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 cincydooley wrote:
I always have to smile at the "but I have to spend $500 on an iPad to use it" comments. This is apparently a big secret, but the iPad (or any other tablet for that matter) can do a lot more than simply display ebooks.

Honestly, I rarely use our home PC anymore. When I'm home, I use one of our tablets almost exclusively for we browsing, gaming, etc.

You don't seem to understand, that not everyone is interested in a tablet, and they don't really wish to buy one so they can then buy a £25 e-book.

 Imposter101 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I always have to smile at the "but I have to spend $500 on an iPad to use it" comments. This is apparently a big secret, but the iPad (or any other tablet for that matter) can do a lot more than simply display ebooks.

Honestly, I rarely use our home PC anymore. When I'm home, I use one of our tablets almost exclusively for we browsing, gaming, etc.

You don't seem to understand, that not everyone is interested in a tablet, and they don't really wish to buy one so they can then buy a £25 e-book.

Then buy a real book.

Cincey and I rarely agree on matters GW, but to complain you have to buy something you don't want to, in order to buy something you do, when you can already buy that thing without the unnecessary purchase? Its just complaining for the sake of it.

I don't think this is trade hard back size; it is smaller, both in content as well as actual size,than the full size book.

It is listed as (a convenient) 205mm x 150mm, so if some enterprising gamer with both a measuring utensil and the full size rulebook could post the measurements we could get a comparison.

 Ahtman wrote:
I don't think this is trade hard back size; it is smaller, both in content as well as actual size,than the full size book.

It could be a midget holding the book, but it looks about trade size, so bigger than the DV softback, smaller than the Big One.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I don't think this is trade hard back size; it is smaller, both in content as well as actual size,than the full size book.

It could be a midget holding the book, but it looks about trade size, so bigger than the DV softback, smaller than the Big One.

Games Workshop wrote:
Don't let its size fool you - measuring a convenient 205mm x 150mm, this handy book contains the complete rules for Warhammer 40,000.
[/quote

Assuming a normal sized hand that is still seems slightly smaller then trade and certainly smaller than the full rulebook.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I don't think this is trade hard back size; it is smaller, both in content as well as actual size,than the full size book.

It could be a midget holding the book, but it looks about trade size, so bigger than the DV softback, smaller than the Big One.

Games Workshop wrote:
Don't let its size fool you - measuring a convenient 205mm x 150mm, this handy book contains the complete rules for Warhammer 40,000.

Thanks Z, why use a picture when you can use MASSIVE ORANGE CHARACTERS

I don't see the point in raging about it. They have a mini version in DV available on EBAY for around £15/20. Its another pretty looking book which will appeal to a fairly small audience, but if you had no intention of buying a smaller rulebook before the release, why get enraged by one when it is?

 azreal13 wrote:


Thanks Z, why use a picture when you can use MASSIVE ORANGE CHARACTERS

Because tiny green characters are just so damn hard to read...

stargasm wrote:I don't see the point in raging about it. They have a mini version in DV available on EBAY for around £15/20. Its another pretty looking book which will appeal to a fairly small audience, but if you had no intention of buying a smaller rulebook before the release, why get enraged by one when it is?

God forbid people discuss something on a discussion board. God forbid we be critical of something without it being taken as raging.

azreal13 wrote:Thanks Z, why use a picture when you can use MASSIVE ORANGE CHARACTERS

Perhaps my mistake was not posting the measurements in MASSIVE ORANGE.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Why do people need a portable version of the rules anyway? Once you learn the rules you only need a crib sheet of tables and basic reminders, which I assume they still supply.

You own codex, I can see the point in keeping that with you, but the main rules can be left behind.

For me as someone who just doesn't always remember rules the idea of a smaller book es very convinient, as previously mentioned however, the DV book suits me fine.

i don't know why people expect gw to compete with resale on ebay. They sell the starter set at a loss anyway so i doubt they could sell that mini rulebook for cheaper than ebay while still making money.

Not all that excited about this.

xruslanx wrote:
i don't know why people expect gw to compete with resale on ebay. They sell the starter set at a loss anyway so i doubt they could sell that mini rulebook for cheaper than ebay while still making money.

The starter set is almost definitely not sold at a loss.

Exactly how much do you think a few sprues of plastic and a book cost to manufacture?!!

Im looking at this as they are selling this book for 50$ USD and it has 168 pages. The main book is 75$ USD and has 452 pages. Quite a difference for 15$.

 Ahtman wrote:

stargasm wrote:I don't see the point in raging about it. They have a mini version in DV available on EBAY for around £15/20. Its another pretty looking book which will appeal to a fairly small audience, but if you had no intention of buying a smaller rulebook before the release, why get enraged by one when it is?

God forbid people discuss something on a discussion board. God forbid we be critical of something without it being taken as raging.

i just get the impression some people take GW's decisions (which, i do understand aren't always that great) a bit too much to heart. I just don't see the point in having a grumble about something you had no interest in purchasing in the first place. With GWs method of releasing things out the blue (unless they are leaked) it isn't like they had built up any expectation of the product either.

I understand more when it comes to miniatures, since the aesthetic of the model range as a whole is what is so attractive about this hobby in the first place, but getting all up in arms over a gaming aid that you probably never wanted doesn't seam worth the effort. A bit like having a grumble about people having a grumble... and of course the grumble your having about me having a grumble about everyone having a grumble...

 stargasm wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

stargasm wrote:I don't see the point in raging about it. They have a mini version in DV available on EBAY for around £15/20. Its another pretty looking book which will appeal to a fairly small audience, but if you had no intention of buying a smaller rulebook before the release, why get enraged by one when it is?

God forbid people discuss something on a discussion board. God forbid we be critical of something without it being taken as raging.

i just get the impression some people take GW's decisions (which, i do understand aren't always that great) a bit too much to heart. I just don't see the point in having a grumble about something you had no interest in purchasing in the first place. With GWs method of releasing things out the blue (unless they are leaked) it isn't like they had built up any expectation of the product either.

I understand more when it comes to miniatures, since the aesthetic of the model range as a whole is what is so attractive about this hobby in the first place, but getting all up in arms over a gaming aid that you probably never wanted doesn't seam worth the effort. A bit like having a grumble about people having a grumble... and of course the grumble your having about me having a grumble about everyone having a grumble...

Without criticism (or 'grumbling' as you put it) something cannot improve. While it can be said that not everyone can be pleased, people are allowed to be openly critical of something.

 azreal13 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
i don't know why people expect gw to compete with resale on ebay. They sell the starter set at a loss anyway so i doubt they could sell that mini rulebook for cheaper than ebay while still making money.

The starter set is almost definitely not sold at a loss.

Exactly how much do you think a few sprues of plastic and a book cost to manufacture?!!

well given that gw's overall profit margin is around 17%, i dont see how the box set, that costs around half of its constituant parts, could be possible.

I don't know how much a few sprues of plastic costs to manufacture, nor do i know how much it costs to have it boxed (the boxes will have to be manufactured, printed and shipped to nottingham remember), pay the packing operatives wage, pay their national insurance contributions and pensions, pay their superviser, pay the guy who distrobutes the packaging, pay *his* ni and pension, pay their supervisors, pay the despatch operative who picks the box up, pay for his pallet truck, pay for the scanner and computer to log the damn thing, pay the lorry driver to pick it up, pay to keep the lights on, pay the cleaner to clean the staff toilets, pay the planners who organise all this, pay the fork lift driver, pay the goods in operatives to unload the plastics and packaging.

Then of course you have to pay for the shops - have to pay for the lights, the heating, the gas, have to pay the employees salary, national insurance and pensions, have to pay for the shiny graphics to outfit the shop (and pay someone to organise the logistics of said graphics), have to pay the delivery guy to deliver the stuff, have to pay the guy who distrobutes stock accross stores...then of course you have to do this all over the world.

But hey, this is the internet. You're right, gw kits only cost a few pence to produce! Shame on them, they should be giving this stuff away, right?

By the time I actually arrange to play a game its on the next edition

I do like kewl books but I prefer warmachine layouts design and artwork etc. GW layout is so damn boring to bowse...

Last rules I got was a ganesha pdf for peanuts, quite happy with what I got there... amateur artwork and super fun rules! RULEbook ftw!

GW does make my decisions easier as a wargammer.

That is just bs glad ı have starter set one.

xruslanx wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
i don't know why people expect gw to compete with resale on ebay. They sell the starter set at a loss anyway so i doubt they could sell that mini rulebook for cheaper than ebay while still making money.

The starter set is almost definitely not sold at a loss.

Exactly how much do you think a few sprues of plastic and a book cost to manufacture?!!

well given that gw's overall profit margin is around 17%, i dont see how the box set, that costs around half of its constituant parts, could be possible.

I don't know how much a few sprues of plastic costs to manufacture, nor do i know how much it costs to have it boxed (the boxes will have to be manufactured, printed and shipped to nottingham remember), pay the packing operatives wage, pay their national insurance contributions and pensions, pay their superviser, pay the guy who distrobutes the packaging, pay *his* ni and pension, pay their supervisors, pay the despatch operative who picks the box up, pay for his pallet truck, pay for the scanner and computer to log the damn thing, pay the lorry driver to pick it up, pay to keep the lights on, pay the cleaner to clean the staff toilets, pay the planners who organise all this, pay the fork lift driver, pay the goods in operatives to unload the plastics and packaging.

Then of course you have to pay for the shops - have to pay for the lights, the heating, the gas, have to pay the employees salary, national insurance and pensions, have to pay for the shiny graphics to outfit the shop (and pay someone to organise the logistics of said graphics), have to pay the delivery guy to deliver the stuff, have to pay the guy who distrobutes stock accross stores...then of course you have to do this all over the world.

But hey, this is the internet. You're right, gw kits only cost a few pence to produce! Shame on them, they should be giving this stuff away, right?

Ah, bless you.

So, if their profit margin at RRP is 17%, how on earth do they sell to third party retailers at 40% off and still make a profit?

You need to learn the difference between net and gross.

 Imposter101 wrote:

Well, you can buy the Dark Vengeance rule book from eBay for (generally) under £15. This is double that price. It's also only £10 under the BRB which has double the pages and is of the same standard and quality.

It's £15 less...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
And this, to me, says allot about what people want and why GW ignore them. The book seems a reasonable price to me for what it is. A high quality hard back book in trade hard back size. A similar size novel on low quality paper is £20-£25. This is on high quality gloss paper with high quality print. £30 seems like the correct price for what it is.

Wether it is the correct format is another matter. For me it is. I like hard back books, but then I can see why people were wanting soft back.

Find me a regular 168 page hardback novel on sale for £20-25.

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/catherynne+m-+valente/yume+no+hon/4901120/

Very few novels at that size, but length has little effect on price of hard back novels. Most are 300-600 pages and in the same £20-£25 price range.

Frankly the problem is amazon have devalued books.

 NAVARRO wrote:
By the time I actually arrange to play a game its on the next edition

I do like kewl books but I prefer warmachine layouts design and artwork etc. GW layout is so damn boring to bowse....

To give GW credit where credit is due, their rulebook layout is better than PP's in one respect. They put the rules at the front. PP's page numbers in the big rulebook don't matchup with the small one as they put he fluff at the front (which is cut out in both company's small books).

Anyways....
£30 for a diddy rulebook that is like all of GW's recent books is unnecessarily made only in hardback.
(to continue the picture theme...)

 azreal13 wrote:


So, if their profit margin at RRP is 17%, how on earth do they sell to third party retailers at 40% off and still make a profit?

You need to learn the difference between net and gross.

And you need to realise there is more to the cost of a product than the raw materials, or even base manufacturing costs... But that's beside the point.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
By the time I actually arrange to play a game its on the next edition

I do like kewl books but I prefer warmachine layouts design and artwork etc. GW layout is so damn boring to bowse....

To give GW credit where credit is due, their rulebook layout is better than PP's in one respect. They put the rules at the front. PP's page numbers in the big rulebook don't matchup with the small one as they put he fluff at the front (which is cut out in both company's small books).

True that.

Although so much more eyecandy.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


So, if their profit margin at RRP is 17%, how on earth do they sell to third party retailers at 40% off and still make a profit?

You need to learn the difference between net and gross.

And you need to realise there is more to the cost of a product than the raw materials, or even base manufacturing costs... But that's beside the point.

No, I really don't.

17% is (I assume, if he didn't pluck a number out of thin air) their net profit. The gross profit is, at the very least, in excess of 40%, I would speculate nearer 70% on most kits. So the actual cost of the kit, assuming I'm in the ball park, is 30% of the net sale price (before VAT in the UK)

So, based on some quick and dirty maths, a copy of DV costs GW ~£15. TBH, that smells a little on the high side, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Other costs, such as wages and rent, aren't included in the cost of manufacture, they are the cost of doing business, and come out of your gross margin.

As GW produce a lot of their own stuff as well as retailing it, I'm sure there is further accountancy shenanigans that ensures costs are located wherever they will do the least damage to the bottom line.

The fact remains, Dark Vengeance is not a loss leader, unless GW have let their production costs spiral ludicrously out of control.

 azreal13 wrote:


No, I really don't.

17% is (I assume, if he didn't pluck a number out of thin air) their net profit. The gross profit is, at the very least, in excess of 40%, I would speculate nearer 70% on most kits. So the actual cost of the kit, assuming I'm in the ball park, is 30% of the net sale price (before VAT in the UK)

So, based on some quick and dirty maths, a copy of DV costs GW ~£15. TBH, that smells a little on the high side, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Other costs, such as wages and rent, aren't included in the cost of manufacture, they are the cost of doing business, and come out of your gross margin.

As GW produce a lot of their own stuff as well as retailing it, I'm sure there is further accountancy shenanigans that ensures costs are located wherever they will do the least damage to the bottom line.

The fact remains, Dark Vengeance is not a loss leader, unless GW have let their production costs spiral ludicrously out of control.

Yes you do, as you seem to think gross proffit has any connection to sale cost. It probably isn't sold at a loss, but the cost of making the product is not the total cost. The cost of actualy making the product has no conection to the selling price. Ask any jewellery shop. They have about 1000% mark up.

xruslanx wrote:

The starter set is almost definitely not sold at a loss.

Exactly how much do you think a few sprues of plastic and a book cost to manufacture?!!

That is what I was commenting on. Just because you make a proffit on the cost of makeing a product dose not mean it is not sold at a loss...

I'm sorry, I hold business qualifications, worked at management level in a large company and run my own company, but I still can't see the point you're trying to make.

Business will generally work to a fixed gross margin, yes, in some industries that runs into 000s of %, but gross margins are generally consistent within an industry sector, give or take.

I agree with that, but can't see your argument?

EDIT

Just saw your second successive post .

With all due respect, we appear to be working on different levels here, so I'm just going to end this before I have to take it massively off topic to explain what I'm talking about.

You know, maybe you don't like the price. Maybe you don't like the format. But neither of those is the most curious to me. To me it's the timing.

I mean, this thing is coming out a looooong time after 6th Ed launched. Who is the target market for this? I mean, it can't be new players, as their target product is DV. So who is it?

 cincydooley wrote:
You know, maybe you don't like the price. Maybe you don't like the format. But neither of those is the most curious to me. To me it's the timing.

I mean, this thing is coming out a looooong time after 6th Ed launched. Who is the target market for this? I mean, it can't be new players, as their target product is DV. So who is it?

Hmmm, I don't see posts from cincy for several days, suddenly start seeing posts again. Posts I agree with...

Who are you, and what have you done with cincy?