Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

2nd edition Tyranids. Pure CC. Pure death.

lol a pure CC army would get completely tabled in this edition. Flamers would drop swarms in a heartbeat if they got too close and any good ranged weapon (Scatter Laser) is going to make their numbers dwindle (especially with the new bladestorm rule for shuriken weapons)

As someone who happens to typically play the fluffier army, i can feel that pain of showing up to a tournament and realizing that my fluffy (hey, i always bring rough riders and penal legion...) mixed IG army really has no strategic ability to really crack the mobile gun platform transports of everyone elses army...

That being said, and knowing your aversion to going with the flow of a generic tournament army what has OCCASIONALLY worked for me is the following:

"Pound the Ground" Two mantacore's for turn 1 Str 10 ordinance. Lay down a few template and reliably pen most anything short of a LR. And even those you have a 2/3 chance of penning. Having these usually also discourages "clumping" of vehicles to prevent you from getting multiple in one barrage. This spreads the foe out a bit. (I have found that two medussa sometimes work just as well, the AP2 making for a better explosion, and being more useful against all the things usually not in vehicles (3+/2+ saves/deep strikers)
I like to follow this combo up with a Colossus or two. (or a couple griffons) To target the juicy insides. Colossus ignoring cover and being AP3 makes it great at targetting those MEQ/TEQ that just came out of the transport your hit.
Additionally I try to work in an Alpha Striking unit. (Allied SM detachement drop pods)
I send these boys in towards one flank, while pounding the middle or other side with the heavy ordinance. My hope being that the opponent will lose a turn or two dealing with the cracked transports and MEQ threat, losing mobility and allowing the rest of my army to close with very little harassment.

I recently posted the question of best drop pod distraction unit, so far it looks like SW may provide the cheapest answer for marine distractions.

For the definition of mech gunlines, I've been giving examples. Guard leafblower. Eldar serpent spam. GK ranged killing power (psyflemen, coteaz with a bunch of plasma cannons, psyker henchmen, etc.) combined with henchmen in chimeras. Razorspam, especially with fast BA preds. Necron ark spam or an ork battlewagon+lootas list. Most armies have some way of creating the kind of list I'm talking about.

I never said you didn't define what gunlines were, I said that your definition was overly broad. For instance, on what planet does an Eldar serpent spam count as a gunline? Serpents are as fast as it gets without being a flyer, able to move 12" and fire two weapons to full effect or 30" flat-out. Speed is one of their primary attributes and under most circumstances they will not be sitting still, but pushing along your flanks, closing in on vulnerable units to unload their cargo, or even flying behind your lines. None of these behaviors are characteristic of a gunline. If you find they are just sitting in place, consider what other posters have suggested: you might simply be playing in a manner that makes gunlines particularly effective. Why else would your opponent be sitting still with them and not leveraging one of the serpent's greatest strengths (moving serpents 1" for the jink save is not proper use of their mobility)?

Same goes for some of the other builds you have mentioned: BA armor is all fast, their vehicle should be constantly moving around under normal circumstances, if they are not it is likely something you are doing wrong on your end. Remember in a game of tactics like 40k you want to be constantly forcing your opponent to react to your moves. If your opponent is so comfortable fighting your forces he is not even is not even having to significantly re-position fast units over the course of most of the battle, you may need reconsider your tactics or force composition.

Phanixis wrote:
For instance, on what planet does an Eldar serpent spam count as a gunline?

Ailaros seems to define "gunline" as "any army that doesn't immediately move in close so that I can have all of the benefits of close-range shooting and assault without actually having to figure out how to get there". So serpent spam is a gunline because it can shoot you and move away out of range so you can't catch it easily. Any attempt to dispute this, such as pointing out that mobility can be used to aggressively attack weak points, will be rejected with claims about "playing on easy mode" or "TFG always moves backwards" or whatever*.

Like his definitions for WAAC ("any army I have trouble beating") and TFG ("anyone who has fun doing something I don't enjoy")** this definition has nothing to do with the one everyone else uses. It's just the price you have to pay to participate in an Ailaros thread, you have to accept that words will constantly have new meanings.



*For example, when Ailaros was playing foot lists and I was advocating mech vets taking lots of Chimeras was a TFG gunline, no matter how many times I pointed out that melta/plasma vets can use their Chimeras to move up and kill stuff at close range. Then suddenly once Ailaros got some Chimeras taking vets and moving up to melta/plasma stuff off the table became the best way of playing IG.

**Or anyone who uses JSJ. My favorite Ailaros thread was when he claimed that Tau players who JSJ are all sociopaths because pure foot assault armies have trouble catching them. And this was back when Tau still had their old codex!

There has been a complaint about some of the responses in this thread. I'm not going to read the whole thread and try to figure out who is right or wrong.

Everyone please just remember that on DakkaDakka you need to engage with the other guy's argument by making countervailing points.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Talore wrote:
As far as competitive play goes, I also find it not as interesting, but my local playgroup doesn't have many issues with diversity of lists. And yes, fielding a hyper-competitive list will allow you to win more, and is ''easy-mode" against someone who doesn't have a competitive list.

However, pretending that the game is just based on luck once you've got two hyper-competitive lists? That just isn't reflected in reality. The better player is going to win far more often than the inferior player. If this weren't the case, we wouldn't see successful players in tournament play be consistently successful. Anyone can bring tau/tau or taudar to the table, but only the best players are going to be consistently successful. It does not devolve into yahtzee just because you've got two top-tier lists.

Oh yea? Try checking tourney attendance then looking at lists. The same players attend all the same tournaments and are usually thew ones with the easy mode lists. Thats more reason why they are always winning then not. It doesn't help that by far more often then not the gamers who try out a tournament like adepticon for the first time with a "fun list" usually never repeat attend because of the idiotic builds that arrive. Furthermore most taented painters like to hobby a variety of models, so a lot of these "competitive" format tournies have rubbish looking armies in attendance. I'd say 90% or more from my own experience. Next add horrid terrain more often then not, and yea, the same types of individuals generally all attend the same tournies.

Here's an example, Da boys GT is a NY based GT that has composition and sportmanship oh and heaven forbid painting scores, yet none of the big names bother attend.... I wonder why that is? That argument is seriously tired man.Is there strategy? yes to a small degree, the main issue is that when these net lists that are spam hammy and fallow codex creep arrise, the game very much does just become a matter of who has the better bell curve in their list.

Emphasized statement is largely untrue. Justin Cook (NOVA winner) has attended DaBoyz several years. Greg Sparks (current Captain of ETC Team America) has attended 6 or more years. Nick Rose (darkwynn), Goatboy, Man Boy Genius (all ATC champs) have attended DaBoyz over the years. Jon Willingham, Mike M., Wyatt T, and others whose names escape me from current and previous ETC teams have attended several times.

As much as people love to hate comp, feedback at DaBoyz regularly features people thanking the TO's for providing a tournament where spamming and netlisting have been penalized or banned depending on how the comp scoring is factored each year. There are those who genuinely enjoy and are grateful for not having to face <this unit> x6 or <that unit> x3. Despite these things, the "big names" still do attend and still place at the top of the pack.

On topic (mostly): While I agree ailaros' lists and approaches are unconventional, they highlight the major imbalances in 40k. Those being that not every 1850pt (or whatever point) army is created equal. If you want to create an army that's 80% assault units featuring KP denial to draw on objectives and win on first blood, that's not a balanced army. Playing an unbalanced army will give you bad matchups that you may not be able to overcome.

The problem is rarely the army you're playing against, rather your own choices in list building. If you want to create a gimmick list, you have to accept the bad matches. If you want to create a balanced list approaching TAC, you have to accept the fact that your "balance" will give you a chance at all armies, but the games will be hard fought as you'll have very few "auto-wins". If you want to spam serpents or chimeras or whatever, you have to accept the potential for hard counters or an entirely nerfed army when new editions or codexes release.

The current meta under the influence of rapid fire codex and supplement releases is fluid. The meta from Adepticon to WGC to NOVA changed rapidly over just a few months, and will continue especially with 2 big "horde" releases expected in the next 6 months between Nids and Orks. We all know this hobby demands massive financial investment. If you want to play competitively a game that isn't designed for competitive tournaments, you need to be open and willing to constant reinvestment.

No offense but that's hardly the type of turn out I consider a shark tank. For my purposes the emphasized statement is largely true. I'm not claiming there are no good payers at da boyz, actually on the contrary given the format I'd say it takes more skill (as a whole for the entirety of the hobby) which is why comp is heavily weighted. One or two big fish there. That's internet fish btw and I largely believe these guys are just over self/cross promoting each other in many cases, and these few guys have no excuse not to take the top three seats.

Being an advocate for balance is always easier from the armchair of the best codexes. It's easy to Say "take a TAC list" when you have Tau, eldar or demons as ammunition. Try taking a TAC blood angel list, isn't easy by a long shot.

Not trying to call you out Hyv3mind as I have always enjoyed your blog and drive for the hobby and community health. But! Take your last battle report for example, your opponent had 45 lootas and 3 battle wagons yet you acted surprised when it took an average of 180 S7 shots to down your WK whom you willingly put in harms way turn 1 without initiative. Maybe thats because the WK is too durable for most armies? A whole other debate. That is the type of durability built into the recent armies that makes taking TAC lists much easier for some, and impossible for others. That ork army was the antithesis of comp btw and it still was on its heals all game. Sadly thats about as good an ork list as I have seen in a long while too.

I do agree Ailaros unnecessarily handicaps himself more often then not but to some degree hidden in his vague argument I see his point. With 2 RECENT armies using composition required lists it takes strategy to pull a win. With lists like the one I linked previously, you basically are winning the game with a couple lucky rolls and hardly any strategy. It's a know brainer winning with serpent or riptide spam.

I forgot Ben Mohlie, Alan B (pajamapants, 2012 ETC singles champion), and Alan H (blackmoor) as well over the past 2 years. If you think the entire USA ETC team from 2011 (3rd overall), current ETC players minus Tony, Alex, and Nick, and the ATC champs 2 years running minus Paul and Kenny are all "internet big fish" and not actually some of the best players in America, I'll agree to disagree. Andrew G. attended and won DaBoyz last year but that was without comp due to the newness of 6th.

Winning with serpent spam or riptide spam is hardly a "no-brainer". Yes, good players do well with them, but I don't think there was a single list in the top bracket of NOVA with 5+ serpents. They may be broken against some armies but the more you repeat a unit, the bigger weaknesses you create for others to exploit. Trip/quad tides are strong no doubt, but mostly because they haven't been around long enough for people to practice against or adjust their lists to counter. I give that build 6 months before they fade away just like 'Cron air and triple drakes have.

You mentioned my games but I'm not entirely sure why. I used 1 wraithknight and 2 serpents with no spam anywhere. Balanced and diverse lists are what I promote and use both for personal reasons and to fight the common belief that "spam is good". The ork list was max spam, and very unbalanced. It was an ork list without any assault units! It's the very reason he lost, because he couldn't engage my beast unit which falls apart a lot easier in melee than to shooting. If he would have had a 30 boy unit to assault/counter assault instead of max lootas, he could have met me in the middle and forced a draw, possibly even won.

Anyways, all I am trying to say is the game is unbalanced and approaching it with unbalanced lists only makes it worse for competitive players. Yes, you may get lucky with pairings and walk all over people with lists list Ailaros designs, but don't for the most part a lot of the issues people bring to the tactics forum can be solved with an open mind and willingness to redesign lists that people have become to attached to.

Not trying to sound confrontational at all, just provide feedback and thanks for the continued readership Red Corsair.

Woah, woah. This thread isn't "How can ailaros win with this strange lists?" This is "how do you defeat gunlines based on abstract principles?"

Let's not make this personal, people.

And riptide spam takes skill to use? That's a new one. Let's never use close combat, and scarcely use the movement phase, and only do damage in the shooting phase, the success or failure of which is entirely determined by die rolls. And that's before we mention that when you have a room full of people of roughly the same skill with roughly the same list strength, that skill and lists become control variables and the whole thing devolves into who is luckiest anyways.

And it still doesn't answer the question. "Gunlines are actually hard to use" doesn't say much about how to defeat them. There are principles at play here that are creating problems. "Be a better player" doesn't address any of these, nor does "Bring a better list". Especially if lists that are "better" are also gunlines.

 Ailaros wrote:
Woah, woah. This thread isn't "How can ailaros win with this strange lists?" This is "how do you defeat gunlines based on abstract principles?"

And the problem is you've generalized the problem so much that it's impossible to answer. The tactics against an Eldar serpent spam "gunline" that can reposition across the table in a single turn will be completely different from the tactics against an IG earthshaker/sabre spam list that lines up a bunch of extremely efficient "MCs" and never leaves its deployment zone.

And yes, your weird lists are relevant because you're making things even more complicated by adding a bunch of self-imposed limits and turning the question into "how can I beat "gunlines" without changing anything".

And riptide spam takes skill to use? That's a new one. Let's never use close combat, and scarcely use the movement phase, and only do damage in the shooting phase, the success or failure of which is entirely determined by die rolls. And that's before we mention that when you have a room full of people of roughly the same skill with roughly the same list strength, that skill and lists become control variables and the whole thing devolves into who is luckiest anyways.

Sigh. So if the game is all about who is luckiest then why are you asking a question about strategy? Just line up your models and roll dice and see what happens.

Especially if lists that are "better" are also gunlines.

This is only true because you've defined "gunline" so broadly that pretty much any list that doesn't declare second-turn charges with the whole army is a "gunline".

 Peregrine wrote:

Phanixis wrote:
For instance, on what planet does an Eldar serpent spam count as a gunline?

Ailaros seems to define "gunline" as "any army that doesn't immediately move in close so that I can have all of the benefits of close-range shooting and assault without actually having to figure out how to get there". So serpent spam is a gunline because it can shoot you and move away out of range so you can't catch it easily. Any attempt to dispute this, such as pointing out that mobility can be used to aggressively attack weak points, will be rejected with claims about "playing on easy mode" or "TFG always moves backwards" or whatever*.

Like his definitions for WAAC ("any army I have trouble beating") and TFG ("anyone who has fun doing something I don't enjoy")** this definition has nothing to do with the one everyone else uses. It's just the price you have to pay to participate in an Ailaros thread, you have to accept that words will constantly have new meanings.



*For example, when Ailaros was playing foot lists and I was advocating mech vets taking lots of Chimeras was a TFG gunline, no matter how many times I pointed out that melta/plasma vets can use their Chimeras to move up and kill stuff at close range. Then suddenly once Ailaros got some Chimeras taking vets and moving up to melta/plasma stuff off the table became the best way of playing IG.

**Or anyone who uses JSJ. My favorite Ailaros thread was when he claimed that Tau players who JSJ are all sociopaths because pure foot assault armies have trouble catching them. And this was back when Tau still had their old codex!

Well, I see Ailaros as a respectable member of the Dakkadakka community for the reason that he doesn't backtalk the OP in a valuable discussion in his own thread.

He also doesn't rudely interject to shut down and use language that suggests that they are unequivocally 'never in a million years' level wrong 24/7 whenever some suggests something that doesn't directly correlate with his own opinions.

Besides over simplifying the problem, the solution will depend greatly on the army you are facing and the army you are using. The most effective way to stop a gunline army would be to field your own gunline army and attempt to out shoot them. As the OP says this is not feasible or desirable, then we have to start looking at Assault Armies and the unorthodox armies. Assault Armies just don't cut it any more. They are, believe it or not, just not fast enough to get across the board to get into the assault. Combined with Interceptor and Overwatch... well, what does make it into combat won't be very effective. Drop Pods or DS'ing right in front of the enemy lines is a suicide move now that nothing can assault the turn it arrives from reserves or Deep Strikes. That means what ever army you use will have to withstand a brutal round of shooting by your opponent, then a round of Overwatch. On top of that, there is the fact that 1/2 your army must start on the board, and the rest will be coming in piece meal over four-five turns. Less if you invest in the points for helping to roll for reserves or you get lucky.

That leaves large point sink style units to somehow get across the table to assault. Something like a Land Raider with Assault Terminators... and that's a 500+ point unit. A large blob of Assault Marines, or Vets in a Stormraven or something else along those lines... but again, you have to withstand a couple turns of shooting.

That leaves the unorthodox armies... and they will still be hit and miss for effectiveness. From a Space Marine perspective, we're talking about a Drop Pod of Sternguard with all combi-flamers/melta's doing the suicide drop in front of the enemy lines to take as many out as they can so the other units in the army can rush forward and try to make it into assault. Or fielding the Air Force of as many flyers as you can, but a good gunline list is going to have Interceptor and Skyfire. I've heard of really good Daemon players making a go at it, but I really wonder if they have faced a really good player's gunline? Let's face it, it's not that hard to play a gunline list. Your biggest challenge is where to place the big guns in the deployment phase followed by target priority. It would be all to easy to fall into a sense of complacency with such an army, and the player just wouldn't have the experience to deal with such an army that forces him to move around or have to sacrifice units, or modify target priority over successive turns. After a couple games against such an opponent, I'd be confident that the gunline player would learn how to deal with such an army and come out on top.

In the end, it's tough to swallow, I know, but Sixth Edition is the Gunline/shooting edition, and the best armies will be the ones that can take full advantage of it.

I would run fliers. They can't be hit most of the time and they get to fire when they come on the board., even if your opponent gets first turn.

Wow, this thread blew up since I last checked it!!!

So what's the problem with deep striking some terminators with storm shields? Most of the time they'll survive one round of shooting and then be able to assault. I guess really the only problem is them scattering into your units, but if they're well enough placed that shouldn't be an issue. If that happens the gunline is essentially defeated either way, because you have to concentrate on the termies or your army gets tied up, or you let the rest of the army get closer and assault you like normal.

So essentially this discussion has gone everywhere but to some sort of conclusion. I believe this is due to the extreme abstracts being bandied about that are completely crazy.
Some examples are;
-That long range anti tank in a predominantly aggressive army will always be shot to death with no significant gain.
Patently false, put them on a skyshield, in a bastion, behind an ADL out beyond 42" and they will waste a crazy amount of opponent firepower. Almost all of which will be expensive high quality shots.
-DS are always unreliable in when and how they show up.
There are a whole series of abilities to ensure that your reserves arrive. If you took an ADL above you get a comms relay for 20pts and get you reserves in 8/9 times on turn 2.
-Magically transports never get immobilized and the troops in them never get pinned nor take casualties from explosions.
If you consider 8/9 unreliable how is a 58% chance to pass a Ld8 morale test a forgone conclusion.
-The same solution should apply to all mechanized lists if they can stand back and shoot in any situation. This meaning that the solution needs to deal with DE skimmer spam, waveserpent spam, IG leaf blower, 4 landraider spam, and Tau Riptide spam....
We are running the gamut of AV11, 12, 14, cover being the primary defence/numbers being the primary defence, fast skimmers to regular vehicles, and even for good measure a bunch of foot troops and 3 T6 MCs. Literally the only common thing about these lists is that they use the shooting phase and are placed on a board during warhammer 40K games. Heck even the ranges go from 24" to 90". This is why the only correct answer to this thread is play well and take a good and balanced list.
-Mechanized gunlines are the top contenders to win in this game. (this is not true as there would not be countless threads ranting about chaos daemons, an army literally incapable for playing as a proper gunline or mechanized anything)
Actual mechanized gunlines are not the win button being espoused in this thread. Tau, necrones, and chaos daemons would not do as well as they do if they were. This is even more evident if you look at the winning eldar lists that are bringing stuff like wraithscythes, wraithknights, and jetbike units which tend to take up ~700 pts in most of these lists. That is 1/3 of a 1500 point list. At what point is this a mechanized gunline? When 50% of the points are spent on tanks? When 30% of the points are spent on tanks? Is it a mechanized "gunline" if there is no line of guns?...BTW this literally makes no sense if there is not a line of guns. I have never seen a single winning DE player that forms a line with his tanks. They tend to envelope and encircle in my experience. They often tend to walk a large number of units turn 2-3.

I think if we actually want to find general solutions we should looks at the general mechanized builds that tend to form "gunlines". This would break down to; resilient relatively low number skimmer spam, flimsy but numerous skimmer spam, resilient land tanks w/ fire support, and cheap land tanks w/ fire support. If a productive discussion is to happen then the categoy "mechanized gunline" must be broken down to something more manageable and that actually has a coherent meaning as a group.

There also has to be a more realistic view on probabilities. Something that will kill it's points in transports 50% of the time over the course of the game is a decent choice and anything above that is good. If this is not the break down then transports would be worthless. This has to be supplemented with the ability to survive to continue to do so. This is why things like helldrakes and riptides are good as they can put out decent damage each turn but can survive to do so most of the game.

Melee is a valid anti tank and anti troops inside. The problem is getting there. This is where occupying the board and disrupting the opponent deployment zone comes into play.

If you bust a vehicle the unit inside does not immediately destroy you. Mechanized force still have plenty of problems with force concentration where if you attack one flank of the line the units on the other side may not even be within 24" of you and will almost assuredly not be within 12". If the tanks are bunched up then blast weapons and multi charges will wreck the whole lot. This is why a definition of how much fire support is a gunline and how melee is not automatically invalidated.

Hopefully we can remove some of vitriol from this thread and focus the discussion to make it useful.

I wouldn't say I'm necessarily making those assumptions.

The problem that's going on is that people are offering only part solutions as if they were whole ones.

So, take your deepstriking example. Yes, taking a coms relay does help get them in on time. Not perfect, of course, but better, certainly. However, now you're spending more points on those deepstrikers without adding any killing power, so it's now an even more asymmetric piece trade when the deepstrikers are killed. It doesn't do anything to fix the efficiency problem. Also, it does nothing to fix the time problem, as you still have to open up the transports before the deepstrikers can kill what's inside, and if the deepstrikers have to handle this on their own (because, for example, your anti-transport stuff has been sufficiently neutralized by your opponent's other stuff), then they're going to lose that fight.

In this case, the deepstrikers are solving one problem, but doing nothing (or exacerbating) the other two. And that's before you consider that sometimes, even with a comms relay, they still won't show up on time, and that not every army has access to scatterless deepstriking, in which case they might mishap for a delay (or worse), or be out of position (countering the concentration problem they were designed to fix in the first place). Or your opponent may have interceptor that will hurt your deepstrikers, or have good blast weapons that will force them to choose between shooting and running (or dying). Or you opponent can castle up on objectives, and deepstriking has never been good against castling, especially in this edition.

And instead of addressing this long list of both specific and abstract problems, people are merely saying "Try some deepstrikers? They worked for me once". That's just not good enough.

Also, I'd note that these kinds of lists have more in common than merely an armor value. They all have the one-two problem of needing to open transports before you can kill the guys inside. They all alpha strike. They all contain cheap, good defensive units (usually which score). They all care about terrain less, as they're more mobile, and some of them just straight fly over it (and some shoot over it with barrage weapons). They all have great force concentration, packing a lot of firepower into a small footprint. They can all reposition reasonably quickly against sudden threats, often while losing little firepower in the process.

There's a lot of things that these lists have in common. Yes, you're going to want to color things differently whether you're facing off a bunch of venom blasterborn or fewer mechvets in chimeras, but that's going to be a variation on a theme, not an entirely different solution.

I would certainly agree that some mech gunlines are also just regular gunlines. Mech gunlines may be stronger in general, but not necessarily in specific (see tau, for example), and in any case, we're talking about gunlines and mech gunlines being castor and pollux - face-beating twins among scrawny mortals.

It's interesting that you bring up that these kinds of lists aren't 100% this kind of list, and I'd certainly agree with that as well. Once you've brought something so powerful that you basically get to tell your opponent if he gets to play his army or not, you can easily splurge a few points on something else, whether fast objective takers, or whatever. Indeed, it's sometimes those few non-gunline units that can make it worse. Dismantling a GK mech gunline is one thing, but dismantling a GK mech gunline when I know that any mistakes will see a dreadknight suddenly arriving and beating up whatever I was going to use, or acting as a screener, or being a throwaway unit to attack my objectives, well, there the game just got even harder.

But in any case, even if they're not 100% pure, it's still most of their points, and it's still the core problem.

And demons do, at the moment, have a temporary solution in their screamerstar, but that's one unit in one army, played one way. And even then, it's hardly unbeatable (grimoire doesn't always work, and doesn't work on the person with it, etc.). It's a balance glitch, rather than an indicator of a broader solution. A solution that, unless we happen to be playing screamerstar demons right now, we don't have access to. Something more general, that any (or at least most) armies could build towards in a certain fashion is the kind of solution I'm looking for.

 Ailaros wrote:
The problem that's going on is that people are offering only part solutions as if they were whole ones.

No, the problem is that you're insisting on having a single strategy or unit that counters a wide variety of opposing strategies that have little in common besides being arbitrarily thrown into your "gunline" label. If that's what you're looking for, just give up now. There is no automatic counter-strategy where you take unit X and it makes all of these "gunlines" go away.

Not really. What you did here is hand wave the actual argument away and pick apart little details in a series of specifics.

An IG mech gunline will be some chimera-vets, some artillery, and some vendettas. This army responds to DS forces by shooting them and if they fail to kill it they will loose units each turn in multicharges and sweeps. The biggest secret to facing these armies is that the mechvets are not the offensive output of the army. If you can handle the fire support you will cripple their ability to engage. The mechvets are also rather slow in comparison to a bike army or fast skimmers. They can very easily be danced around as their only good weapons all want to be within 24". This means the answer is an alpha or beta strike with a small effective unit of can openers. It doesn't even matter if it is not particularity "cost effective" as you have an excellent chance to survive the return fire if you deal with the firesupport and were either long range or use those vehicle ruins as cover.

A waveserpent spam can only be pinned down by occupying the board or engaging with units approximately as maneuverable. DS units near then will get you a beta strike and if they cannot kill the DS unit they will loose a turn of shooting re-positioning. DS a unit of hammernators is meaningless against this unless you kill the skimmer or can catch the wraithknight. A good alpha strike is the best weapon but that is a bit gun line like. A beta strike can be effective here but you need to compensate for the 4+ cover save and if possible get rear armour or use HP stripping. The good news is the firepower is relatively low compared to an IG gunline and the stuff inside of the waveserpents tends to be relatively soft. They also have to get out of the serpent to do anything. The best way to kill this type of army is to just flood the mid board with bodies and drop something very scary onto flanks. The waveserpent armies also tend to be more dispersed. The absolute best way to kill a waveserpent is in close combat. Considering the range on the stuff inside a serpent this happens more than you think but you need multiple units to pin down waveserpents. The standard formation is a middle occupy unit (usually a tough 24" shooty/with some melee, ie plague marines with plasma or melta are excellent), a chaser unit (DS oblits, CD daemon prince with flickering fire, spawn w/ lord, DS legion of the dead w/ melta, etc.), and something in the rear (devastors, havocs, or even just another fast unit that could loop back). Each of these units can have other purposes and you can use a single unit to threaten multiple skimmers but as long as they all have krak grenades or can kill a waveserpent if within 12" then the skimmers no longer have a truly safe place to escape to.

I will just do those two since this will probably be largely ignored but as should be seen from this the way you deal with just those two armies is different. Landraider spam is not even threatened by any of the units mentions above and is essentially different in nearly every way as is a Tau gunline where interceptor is prevalent and the majority of the gunline is essentially static.

You have a misunderstanding of the abilities of chaos daemons armies if you think screamer star is the only viable build. The strength of the codex is grimoire, fate weaver, FMC w/ ML3, cheap troops, fast melee threats, and spammable psychic powers. Screamer star is a one trick pony and is not necessarily the best trick that can be done.

Thanks ansacs for bringing this discussion back on track!

The problem that's going on is that people are offering only part solutions...

There also has to be a more realistic view on probabilities. Something that will kill it's points in transports 50% of the time over the course of the game is a decent choice and anything above that is good. If this is not the break down then transports would be worthless.

I think ansacs makes an important point. There might not be a 100% solution, but if the table is full of "part solutions" some good things are going to happen (and you will win games). ansacs last post really paints the picture. Against two quite different "gunlines" you might have to execute two quite different game plans. As a consequence a unit that plays a key role in one game might become a supporting unit in the next. I think building armies that can be played in different modes will be the greatest challenge for me (as a gunline guard player) when I embark on my next 40k project (likely to be CSM).

It's also reasonable that with a high level of abstraction all you can get is part solutions. They are after all general and can be broken down by pointing at specifics. Still I think this discussion has room for both arguments of the type "this is a general tool" and for those along the line "this unit(s) works for me".

A word on definitions.

A lot of people seem really bent on only defining a gunline as a literal line of static long-ranged firepower. No mech, no movement, no assault, not much in the way of hard-hitting defense. The problem with this definition is that we all know how to deal with it: get close and assault. Yawn.

The other problem is that very few people do this anymore. Now the gunline has evolved to fit the definition put forward by Ailaros. Long-range firepower, but also mobility, with a good eye on point defense, and frequently (army dependent, usually) a non-trivial number of vehicles (which is usually the mobility component). Basically, gunlines have learned to cover their butts.

Now, with that understanding, yes, Wave Serpents are quite definitely gunline material. In fact, they're basically the *best* gunline material, closely followed by a myriad of Tau units.

Anyway.

Assumption: if we have a way to deal with the way-too-mobile gunlines (Eldar, DE, Tau), we have the tools to deal with the less-mobile ones (IG, Preds, etc.)
Possible issues: mobility has an opportunity cost in that the points we spend here can't be spent on firepower
Suggestion: Bikes have mobility, are relentless, can carry heavy weapons that take out transports and then can engage in assaults the same turn. Their higher T shines even more in CC where anti-tank weapons can't be pointed at them. In combination, we can compensate for our lack of firepower by taking a unit with huge amounts of firepower but have quite little mobility. Devastator squads and their ilk do that, maybe.

After this, we really have to get down to the point where we talk about point efficiency and therefore specifics. I mean, massive hordes of Imperial Guard blobs CAN still work, right? It's just harder to put down *enough* bodies to drown your opponent. Which isn't a sign that assault blobs are impossible, they're just points inefficient due to the changes in the rule set.

Ultimately, I feel like we've covered a number of possible solutions already. Mobility in our army counters mobility in theirs. Long-range firepower (especially anti-tank), can open their transports before our anti-dudes reach them, countering the turn-time issue. Saturation can basically endure their force concentration with our own and also put them on the clock to respond. The real issue is in the specifics, now. What combinations of these ideas work? What combination of units/defensive elements do the opponents actually take? How many shots actually land?

Are there any good battle reports that illustrate any of these things working or failing? If you know of any could you link them? Things the game would have to be most interesting: a "good" gunline along the lines of what Ailaros defines, a non-gunline opponent, some of indication that these strategies work or don't and why.

As a mech gunliner player who's played a *lot* against an assaulty army, I may be able to shed some light on this.

The most effective way of taking out a mech gunline is to concentrate as much force as you can on a single flank of their army. Mech gunlines rely entirely on speed and concentration to do their damage, so if you attack at the most distant part of their flank, you'll limit the effectiveness of their return firepower. Obviously there will always be a couple of nearby units that will land some blows, but as long as *your* localised force is greater than there's, you'll have the initiative. They will have to close the distance to you in order to maximise damage - thereby putting themselves right in your guys' way - or retreat to avoid your melee and in turn limit the damage they're doing to you, though of course they can never retreat faster than you advance.

How you acheive this is down entirely to your army, but it helps if you have reliable deep strikers and fast back-up from the main force.

A word on definitions.

A lot of people seem really bent on only defining a gunline as a literal line of static long-ranged firepower. No mech, no movement, no assault, not much in the way of hard-hitting defense. The problem with this definition is that we all know how to deal with it: get close and assault. Yawn.

The other problem is that very few people do this anymore. Now the gunline has evolved to fit the definition put forward by Ailaros. Long-range firepower, but also mobility, with a good eye on point defense, and frequently (army dependent, usually) a non-trivial number of vehicles (which is usually the mobility component). Basically, gunlines have learned to cover their butts.

Now, with that understanding, yes, Wave Serpents are quite definitely gunline material. In fact, they're basically the *best* gunline material, closely followed by a myriad of Tau units.

Anyway.

Assumption: if we have a way to deal with the way-too-mobile gunlines (Eldar, DE, Tau), we have the tools to deal with the less-mobile ones (IG, Preds, etc.)

Your playing awfully fast and loose with the definition all the same. Infrequent use of gunlines in the current meta does not give you or Ailaros license to outright ignore the meaning of the term. And besides, last time a checked, Tau armies composed of firewarrios, pathfinders and broadsides camping out behind an ADL were popular, and that is a right and proper gunline.

Most of us don't mind some flexibility with the use of the term. I don't mind if you refer to an IG force running artillery and heavy weapons teams that runs some mech vets for interference as a gunline, nor the aforementioned Tau army if it uses some Eldar jetbike allies for objective grabbing. But when you start referring to an army that is composed of nothing but flying tanks as gunlines and have to employ the adjective "way-too-mobile" just to force fit different armies to your twisted definition of gunlines, things start to get absurd and the term becomes meaningless. You even included Dark Eldar in your definition. If an army whose entire force vaults across the table in the space of a turn to engage you at point blank range is considered a gunline, then is there any army that can't be defined as a gunline using the increasingly distorted definition of gunline?

This whole thread would likely be a lot shorter and clearer had Ailaros not abused the definition of gunline to begin with and provided a more accurate topic title, such as "Defeating mechanized forces without long range anti-tank weapons" or something similar. Using "strict", or should I say correct, definitions facilitates communications rather than hamper them, as should be evident by the fact that a lot of the post in the first few pages of the thread are posters just attempting to clarify what Ailaros means and is looking for because of his gross misuse of the term gunline.

Right everyone seems to be taking issue to the way the term "gunline" is being used.

If we replaced it with "Obscene amounts of overwhelming ranged fire power", does that help further the discussion?

I mean that's what we are seeing at the moment, aside from daemons, Taudar really take shooting to the next level.

 Mushkilla wrote:
Right everyone seems to be taking issue to the way the term "gunline" is being used.

If we replaced it with "Obscene amounts of overwhelming ranged fire power", does that help further the discussion?

I mean that's what we are seeing at the moment, aside from daemons, Taudar really take shooting to the next level.

The way to beat that list is to find ways to mitigate their firepower. LOS blocking terrain, big beefy characters tanking shots for the squad, reserving units, etc. Basically the same way you guys did in fifth.

 ElCheezus wrote:
The problem with this definition is that we all know how to deal with it: get close and assault. Yawn.

Except that's massively oversimplifying the problem. Everyone knows that Tau die if you charge them, but getting there without being shot to death is not exactly a trivial problem.

The other problem is that very few people do this anymore. Now the gunline has evolved to fit the definition put forward by Ailaros. Long-range firepower, but also mobility, with a good eye on point defense, and frequently (army dependent, usually) a non-trivial number of vehicles (which is usually the mobility component). Basically, gunlines have learned to cover their butts.

You know what a mobile shooting army that shoots you while using its speed to stay out of range of return fire is called? A kiting army. There's no reason to misuse the term "gunline" when we already have a perfectly good name for that strategy.

And no, it isn't an evolution of the gunline strategy, it's an entirely separate strategy that has been around for a long time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mushkilla wrote:
If we replaced it with "Obscene amounts of overwhelming ranged fire power", does that help further the discussion?

Not really, because it's still too broadly defined. Against an IG gunline part of your strategy will probably involve exploiting the gunline's inability to get out of its own deployment zone, while a similar strategy is useless against an Eldar kiting list that can redeploy across the table in a single turn. If you try to come up with a single strategy to deal with lists whose only thing in common is that they aren't declaring turn-2 charges with the whole army then you're not going to get anywhere.

 Mushkilla wrote:
Right everyone seems to be taking issue to the way the term "gunline" is being used.

If we replaced it with "Obscene amounts of overwhelming ranged fire power", does that help further the discussion?

I mean that's what we are seeing at the moment, aside from daemons, Taudar really take shooting to the next level.

What is a generalized strategy for an army that shoots you using an assault army? This is the same question as how do I win all of my games? Because if you define gunline as any army that outshoots you and you want to do so with an assault army that means you want to ensure wins against any army that cannot out assault an assault based army. The question stated as such is as ridiculous as how to win every game.

Generally I like reading Ailaros' posts, this one? I'm confused.

You want to be on par with an army that utilizes the best tactics they have at their disposal (regardless of how cheesy it might be), without having to commit to the same sort of tactics?

Ok, that's...a goal, I guess. Apparently changing the definition of 'gun line' armies is another one, given the hilarious definitions in this thread.

You need to analyze each army differently, there is no 'one strategy to rule them all', that's the point of the different armies, none of them are the same. To expect one is just as silly as your definition of a gun line army, so shame on you.

To answer the question about dealing with loaded transports? I have an oddball answer. Rough Riders. Yeah, they suck hard, but I've used them with various heavy weapons to pop transports and then charge/murder the occupants. Hellhounds supporting infiltrating melta-stormtroopers, mass basilisk fire, a deathstrike or two (lol), swarm them with guardsmen and give the sergeants powerfists and melta bombs. I don't see the problem here, it's like you refuse to see any solution to the problem in favor of the 'have to join them to beat them' rant you're doing.

Meh.

So, you want an unbeatable strategy and list that doesnt use any guns? Well, that aint going to happen. Many valid suggestions have been said, but you just blow them off in a wave of generalities.

Honestly, I am suprised at the hostility of a lot of posters in this thread. I am in large part fully in support of Ailaros- on all his points.

I think its rediculous that people are calling out Ailaros based on the lists he does. I've read through some of his lists and battle reports- honestly its refreshing. He puts together well thought out lists, that run counter to the popular meta, and experiments with new ways to play the game. I practically threw up in my mouth when that poster was complaining about how they were telling Ailaros to use Mech Vets. Hes trying to explore different ways to play the game competitively, of course he is not going to listent to somebody mindlessly promoting netlists like mech vets (he is well aware of what they do, I assure you)!

Ailaros' frustration also harks back to the initial problem of this thread. How you define it or not, there is a certain list build that is plagueing competitive 40K, and its a type of build that is in many ways incredibly frustrating to play against and exceedingly boring to play with. I actually ended up shelving my Eldar in large part because all the skill involved with winning with Eldar just became shuffle shuffle turkey shoot and the army became boring to play. What it ultiamtely comes down to, is 40K is most interesting at the 0-24 inch range. In closer ranges there is a trade off between moving closer and rapid firing but risking assault, or moving back and shooting weaker at longer ranges. Close range engagements focus far more on all three phases of the game and as a result are often more enjoyable for the players. The problem with 40K now is that so many new and powerful long ranged weaposn are being introduced that they can be doubled down on. This is weakening the close range dance, and replacing it with set up on opposite sides of the board and shoot eachother game. Occassionally straffing away from deep strikers. The game is rotting. I generally like 6th edition, but the meta is aweful, and between flyer spam on one hand, and gunlines on the other, competitive 40K is the least fun it has ever been in my 5 years of playing.

So when people come into this thread and make asanine statements like, "Serpent Spam can move really fast therefore it takes skill to use and is not a gunline" is missing the point completely. Serpent Spam is a mobile long range firing base, it is not engaging in the 18 inch dance of death, its just scooting and shooting. Which coincidentally is what mech vets do (just slower).

What Ailros is going for is trying to find solutions to defeat different armies that aren't just more dull long range spam armies. Its really sillly looking at a lot of posts here- this thread is saying "I do not enjoy playing with gunlines, what are some ways I can counter gunlines whithout using one?", to which a large number of responses are in line with "noob, l2p, take better lists (implication that not taking a gunline is tantamont to handicapping yourself)" or "your definition of a gunline is wrong, no further comment"

How about instead of people arguing about the definition of a gunline, if you have a thought about how to deafeat a certain build (serpent spam for instance) post it. Also I am amazed at the spite people in this thread seem to have for innovation...