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Change the sword to a scimitar.. Still recognisable and no GW can own that because they can't own "weapon through crescent moon" in regards to gaming... Many companies have and will do it successfully.

Possible that Chessex is already producing dice for them. The recent Apocalypse dice set has AdMech symbols on them.


GW may have had the legal request tied to the order. A handful of custom dice orders probably were worth far less than the GW order.

The ironic part of this is that the chessex logo is something that GW would likely sue over if they got the idea in their head.

 Aerethan wrote:
The ironic part of this is that the chessex logo is something that GW would likely sue over if they got the idea in their head.

Moorcocks chaos star?

 Aerethan wrote:
The ironic part of this is that the chessex logo is something that GW would likely sue over if they got the idea in their head.

Shhhhhhh, you can't just say stuff like that anymore, GW seem to be becoming aware of the internet.
DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THEM IDEAS?

 Aerethan wrote:
The ironic part of this is that the chessex logo is something that GW would likely sue over if they got the idea in their head.

I thought the "generic star that happens to have 8 points" was one of the things GW couldn't get prissy about after the CH business?

 kronk wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

That's the thing though, a lot of GWs "symbols" are straight up stolen from other sources and claimed as their own.

GW may very well not own those images. I doubt many/most of their claims would stand up in court. But that's irrelevant.

What is relevant is that Chessex has no intention of getting bogged down in such a case for whatever reason, for good or for ill.

This is the second instance in the past month of Chessex saying no that I've read here. This is the first.

the funny part is chessex did ouroboros dice. Not just as a custom dice either.

Yes but those are Draconis Combine symbols from the defunct (again) Battletech line. (specifically the 4 diamonds was a faction in the WizKids "clicky" version...)

weeble1000 wrote:
The purpose of copyright, as with patents, is to allow a creator to profit from a creation, after which time it becomes of use to the public.

I thought the motivation behind copyright (much like patents) is to encourage people to create "stuff" and distribute their creations (patents and copyrights covering different types of "stuff".) Copyright does allow creators to profit, and I'm sure that's quite intentional, but it's not because of some idea that creators deserve to be rewarded for their work. The profit there is to encourage people to make stuff, so that we can enjoy those creations. Trademarks are very different beasts. I'm coming at this as a lay-person with a bit of a grudge about the Mickey Mouse Protection Act.

 Lansirill wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
The purpose of copyright, as with patents, is to allow a creator to profit from a creation, after which time it becomes of use to the public.

I thought the motivation behind copyright (much like patents) is to encourage people to create "stuff" and distribute their creations (patents and copyrights covering different types of "stuff".) Copyright does allow creators to profit, and I'm sure that's quite intentional, but it's not because of some idea that creators deserve to be rewarded for their work. The profit there is to encourage people to make stuff, so that we can enjoy those creations. Trademarks are very different beasts. I'm coming at this as a lay-person with a bit of a grudge about the Mickey Mouse Protection Act.

Yea, which is why "after which time it becomes of use to the public" is the really, really important bit. Allowing one to profit is a means to the end of, as the US constitution puts it, promoting "the progress of science and the useful arts." So I absolutely agree with you that encouraging inventors and authors to make new inventions and works of art, and thus to elevate and improve society writ large, is the ultimate goal of patent and copyright law. To which end, limited protection, both in terms of scope and duration, is very important. When exclusive rights extend to far in any direction, it has the effect of restricting the progress of arts and science.

It is also important to note that trademark law is fundamentally for consumer protection.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
It is specific enough when it is a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, regardless of scale.

It's not a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, the rune itself is little more than a sword crossing a crescent moon. And if GW thinks they can trademark a 500 year old religious symbol, they're insane.

However the specific design he asked the dice people to use is one produced by gw. You seem to be suggesting that i should be able to use coca cola's logo however I want since it is just writing - after all that has been around for thousands of years!

No, I am suggesting that GW has no right to tell you you're not allowed to put a crucifix on your dice.

You are right, they dont have the right to tell you you cant put a design they dont own the ip on your dice. However they can certainly tell you to not put a design they do own on your dice and i would understand if they were not happy if you put something that is clearly meant to be one of their designs on your dice...

They don't own moons, and they don't own swords. It's a tricky number - you're completely correct in that fighting a private legal case of this kind probably isn't worth it for an individual (unless they're very very wealthy with lots of time on their hands...).

But I think they'd be hard pressed to get any sort of copyright on that symbol. It's just too generic. Either way, if you just made a slight alteration (for example having a slightly different hilt on the sword, or having it cross over in a different manner) to make it completely outside of any legal attempt to stop you using it. It wouldn't be the same symbol and that end's the matter in my mind.

This might be a silly question but could you send Chessex a pic you drew of a sword through a crescent moon and ask them to make that?
You know, just ask for the same icon but word it in a way that gives them plausible deniability if GW ask why something they made looks like a GW icon?

Plausible deniability is not, I think, what the company is concerned about.

Yeah, Chessex doesn't want to risk the money being wasted in court on anything that GW can perceive as theirs, problem is GW believe a lot of things that are free and open to everyone are theirs.

No doubt we will all be 3D printing any dice we like in a year or two.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
No doubt we will all be 3D printing any dice we like in a year or two.

Pretty much this. Given how simple dice are in design, and the fact that most people aren't worried about crazy balanced dice, I'm sure all of us will start making custom personalized dice.

I'll probably make a set just for leadership tests, where the 1 and 6 on a dice says feth, and the other die's 1 says You, but the 6 says Me.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
No doubt we will all be 3D printing any dice we like in a year or two.

Followed shortly by people printing loaded dice.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
No doubt we will all be 3D printing any dice we like in a year or two.

Yeah, I would love to face someone who has printed dice that are heavier on the "1" than the "6" faces on his "to hit and wound" dice and inverted on his "leadership" dice


Edit: Damn, should probably read all the new posts before I reply to something

A friend of mine actually did 3d print a set of dice for Pathfinder (so a d20, d12, d8, etc). He's run some tests and used them in a bunch of games and they roll pretty fair.

http://www.shapeways.com/search?q=dice

You already can...granted, the loaded dice issue exists already if a person is so inclined. 5 seconds on Google can have you rolling 6s till you are blue in the face.

The printed ones in metal roll quite well, though I havent done any in plastic...I am sure they would be suitably random too.

To the original issue, compress the sword to be a dagger (to better fit tge face of a d6) and send the image with the blade pointing up. Completely different than GWs icon. Courts have generally held that simple things like these need to be an exact copy in order to be a copy. Provided that you create the artwork yourself (or have soneone create it) it is sufficiently creative to avoid an infringement claim.

That still doesnt mean that Chessex will make the dice for you, but they are hardly the only dice company in town, especially for d6. Gamestation, Crystal Caste and Game Parts all do them readily enough. Game Parts is a commercial supplier though, so I dont know if you would be intested in the volumes they deal in. I believe Eric Harshbarger still makes custom dice too, along with a bunch of novelty dice.

 dreamakuma wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

That's the thing though, a lot of GWs "symbols" are straight up stolen from other sources and claimed as their own.

GW may very well not own those images. I doubt many/most of their claims would stand up in court. But that's irrelevant.

What is relevant is that Chessex has no intention of getting bogged down in such a case for whatever reason, for good or for ill.

This is the second instance in the past month of Chessex saying no that I've read here. This is the first.

the funny part is chessex did ouroboros dice. Not just as a custom dice either.

Spoiler:

Do they still do these? They look awesome.

I'm going to bet "no" because the Wizkids Mechwarrior Clicky game is defunct now too.


Get thou to fleabay

I wonder if the 'lesser used' icons are on their list of things to not produce that was provided to Chessex. The larger Craftworlds, for instance, I'd imagine would be there. But what about all the ones that only mentioned passingly and were never put on a model or transfer sheet?

Side note. Couldn't you just have the '6' side blanked and print your own 'copy' onto a transfer on the size you wanted...then afix it to that blank. I was under the impression if you are doing it yourself, you are allowed to copy such material for personal use. Wouldn't this suffice to comply in that regard?

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I wonder if the 'lesser used' icons are on their list of things to not produce that was provided to Chessex. The larger Craftworlds, for instance, I'd imagine would be there. But what about all the ones that only mentioned passingly and were never put on a model or transfer sheet?

Side note. Couldn't you just have the '6' side blanked and print your own 'copy' onto a transfer on the size you wanted...then afix it to that blank. I was under the impression if you are doing it yourself, you are allowed to copy such material for personal use. Wouldn't this suffice to comply in that regard?

I wouldn't be surprised if Chessex was just given a non-specific warning to stay away from GW's nebulously-defined back yard. Games Workshop's "IP" is a yard with no fence abutting a golf course and a public park. What are the boundaries? What is public, what is private, what really is owned by Games Workshop?

Games Workshop likes to keep things ambiguous because, as Mr. Kirby's recent statement makes crystal clear, Games Workshop's IP enforcement is strictly limited to "intransigent small infringers;" "individuals and small businesses who 'cease and desist' as soon as they get the letter." They cease and desist because "The scale upon which [Games Workshop does] business is the biggest defence." Games Workshop is big, and "serious about defending [its] IP" regardless of there being no "immediate threat of damage to [Games Workshop's] profits."

In other words, Games Workshop wants individuals and small businesses to know that if they don't immediately 'cease and desist' regardless of what the letter says, they'll get sued by a plaintiff with a whole lot more money. This is apparently why Games Workshop sued Chapterhouse Studios: to scare the ever-living crap out of the third party accessory industry. Note that Chapterhouse Studios is the only "intransigent small infringer" that Games Workshop has actually sued. The only other extant related example being M C A Hogarth, who was the target of a DMCA takedown, and Paulson Games who was named in the aforementioned litigation.

Now, what happened with all of those "intransigent small infringers"? Games Workshop faced a defendant whose defense operated on a scale that dwarfed Games Workshop. Not surprisingly, none of them have been "stopped" either. Paulson Games is still around, Chapterhouse Studios just raised nearly 30K with Kickstarter (compare to a 25K judgement in favor of Games Workshop), and Spots the Space Marine is still on the shelves. In fact, all three are arguably doing better post litigation. And the third party accessory market has grown exponentially since Games Workshop filed a lawsuit against Chapterhouse Studios and John Paulson.

The Chapterhouse lawsuit provides pretty clear examples of what a US jury does and does not feel is infringement when it comes to icons. So where does the industry go from here? What does Chessex, for example, do going forward? We still have only seen one lawsuit from Games Workshop, a lawsuit that still isn't over yet. In fact, Games Workshop was ordered by the Court to participate in settlement negotiations post trial and faces the risk of an appeal and an award of costs and attorneys fees to the defendant.

Does Games Workshop have the juice to file another lawsuit? Is Games Workshop willing to take the risk that, as has happened every time thus far, the defendant receives pro-bono representation? Is Games Workshop willing to risk getting involved in another years long lawsuit that will ultimately cost a healthy percentage of Games Workshop's profits and further erode its declining goodwill? Has Games Workshop's experiences with Chapterhouse Studios, Paulson Games, and Hogarth made the company disinclined to file another lawsuit?

We'll have to wait and see, but a really good question to ask is will history repeat itself, and if it does, can Games Workshop afford it? You bet your boots Games Workshop will be thinking about it the next time Kirby and Co. consider filing a lawsuit, and you can be darn sure that after reading that little diddy in the Annual Report, investors will also be taking a look at Games Workshop's contingent liabilities.

Are we seriously still beating this horse?

Yes, some of GW's trademarked logos can be interpreted as universal symbols. But if someone in the games industry uses it, GW has the right to protect its IP. If a car company decided to use a winged sword as a logo, I doubt GW would raise a fuss, as it has nothing to do with cars.

I swear I have never seen a fanbase so set on hating its own stuff...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Are we seriously still beating this horse?

Yes, some of GW's trademarked logos can be interpreted as universal symbols. But if someone in the games industry uses it, GW has the right to protect its IP. If a car company decided to use a winged sword as a logo, I doubt GW would raise a fuss, as it has nothing to do with cars.

I swear I have never seen a fanbase so set on hating its own stuff...

I think you have it backwards. I swear I have never seen a company so set on hating its own customers.

So let me get this straight... People can no longer get custom dice with their army logo on it? i really wanted red dice with the mark of khorne on them!

 The World XEater wrote:
So let me get this straight... People can no longer get custom dice with their army logo on it? i really wanted red dice with the mark of khorne on them!

You can get them, but only from GW (assuming GW makes them). Or, you could make them yourself if you had the materials to do so.

However, if a third party company sells dice with a GW copyrighted logo on them, then that company risks being sued for copyright infringement.

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