament, June 30 (Game #1 on p.3)
hippesthippo wrote: Haywire Crypteks could pop them. I always ran 5 Gauss Immortals with a Cryptek in my Scythes. That way I could drive by melta and survive long enough tohop backinmyride.
Yeah. I'm actually thinking about changing up my necrons. Swap out 1 of my D-lords and some wraiths for Zandrekh and some storm-teks. But that is when I go back to my necrons....which may be a while.
I'm not a competitive player by any stretch of the imagination, but I do enjoy mathhammer (perhaps too much) ...
I love Stormteks. I think they're awesome tank killers and harassment units. However, it's important not to over-play their abilities. 5 necron warriors and one stormtek aren't super-reliable tank killers:
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle in one volley: 73% (92% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle with jink in one volley: 41% (65% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 4 hull point vehicle in one volley: 47% (77% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a soul grinder in one volley: 19% (40% with tank hunter)
There are a couple of things that compound these relatively low percentages. You don't have a guarantee of when they'll arrive. Chances are they won't be able to kill the tank in question the turn they do arrive (both the staff and rapid fire have a 12" range). Even if they arrive and are in range, the turn they arrive you can't give them tank hunter. The final nail in the coffin is the fact that if you fail, the unit will usually get wiped (leaving only the stormtek with a 1/3 chance of getting up).
Personally, I like to run a 3 man royal court (Veiltek + 2x Stormteks, 110 points). They're much better at killing tanks, assuming you can stick the landing:
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle in one volley: 92% (98% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 3 hull point vehicle with jink in one volley: 64% (76% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a 4 hull point vehicle in one volley: 77% (90% with tank hunter)
Chances to kill a soul grinder in one volley: 39% (52% with tank hunter)
I like that you know they're on the table from turn 1 (ready to receive tank hunter), and you can deploy them hidden out of LoS. If your opponent has a tank they will often net you first blood, and if you fail to kill the tank one of them will probably get back up denying your opponent first blood (70% chance of at least one). The unit is also quite annoying, and has to be answered. And even if only one Stormtek gets back up, sometimes he can leg it towards a second tank for some extra damage. A side bonus is that from time to time the veiltek will survive, which is great for late game contesting.
Personally, I'm a bit afraid of soul grinders, so I'm toying wiht the idea of running three or even four stormteks. I also play Tau a lot, so the stormtek volume of fire can actually sometimes take a firewarrior squad. The squad's also pretty flexible, in that you can throw the Overlord in the unit for added fun, of even a destroyer lord just to put the fear in your opponent's heart.
Part of the advantage of this unit is that it screws with your opponent's mind (consistent with Jys's positional dominance ideas, I suppose). People won't push forward as hard when they need to deal with a threat at home (even an inexpensive 110 point threat that keeps getting back up again).
I feel like I'm missing something, why is it so unlikely to kill a soulgrinder? Sure it's just a 4HP vehicle with jink?
Armies: Crimson Fists, Orks, Eldar
2013/07/04 22:13:39
Subject: Re:1750 Game Kastle RTT Tournament, June 30 (Game #1 on p.3)
pretre wrote: The space wolf list is pretty hilarious. Can't wait to see the rest of the games.
Yeah, unusual isn't it? When you think of LR-spam, you often think Blood Angels or Black Templars. With long fangs and TWC, who in their right mind would run SWLR-spam?!?
CaptainJay wrote: I feel like I'm missing something, why is it so unlikely to kill a soulgrinder? Sure it's just a 4HP vehicle with jink?
It could be worse because of all the buffs that daemons can put on him. Tzeetch units re-roll 1's on their saves. You can also put Forewarning and the Grimoire on the grinders for up to a 2++ re-rollable save!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/04 22:18:01
.. Allow me to clarify. Mech isn't dead. You need something in your army that can deal with high AV effectively. Melta, and melta-equivalents (haywire), are an example.
MC Smash, Railguns, Zoanthropes, etc. If you want to build a balanced list, you must have a plan in place for dealing with AV14. Otherwise, you risk losing to a relatively crummy spoiler army simply because you traded out all your melta for plasma.
BTW, if you can kill 3/4 Land Raiders, you'll prolly win.. So I'm not too worried about the single melta-proof Raider.
Jim took a smart gamble and it paid off. Prolly won't work again at the same store
My last game of the day wasn't against Kevin and his ever-dangerous Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space Marines. Instead, it was against Jason (aka z3n1st here on dakka) and his Eldar-Tau alliance. While many would call that Taudar, the "true" eldar players prefer to call themselves Eldau. I think that is also a great way to greet people: "eldau you do?" In any case, I've been having horrible luck against the new eldar recently, losing to Blackmoor once and to Grant Theft Auto (the Tournament Organizer, BTW) twice and only managing to tie with Reece despite bringing a triple-heldrake list. Could this be the end of my losing streak? Let us begin....
1750 Quad Pro Quo Space Wolves
Just so that you don't have to flip back and forth to see my list again.
Rune Priest Loki - Meltabombs - Jaws of the World Wolf, Murderous Hurricane Rune Priest Blackheart - Jaws of the World Wolf, Stormcaller Rune Priest Goldmoon - Boltgun - Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning
Land Raider Prometheus "Prometheus" - Multi-melta (Note - Elite selection)
Land Raider "Larry"
Land Raider Helios "Helios"
Land Raider Achilles "Achilles" - Seige Shield
1750 Eldar + Tau
My opponent Jason, known as z3n1st here on the forums, is not a regular 40K'er here at our LGS, at least not when I'm around. In all my times there, I have never played against him. However, this is not our first encounter. I've actually played against him before in my very first RTT here at the Kastle. Ironically, I also brought space wolves to that tournament and was able to eke out a victory against his mech-guards.
Tertiary (1-pt each): First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord
Actually, missions were altered slightly. The bonus points for Scouring Fast Attacks or Big Gun Heavy Supports actually count toward the Overall score and not the mission objectives. Thus, you can conceivably get up to 14-pts per game. I attribute this to a misunderstanding of the BAO rules, but it doesn't matter. I still aim to crush all my opponents.
I'm not too concerned about his list. His only AT is the Nightwing and the Riptide (with only 1 S9 blast). Otherwise, the most he can do is to try to glance my tanks to death. What I am concerned about, however, are his jetbikes. Basically, he can just zip to objectives to claim/contest at will on Turn 5 and there really isn't too much I can do about it besides to hope the game doesn't end. Killing them will be a tall order since he will most likely reserve them and hide them behind LOS-blocking terrain. Even though I don't foresee him really doing much to my army, if he plays his cards right, Jason just may steal this one. My advantage is my resiliency. His is his mobility....and the fact that he is going 2nd in a multiple-objectives game.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: (by Jason)
It had been years since I played against Jim and his puppies, and the last time we met the Eldar were forced to retreat. I knew Jim was a solid player, and I was going to have a rough game if I faced him. Then I saw his list *gulp*. Now statistically I should be able to glance one raider a turn to death, or near death (9 shots TL, with Tankhunter), however in my practice games that never really happened against my friends Russ so yeah…it was going to be a tough fight. Hopefully the Riptide and Nightwing can pick up the slack if the Reapers don’t quite pull their load. I had Jim on maneuverability, but that doesn’t mean much if I can’t crack those turtle shells as he will simply drive close to negate my psychic powers and shoot me down with his big guns. My biggest hope is to stall his advance and surround him so that he can’t focus his fire using terrain/his own big tanks to block his shooting.
Space wolf deployment. I deploy slightly to the right due to the objectives.
Eldau deployment. He joins the Tau Commander, farseer and spiritseer to the dark reapers.
That is going to be 1 nasty unit. His shooting ignores cover and his guns are twin-linked due to the Commander (or to Guide/Prescience). He re-rolls armour penetration because his Commander has Tank Hunter. If he even looks at my guys outside of my LR, they are dead for sure. In order to survive their shooting, I need to keep my troops out of his LOS.
Finally, he deploys 1 unit of jetbikes in the middle terrain and out of LOS.
Spiders are deepstriking. Kroots and war walkers outflanking. 3 jetbikes will be coming in from his board edge.
My opponent then tries to Seize but fails. Darn it....I was hoping that he would pass.
Achilles and Prometheus move 12" The other 2 LR's only 6". Blackheart actually fails to cast Stormcaller.
Prometheus searchlights his unit. I fire everything and the kitchen sink at his reapers but his saves are red hot. Eldau only loses 1 reaper when all is said and done.
Eldau 1
Spoiler:
Eldau movement. Oh, they moved? Farseer and spiritseer casts their psychic powers (they would do this every turn). Now I am looking at reapers with 2+ cover due to Conceal and all their shooting is essentially twin-linked.
Wowsers...what the hell just happened?!?
Reapers fire at Achilles and glances it to death thanks to Tank Hunters. First Blood to Jason.
Riptide nova-charges and immobilizes my Helios!
It feels like I just got socked in the guts....
Space Wolves 2
Spoiler:
Prometheus zooms 12" forwards. Larry moves 6". Blackheart's unit goes to hide behind the wreck, making sure to stay within 6" of both LR's so that they can benefit from Stormcaller.
Despite 2+ cover (reduced to 3+ against Prometheus), I manage to kill 4 reapers this turn. Unit passes morale however.
Eldau 2
Spoiler:
Spiders come in.
Actually, almost his entire army comes in all at once. Walkers and kroots come in on my side.
Guess what? He kills another land raider, Prometheus this time and with the Nightwing.
Torrent by his reapers and spiders then wipes out Loki and his unit.
Mofo! Riptide nova-charges and immobilizes my last raider, Larry!!!
So in 2 turns of shooting, he has neutralized all 4 of my raiders with hardly any AT. That has got to be one of the greatest displays of shooting I have ever seen or experienced!
Honestly, I am in shock.
Spiders then jump out of LOS in the assault phase.
Space Wolves 3
Spoiler:
Ah hell....if I am going down, I'm going to go down swinging. Never say never.
I disembark my guys. They're not going to do me much good cooped up in those deathtraps anyways.
My opponent has some hot saves. Living Lightning, bolt guns, 1 plasma gun and all my land raider lascannons fire at his walkers. I am expecting to wipe them out. Instead, I only kill 1 and take off 1 HP from another.
Eldau 3
Spoiler:
Eldau movement. It is just a matter of whether I can survive now.
Warp spiders teleport an astounding 15" to go after my Warlord's unit.
Shooting wipes out all the grey hunters from my Warlord Blackheart's unit. War walkers shoot down 2 hunters from my other unit (Goldmoon's).
Spiders then try to get away.
Space Wolves 4
Spoiler:
I have no hope of winning. I am just trying to fight for a little respectability. Hunters go after the kroots. My other hunters go after my Emperor's Will objective. BTW, the Nightwing is still there. We just removed it so that I can move my guys around without risk to the model itself.
Blackheart makes it into 1 of the immobilized LR's to preserve my Warlord.
1 walker with 1HP remains after my shooting. However, I lose my plasma-gunner to Gets Hot!.
Helios whirlwind launcher kills 4 kroots. Doh! I only needed to kill 1 more to force morale.
Eldau 4
Spoiler:
This will be the last turn due to time.
Jetbikes come in and they are turbo-boost to all the objectives.
Spiders move and shooting kills all but Goldmoon.
He also wipes out my other unit of grey hunters near my Emperor's Will objective.
So Jason has got all 3 Crusade objectives.
He's also got his Emperor's Will objective as well as First Blood (Achilles).
I can't even get a single point. Shut-out for the wolves as Eldau wins it 8-0.
Jim's force had me worried, I felt pretty confident that I could take out two LR by the games end, but I really needed to stall him on the advance. I won the roll off and forced him to go first so that he would be forced to deploy centrally or to one flank, then I tried to steal the initiative so that I could hopefully drop the ION ordinance down on his huddled LRs, (even though it was in my advantage to take the last turn due to objectives), although I managed to do the same thing essentially by going second. The way his LRs ended up behind the wreck hampered LOS from some of his guns to my Fire Base, allowing me to continue firing (seeing the top of his raiders), but minimized what was shot back in the same direction.
I had to stall him away from my lines because my force was designed to crumble to HTH (so that targets could be immediately shot at on my turn), but if he got too close with the protection of the LRs with his Puppies, or if I lasted through his turn in HTH he would quickly kill off my armor platted goldfish and faerie vulcans on my turn and be lined up for the next kill. It worked out for the best when the Nightwing came in and shot up the black LR on turn two (destroying it) and the Riptide immobilized the last one, behind his lead tank which was now a wreck. That securely forced him away from my lines with no chance of making it across that gap unscathed.
For the Tournament they were easily my MVP each and every game, wiping out pretty much whatever they were pointed at.
Either 9 Str8 TL/TankHunters or 18 Str5AP3 TLMEQ death
each time ignoring cover, it was gross. The unit is expensive (342 pts) plus the commander for another 137, then add the Spirit Seer for 70 more, and BAM you are sitting on a 500+ unit, but wow what a tough nut to crack it is.
Put it on your back line and then only their heavy weapons are going to threaten it and even then you are probably getting a 2+ save, and if your farseer gets fortune, they are never going to kill it.
My first two opponents were the BAO winner in the first game with the Slanneshi Rush army, and the second game was against the IG dual blob with 4 flyers.
Each one of my opponents were outstanding players, with great tactics and tough armies. Top that off with fun to play against, and the wins really became secondary for me in terms of what I walked away with after that tournament.
Thanks Jy2 for a great report/game and if you two are reading, Liz and Bill for those first games as well.
POST-GAME/TOURNAMENT THOUGHTS: (by jy2)
Spoiler:
This just goes to show that there are no auto-wins in 40K. No matter how bad or good a matchup is, there is always a fighting chance for the underdog. This game was just one of those games were everything went right for one army and nothing went right for the other army. Not much you can do about that but to shrug it off and move on. In this game, Jason's shooting was just golden. Almost anything he shot at, he incapacited. That was just some unbelievably efficient shooting. Congrats to a good game for my opponent. I shall have vengeance another day.
Kevin's Chaos ended up going against Adam's Triptide Tau and that was another dominating game similar to mine. In that game, it seemed like everything went right for Kevin. He got the right powers (Invisibility, Puppet Master) and he dominated. He cast Puppet Master on a riptide and used him to wipe out the Ethereal's unit. He cast Invisibility on his heldrake and/or his seekers for 2+ cover. Basically, he nearly tabled Tau for max points.
Kevin ended up 1st going 3-0 with a maximum possible 30-pts. Jason and his Eldau was 2nd also going 3-0 but with less battle points. 3rd was William (my Game #2 opponent) and his NecroKnights. Although he lost to me, the 2-pts he got in his lost edged him over me and my 0-pt loss. I ended up 4th out of 16. Still top 25% but still disappointing to me. Honestly, after looking at the field of armies, I was expecting to take it all. But alas, it just wasn't meant to be, at least not that day.
Well, hoped you guys enjoy my reports. You guys are going to be in for a treat. Next tournament coming up, the ATC in August. See you then.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/08 17:18:39
That Eldar Army is very well painted. If I had to make a prediction, pretending I didn't already know how it ended, I would say that eldar just cannot take out the land raiders fast enough to win this game.
Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General
2013/07/07 04:32:26
Subject: 1750 Game Kastle RTT Tournament, June 30 (Game #1 on p.3, Game #2 p.4)
I'm not too concerned about his list. His only AT is the Nightwing and the Riptide (with only 1 S9 blast). Otherwise, the most he can do is to try to glance my tanks to death. What I am concerned about, however, are his jetbikes. Basically, he can just zip to objectives to claim/contest at will on Turn 5 and there really isn't too much I can do about it besides to hope the game doesn't end. Killing them will be a tall order since he will most likely reserve them and hide them behind LOS-blocking terrain. Even though I don't foresee him really doing much to my army, if he plays his cards right, Jason just may steal this one. My advantage is my resiliency. His is his mobility....and the fact that he is going 2nd in a multiple-objectives game.
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. My prediction is you will win unless he gets really lucky versus your land raiders.
9 S8 shots that are twin-linked (Guide), have Tank Hunter and ignore cover can take out Land Raiders decently well, it just comes down to how many 6s he rolls so perhaps the Reapers can pull it out for him unless Jy2 is smart and kills the reapers dead. I think taking Iridium Armor on the Commander to tank shots for the Reapers would have been a good investment, though. Will be interesting to see how things turn out!
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
Yea but he needs to keep the DR alive. They can move and shoot now so they should get the first strike but that Prometheus and Achilles should be target number one and two.
hippesthippo wrote: If only Codex Land Raiders had that kind of variety/firepower... Oh, how I wish CSM Raiders had PotMS. :(
Let this be a lesson; don't leave home without some melta.
Yeah, without PotMS and without Forgeworld raiders, it is harder to build a balanced army with LR-spam. Blood Angels are probably the only army that can do it well with just regular codex LR's.
hippesthippo wrote: .. Allow me to clarify. Mech isn't dead. You need something in your army that can deal with high AV effectively. Melta, and melta-equivalents (haywire), are an example.
MC Smash, Railguns, Zoanthropes, etc. If you want to build a balanced list, you must have a plan in place for dealing with AV14. Otherwise, you risk losing to a relatively crummy spoiler army simply because you traded out all your melta for plasma.
BTW, if you can kill 3/4 Land Raiders, you'll prolly win.. So I'm not too worried about the single melta-proof Raider.
Jim took a smart gamble and it paid off. Prolly won't work again at the same store
Yeah, there's a lot of ways to deal with LR's. It's just that the current meta is maybe 1 LR at most. Most players have reduced their anti-heavy armor capabilities due to the shift in the meta to more foot-based armies as well as flyers and that was what I was anticipating. And it almost worked too.
mortetvie wrote: 9 S8 shots that are twin-linked (Guide), have Tank Hunter and ignore cover can take out Land Raiders decently well, it just comes down to how many 6s he rolls so perhaps the Reapers can pull it out for him unless Jy2 is smart and kills the reapers dead. I think taking Iridium Armor on the Commander to tank shots for the Reapers would have been a good investment, though. Will be interesting to see how things turn out!
It turned out to be better than I thought but honestly, his dice was way above average. Even with re-rolls to hit and on the armor pen, he would average at most 2 glances.
With 2+ cover due to Conceal, you really don't need your commander tanking shots even though he could do it.
Dozer Blades wrote: Death Reapers are obviously the first and foremost target for jy2.
Yeah. Too bad I couldn't do too much against them even with my alpha strike before they had time to cast their psychic powers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/07 18:01:13
Yea that was one of those games where it was basically over turn 1. One wrecked LR plus another behind it immoblized it, yea that hurt. Eldar Turn 2 just sealed the deal.
I have had a lot of luck myself with the tau command with the chip glancing vehicles to death. I played against an armored list for Dark angels once, he had 2 LRs and 3 vehicles with armor 13 and killed all the AV 13 with glancing hits from tank hunting missile pods.
2013/07/07 18:26:38
Subject: 1750 Game Kastle RTT Tournament, June 30 (Game #1 on p.3, Game #2 & #3 on p.4)
Lol. I'm sure a lot of eldar players are pleased with the results.
As well as people who hate playing against LR's.
I mean the tourny as a whole. Your list probably got everyone by surprise, and I'm sure everyone of your opponents crapped themselves when they saw it. You played well with a gimmicky list, and I enjoyed reading the whole thing. To add sugar to it, the Eldar won!
Keep it up JY, I eagerly await more.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/07/07 18:57:45
Subject: 1750 Game Kastle RTT Tournament, June 30 (Game #1 on p.3, Game #2 & #3 on p.4)
I might be wrong, but I think the Reapers average 3 hull points a turn against armor 14. 9 shots twin-linked and rerolling armor pens. That would mean 4 sixes would just be a little above average, but not much.
When the riptide nova charges the ion gun, doesn't it become str 9 and ordnance? That would give it two rolls for armor pen and take the highest. Not the worst thing to use against Land Raiders.
Elite armies always suffer from dice swings and the more games you play the higher the chance you will suffer from a dice swing.
On that first turn of shooting against the Dark Reapers, did he make 5/6 saves? The dice in the picture show 5 saves out of 6 dice. If that was the case his dice would not have been hot. He beat the average by only one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/07 19:11:01
. Now, assuming Jim did not pass out from heatstroke ( it was hellishly hot in the tourney room) or blunder horribly ( very unlikely), he could grind out a win with little difficulty.
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
