Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There have been several suggestions for how to beat specific lists from the various factions. Pod armies, bike armies, AV14 spam, good terrain, good terrain placement, the right amount of prudence, taking multiple survivable targets to over load his target priority, etc.

The problem is that every single idea has been brushed aside with nary a glance. Either the unit is examined from the worst case scenario while the enemy rolls all sixes, or the suggestion is outright ignored!

Look, GW decided to make the Wave Serpent essentially immortal for its point cost in the shooting phase. Why they did that, I have no idea. This fact will skew this discussion horribly.

THE way to deal with Wave Serpents at range is to spam S7/8 shots. This requires a "gunline" in some form to be viable, I think.

Martel732 wrote:
Look, GW decided to make the Wave Serpent essentially immortal for its point cost in the shooting phase. Why they did that, I have no idea. This fact will skew this discussion horribly.

THE way to deal with Wave Serpents at range is to spam S7/8 shots. This requires a "gunline" in some form to be viable, I think.

Indeed. Hydras will eat them alive.

akaean wrote:Honestly, I am suprised at the hostility of a lot of posters in this thread. I am in large part fully in support of Ailaros- on all his points.

I think its rediculous that people are calling out Ailaros based on the lists he does. I've read through some of his lists and battle reports- honestly its refreshing. He puts together well thought out lists, that run counter to the popular meta, and experiments with new ways to play the game. I practically threw up in my mouth when that poster was complaining about how they were telling Ailaros to use Mech Vets. Hes trying to explore different ways to play the game competitively, of course he is not going to listent to somebody mindlessly promoting netlists like mech vets (he is well aware of what they do, I assure you)!

Ailaros' frustration also harks back to the initial problem of this thread. How you define it or not, there is a certain list build that is plagueing competitive 40K, and its a type of build that is in many ways incredibly frustrating to play against and exceedingly boring to play with. I actually ended up shelving my Eldar in large part because all the skill involved with winning with Eldar just became shuffle shuffle turkey shoot and the army became boring to play. What it ultiamtely comes down to, is 40K is most interesting at the 0-24 inch range. In closer ranges there is a trade off between moving closer and rapid firing but risking assault, or moving back and shooting weaker at longer ranges. Close range engagements focus far more on all three phases of the game and as a result are often more enjoyable for the players. The problem with 40K now is that so many new and powerful long ranged weaposn are being introduced that they can be doubled down on. This is weakening the close range dance, and replacing it with set up on opposite sides of the board and shoot eachother game. Occassionally straffing away from deep strikers. The game is rotting. I generally like 6th edition, but the meta is aweful, and between flyer spam on one hand, and gunlines on the other, competitive 40K is the least fun it has ever been in my 5 years of playing.

So when people come into this thread and make asanine statements like, "Serpent Spam can move really fast therefore it takes skill to use and is not a gunline" is missing the point completely. Serpent Spam is a mobile long range firing base, it is not engaging in the 18 inch dance of death, its just scooting and shooting. Which coincidentally is what mech vets do (just slower).

What Ailros is going for is trying to find solutions to defeat different armies that aren't just more dull long range spam armies. Its really sillly looking at a lot of posts here- this thread is saying "I do not enjoy playing with gunlines, what are some ways I can counter gunlines whithout using one?", to which a large number of responses are in line with "noob, l2p, take better lists (implication that not taking a gunline is tantamont to handicapping yourself)" or "your definition of a gunline is wrong, no further comment"

How about instead of people arguing about the definition of a gunline, if you have a thought about how to deafeat a certain build (serpent spam for instance) post it. Also I am amazed at the spite people in this thread seem to have for innovation...

The main reason the gunline definition is important is that your own take is wrong according to Ailros in this thread as DE venom spam has specifically been referenced. This has also made discussion impossible because I have referenced how to engage and defeat 3 types of gunline builds in this thread in multiple different ways and yet each time they have been almost completely ignored as that way does not defeat some other form of "mechanized gunline" that plays in an entirely different way.

I do agree that calling Ailros out for wanting to play niche lists is not on topic nor even productive and all the stuff about playing a gunline and that being the only way is not only wrong but just outright goofy as the thread title is relatively clear about this point.

Martel732 wrote:Look, GW decided to make the Wave Serpent essentially immortal for its point cost in the shooting phase. Why they did that, I have no idea. This fact will skew this discussion horribly.

THE way to deal with Wave Serpents at range is to spam S7/8 shots. This requires a "gunline" in some form to be viable, I think.

Not at all. The best way to kill a serpent is 1) melee, 2) melta to the butt, and 3) kill the ones that shot their serpent shields. The assertion that you can only beat serpent spamm with mass S7/8 shooting is patently false and has been shown to be so many times in the batrep part of the forum. Saying so would indicate CD would never win against waveserpents. Actually S7 shots are pretty terrible at it unless you get to ignore cover or/and tank hunter. (18 hits average to strip HP from 1 serpent is not good)


I actually really would like this discussion to go somewhere but if a solution has to expand to all there types of "mech gunlines" no solutions will be optimal or even reasonable.

What's wrong with Bike armies? Turboboost + darkshroud (you can always ally if you don't want to do DA) is a 2+ cover, 3+ armor save. Kill the markerlights first with shooting, then get into hth.

Martel732 wrote:
Look, GW decided to make the Wave Serpent essentially immortal for its point cost in the shooting phase. Why they did that, I have no idea. This fact will skew this discussion horribly.

THE way to deal with Wave Serpents at range is to spam S7/8 shots. This requires a "gunline" in some form to be viable, I think.

Can I take this as your endorsement of missile launchers ?

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Look, GW decided to make the Wave Serpent essentially immortal for its point cost in the shooting phase. Why they did that, I have no idea. This fact will skew this discussion horribly.

THE way to deal with Wave Serpents at range is to spam S7/8 shots. This requires a "gunline" in some form to be viable, I think.

Can I take this as your endorsement of missile launchers ?

Did MLs get a ROF greater than 1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Look, GW decided to make the Wave Serpent essentially immortal for its point cost in the shooting phase. Why they did that, I have no idea. This fact will skew this discussion horribly.

THE way to deal with Wave Serpents at range is to spam S7/8 shots. This requires a "gunline" in some form to be viable, I think.

Not at all. The best way to kill a serpent is 1) melee, 2) melta to the butt, and 3) kill the ones that shot their serpent shields. The assertion that you can only beat serpent spamm with mass S7/8 shooting is patently false and has been shown to be so many times in the batrep part of the forum. Saying so would indicate CD would never win against waveserpents. Actually S7 shots are pretty terrible at it unless you get to ignore cover or/and tank hunter. (18 hits average to strip HP from 1 serpent is not good)


I actually really would like this discussion to go somewhere but if a solution has to expand to all there types of "mech gunlines" no solutions will be optimal or even reasonable.

I said AT RANGE. Melee is not at range. Melta to the butt is not at range. I know very well that these are the best ways to take them out. Unfortunately, Eldar players know this as well. Also, Eldar players have this annoying tendency to keep their shields up until your weapons that are a threat are dead. I've read batreps and I don't understand why so many Eldar players are greedy/impatient.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Look, GW decided to make the Wave Serpent essentially immortal for its point cost in the shooting phase. Why they did that, I have no idea. This fact will skew this discussion horribly.

THE way to deal with Wave Serpents at range is to spam S7/8 shots. This requires a "gunline" in some form to be viable, I think.

Indeed. Hydras will eat them alive.

Serpents are better at killing Serpents, point for point, than Hydras are at killing Serpents. If we ignore cover (because Serpents can and Hydras ignore the easy cover for Serpents), it takes 225 points of Hydras to kill a Serpent. It takes 209 points of Serpent to kill a Serpent. The best counter to Serpents is Serpents. (Tau, IG, and GK units. I haven't run numbers for Tau that includes markerlights. That gets *really* complicated since MLs have so many uses. Hard to imagine anything is better than Hydras, though.)

Edit: I originally said Serpents were better at killing Hyrdas than the other way around, which was incorrect. Hydras are better at killing Serpents than vice versa, because killing a Hydra only kills 75 points. However, it stands that Serpents are better than Hydras at killing Serpents, which is what I changed.

ansacs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Look, GW decided to make the Wave Serpent essentially immortal for its point cost in the shooting phase. Why they did that, I have no idea. This fact will skew this discussion horribly.

THE way to deal with Wave Serpents at range is to spam S7/8 shots. This requires a "gunline" in some form to be viable, I think.

Not at all. The best way to kill a serpent is 1) melee, 2) melta to the butt, and 3) kill the ones that shot their serpent shields. The assertion that you can only beat serpent spamm with mass S7/8 shooting is patently false and has been shown to be so many times in the batrep part of the forum. Saying so would indicate CD would never win against waveserpents. Actually S7 shots are pretty terrible at it unless you get to ignore cover or/and tank hunter. (18 hits average to strip HP from 1 serpent is not good)

1) Meleeing a fast skimmer is easier said than done. I've done it, but with the range they have, they can usually avoid it if they're keen on it. 2) That's a good feat of maneuvering, again against a fast skimmer. I can see Drop Pods doing this occasionally but again the Serpent can be kept with its rear at board edge if he's worried about it. 3) Yes, these are better targets. They're only AV 12 with a 4+ cover they take with them. Odds of a BS4 Lascannon 1-shotting that is 6%. Odds of a unit of 4 BS4 LCs taking it out in a single volley is 21% (not 24%, by the way, because two good results doesn't net you anything, I use the binomial probability distribution). And they can take more Serpents than you can take Dev squads. And they can control when you see that opportunity by either not shooting or with their movement.

Anyway, enough bitching from me about Serpents. Especially when it's off-topic. Eeek. Here, this is relevant:

akaean wrote:What it ultiamtely comes down to, is 40K is most interesting at the 0-24 inch range. In closer ranges there is a trade off between moving closer and rapid firing but risking assault, or moving back and shooting weaker at longer ranges. Close range engagements focus far more on all three phases of the game and as a result are often more enjoyable for the players.

I think that nails it pretty well. I'm a little biased, though, as I'm mainly playing GKs these days.

Martel732 wrote:I said AT RANGE. Melee is not at range. Melta to the butt is not at range. I know very well that these are the best ways to take them out. Unfortunately, Eldar players know this as well. Also, Eldar players have this annoying tendency to keep their shields up until your weapons that are a threat are dead. I've read batreps and I don't understand why so many Eldar players are greedy/impatient.

ElCheezus wrote:1) Meleeing a fast skimmer is easier said than done. I've done it, but with the range they have, they can usually avoid it if they're keen on it. 2) That's a good feat of maneuvering, again against a fast skimmer. I can see Drop Pods doing this occasionally but again the Serpent can be kept with its rear at board edge if he's worried about it. 3) Yes, these are better targets. They're only AV 12 with a 4+ cover they take with them. Odds of a BS4 Lascannon 1-shotting that is 6%. Odds of a unit of 4 BS4 LCs taking it out in a single volley is 21% (not 24%, by the way, because two good results doesn't net you anything, I use the binomial probability distribution). And they can take more Serpents than you can take Dev squads. And they can control when you see that opportunity by either not shooting or with their movement.

Anyway, enough bitching from me about Serpents. Especially when it's off-topic. Eeek. Here, this is relevant:

So I will assume neither of you read what I posted in this thread about taking on a waveserpent list (which BTW is totally different than taking on a chimera-vets list). The basics of it is taking on waveserpent requires a three prong approach with a board control and disruption. With 3 units you can effectively engage a cluster of waveserpents and force them to reveal rear armour or allow you into melee. Additionally saying smart players keep them back and don't use the shields is actually self contradictory as if they do both they will not cause damage nor claim objectives. How do they win then? A WS player needs to either move the serpent up or fire the shield so they either are moving key units into position or dealing meaningful damage to you. Additionally if you are bringing enough threats to bear a waveserpent list usually has to fire its shields to deal enough damage to be meaningful. That or they brought major damage dealers inside the serpents so they have to move up to use them.

ElCheezus wrote:Serpents are better at killing Serpents, point for point, than Hydras are at killing Serpents. If we ignore cover (because Serpents can and Hydras ignore the easy cover for Serpents), it takes 225 points of Hydras to kill a Serpent. It takes 209 points of Serpent to kill a Serpent. The best counter to Serpents is Serpents. (Tau, IG, and GK units. I haven't run numbers for Tau that includes markerlights. That gets *really* complicated since MLs have so many uses. Hard to imagine anything is better than Hydras, though.)

Edit: I originally said Serpents were better at killing Hyrdas than the other way around, which was incorrect. Hydras are better at killing Serpents than vice versa, because killing a Hydra only kills 75 points. However, it stands that Serpents are better than Hydras at killing Serpents, which is what I changed.

Actually the best ranged unit I have seen at killing serpents is dark reapers and/or Tau buff commander+pretty much any 6-3 shot S7-9 shooting unit. The only reason I don't say Str 10 is that there isn't really much that a buff commander could join with Str10.

the answer is simple enough bring enough dakka to take out the transport (shouldnt be more than half your army if you really want to be sure to do it) the rest of your army can be anything else you want it to be, half your army being shooty isnt a gunline army.
you can probably have less than a third of your army being a good shooting and still pull this off, I dont play IG so I dont know what options your have for that but for chaos you can get 3 teams of 7ish Havocs with 4 autocannons in an Aegis defense line with Quad gun plus 3 heldrakes and you got a solid base to deal with any of those lists leaving plenty of points to do all sorts of other stuff, yes that is a cheesy start but you could find ways to change it arround.
This doesnt have to be a gunline depending on what you use those extra points towards.
and isnt a mech gunline at all.

You know, the wave serpent has two other weapons it can fire even if it keeps the shield in defensive mode. Wait a turn or two for the warp spiders to scrub all the devastators to death or for bright lances to frag the tri-las preds and THEN start in with shooting the shields. The game has more than two turns, you know.

Units getting close enough to assault the skimmers have a horrible tendency to eat a full war walker barrage to the face. Because Eldar players know what makes wave serpents go boom, too.

Eldar can wait until quite late to claim anything, because they are fast. I know this works, because my BA often *retreat* for a turn or two to deny flank or avoid CC and then claim stuff later.

Martel732 wrote:
You know, the wave serpent has two other weapons it can fire even if it keeps the shield in defensive mode. Wait a turn or two for the warp spiders to scrub all the devastators to death or for bright lances to frag the tri-las preds and THEN start in with shooting the shields. The game has more than two turns, you know.

Units getting close enough to assault the skimmers have a horrible tendency to eat a full war walker barrage to the face. Because Eldar players know what makes wave serpents go boom, too.

And how many of those weapons have a range greater than 36"? and how much damage does a single scatter laser do to a SM? (almost a whole marine!) and with the shucannon? (almost another marine!) So a whole 5 serpents can kill a SM TAC squad assuming you manage to get them all in range with their backs to the board and still in range.

Why do you assume that a unit of devastators is hanging out in the back field with no support and no cover. Additionally it has been a while since I saw regular devastators toted as being a standard. Do you honestly believe that all of the opponent's can openers will be sitting around with no bubble wrapping and/or proper corner and cover placement? I personally am seeing melta bikers, drop sternguard or legion of the damned, drop fusion suits, Iron Fist Centurion Devs, etc. as the long range can openers. The predators also work but they are usually in a corner behind bolstered ruin wall, skyshield, or ADL.

I think you are forgetting that you either move up to 12" then fire your guns or turbo boost. Over the course of a 5 turn game without using shields you will only kill an average of 16 MEQ or 49 GEQ. If you start firing your shield on turn 2 then you are susceptible to DS melta (which was one of my suggestion). Your making huge assumptions that an army that spent over a third of its points on skimmer tanks which it keeps out of optimum range and doesn't shoot it's main weapon can match an army that spent those points on stuff to kill things. You also are assuming you have stuff outside the serpents which magically will not be targeted or killed.

You are looking at whole eldar armies versus the single unit. The warwalkers can fire but yet dropping melta or fast closing melee doesn't get to close nor fire back? Spiders kill long range anti tank turn two which is before the anti tank can kill a warwalker on turn one?

The DS unit shows up, apparently fires at the front of a serpent according to you, and ignores the WW which will kill them to a man. These are what people are talking about when they say assuming 6's for the opponent and assuming 1's for yourself.

It is frustrating as I play 4 different MTO style armies and I am trying to give a generalized version of a strategy that works and works well against serpent spam style armies (CD-FMC circus, CSM plague marines/oblits, DW, and RW/white scars).

I think you are severely underestimating how painful the Eldar can make getting these rear shots. But obviously, all the tablings I see Eldar putting on people means nothing.

I never said I was rolling all 1's and he was rolling all 6's. My problem is that the hoops that have to be jumped through to deal with the Eldar *troop transport* are kinda silly.

I don't like suicide melta troops because I play TAC lists, and I still find throwing away marines to be a dubious strategy.

Eldar are the perfect army to stick it to players who thought they could gunline. The problem being that a good MTO type list is hard to do with many 5th edition armies and is a more difficult army to play than a gunline.

The serpent isn't a "troop transport" anymore. It is a gunboat with some troops in it. Actually my biggest disappointment with the dex is they didn't allow falcons as transports so they relegated the falcon as near useless. The weird thing about serpents is they are ~3 times the price of the other "troop transports" other than the necron flyer...so there is your comparison point. The real problem with the serpent is the dexs need to be updated with their ignore cover weapons. (and DA just have to take it like always)

DS melta is not the same as suicide melta. It just needs an aggressive list that will be in the opponent's face turn 2 f the opponent only shoots at the DS melta. It also needs very careful placement (ie it uses all phases of the game )

Wow, this has been an interesting (and long!) read.

I think Ailaros's question is perfectly valid and although many seem to disagree about the usefulness of this thread (due mainly to the definition of mechanised gunline) there have been some excellent points and tactics so far.

I'd like to pose the question another way, this is also a "general" question but may get closer to the question.

Rather than looking to destroy the gunline, perhaps the question is how do you neutralise its advantages enough to win the game?

Of the rulebook missions, 5 are objective based, and as pointed out a couple of them give advantages to HS or FA units. Then there are the secondaries, which in many of the games I play are in fact the deciding factor (particularly First Blood).

So, for 5 of the 6 book missions (as an aside, +1 to Xenocidal's batreps which are excellent and interesting scenarios) what general things do you need to do in order to win the game?

So, noting that every player has different reasons to use and not use certain units (flyers, mech etc) I suggest the following for discussion.

a) Timing...the key thing with timing is to have more or equal numbers of objectives/secondaries at the time the game ends. So, the strategy inputs are that units have to either make it through 5 turns (resilience) or be protected enough to be able to do the job (via reserves, bastions, LR, whatever). Also you need to place the objectives in a way you can achieve the end result.

b) Mobility : Mobility is primarily required to challenge/contest the opponents objectives. Mech gunlines can do this hands down.
So, generally, if you don't have the ability to move fast, the units that are moving need to be either tougher, or so numerous that they can't all be completely destroyed.

c) Area denial: It is not necessary to kill all the opponents mech. It is only necessary to be able to deny them the ability to contest your main objective (the one you hope will win you the game).

d) Effectiveness : I suggest that this needs to be refocussed...effectiveness needs to be measured on whether you can win the game....not on whether you can pop mech and kill everything inside.

From this, some highly generic rules for discussion

* Play on tables which have an appropriate amount of terrain - this seems to be a critical point

* Remember that the objective is to win the game and play to your strategy.

* Get First Blood. As there are likely to be significant difficulties keeping a mech gunline away from your objectives you NEED to get First Blood.

* Resilience : The easiest way not to get shot off the board, is not to be on it. Reserve a couple of troop units (preferably an outflanker/DS if you can - that helps with mobility). Otherwise take the bastion/skyshield/whatever. Abuse LOS blocking terrain. Abuse anything that gives you the ability to determine whether reserves come on.

* Area denial : You need a plan to be able to kill a couple of mech, not all of it. You can assault, shoot, block, whatever, but make sure you time this properly.

* Resilience (again) : Troop resilience is going to be critical - get the 2+ save in the troop squads (if you can). If not, have way larger squads because only 1 model needs to survive to contest (or capture). Given a 6 troop restriction, if you aren't going to be using mech, you'll probably want all 6, with a mix of large, tougher units and small min squads. With this, the focus should be on pushing the timing issue onto the mech gunline...make it hard for them to completely kill all your units in the necessary time.

Now, the problem with this is that you may not like the resulting list, or the way it plays. So, the answer to the OP question may generally be - no, it isn't possible (or it is only possible with certain armies - ones that can meet the above criteria - Crons comes to mind (and I'm not talking about wraithwing with flyer spam)).

For me, I have no problems having a fun game of mech gunline vs mech gunline. The ability to outthink your opponent and position your mech better is a challenge in and of itself. It is even more challenging when you have to take on a mech gunline without one (whatever your definition of mech gunline is).

Given 6th ed focus on objectives I think any army can win against any other....IF there is appropriate levels of terrain and there is a correct focus on secondaries.

MarkCron wrote:

From this, some highly generic rules for discussion

* Play on tables which have an appropriate amount of terrain - this seems to be a critical point

* Remember that the objective is to win the game and play to your strategy.

* Get First Blood. As there are likely to be significant difficulties keeping a mech gunline away from your objectives you NEED to get First Blood.

* Resilience : The easiest way not to get shot off the board, is not to be on it. Reserve a couple of troop units (preferably an outflanker/DS if you can - that helps with mobility). Otherwise take the bastion/skyshield/whatever. Abuse LOS blocking terrain. Abuse anything that gives you the ability to determine whether reserves come on.

* Area denial : You need a plan to be able to kill a couple of mech, not all of it. You can assault, shoot, block, whatever, but make sure you time this properly.

* Resilience (again) : Troop resilience is going to be critical - get the 2+ save in the troop squads (if you can). If not, have way larger squads because only 1 model needs to survive to contest (or capture). Given a 6 troop restriction, if you aren't going to be using mech, you'll probably want all 6, with a mix of large, tougher units and small min squads. With this, the focus should be on pushing the timing issue onto the mech gunline...make it hard for them to completely kill all your units in the necessary time.

I like your post, and you raise some good points, and these general strategy bits are good. BUT the problem with this is that it is actually playing to the Eldar's game. I'm an oldschool Eldar Player, playing all through 5th and into 6th with the Old Codex, and the above was pretty much the only way Eldar would win. Not even a year ago, Eldar were outshot by nearly every other army, and out assaulted by nearly every other army, the path to victory was essentially always keep the objective of the game in mind, make use of terrain to block off enemy shooting lanes, focus fire on the threats, and then make a play for the objectives at the end, or retreat once you've gained a kill point lead. People keep toting Line of Sight Blocking Terrain, and honestly Eldar love LoS blocking terrain, see the thing is with 12 inch move and shoot 2 guns Eldar can hide from some guns, and focus fire on others, then switch. Their gunline can move around and get better angles, because their stuff is faster.

So what the problem is, is that Eldar didn't get any worse at this style of play, except now with the boost up to bs4 and the Serpent Shield becoming an insanely good weapon, Eldar just end up tabling their opponents instead of barely managing to supress them. Dancing around terrain and trying to use Area denial is playing to Eldar's game, and is not a good idea.

The trick to beating Eldar was, and still is (abiet more difficult now) is to force them into the open. Wave Serpents aren't invincible, and most tanks i've lost in 6th edition whether Serpents, Falcons, or Chaos Rhinos have been killed by Hull Points, which the shield does not defend against. Honestly the less terrain there is on the board, the less effective Eldar are on the whole. And with Eldar at least, there isn't a lot of killyness inside the Serpents unless your opponent is filling them with full Guardian or Dire Avenger Squads or Wraithguard Squads, at which point it should be a more reasonable number of Serpents on the table.

Flyers work pretty well against Eldar
Storm Ravens are actually pretty scary for Eldar if they don't have a Crimson Hunter, or the Crimson Hunter is already on the board. And they can slingshot a terminator or marine unit and maybe a dread into a multi charge against several serpents.
Heldrakes still give Eldar fits, namely because they are pretty durable, and can be used to target Jetbikes, Reapers, or Wraith units on objectives and make it difficult for Eldar to win objective games.
Vendettas are also highly effective since they are durable with the flying rules, and shoot hard at the Serpents with Las Cannons. At the end of the game they can drop off scoring units as well.
Night Scythes should be able to outshoot an equivalent number of points of Serpents without breaking a sweat, and drop off troops onto objectives with pinpoint accuracy.

Similar to fliers, units which don't need line of sight are effective against Serpents, like Manticores. a Manticore can hide deep in cover which makes even a 12 inch strafe unlikely to see it, and can still indirect fire its d3 s10 large blasts all over the Serpents and potentially get multiple glancing hits on several Serpents.

The issue at hand, is that Serpents right now are a devestating fire base, that plays extremely well to the Line of Sight Blocking + Focus Fire strategies that are often effective against gunlines. And with the new buffs to the army find that instead of getting overrun by Assault Marines or Bikes Eldar can often shoot them off the table before they get to them. That said, I find bikes and other fast assault units can still put a lot of pressure on Eldar, but certain things help a lot. Mark of Nurgle can be great for making Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons less effective overall, Feel No Pain is always excellent for saving a few more guys, having a 2+ save (sanguinary guard for instance) can make closing a lot easier as well especially if the eldar player is just running 5 man DA squads. And having multiple threats, an entire army of fast close range units will have a much better chance at closing with Eldar than just a few units.

 akaean wrote:
Flyers work pretty well against Eldar
Storm Ravens are actually pretty scary for Eldar if they don't have a Crimson Hunter, or the Crimson Hunter is already on the board. And they can slingshot a terminator or marine unit and maybe a dread into a multi charge against several serpents.
Heldrakes still give Eldar fits, namely because they are pretty durable, and can be used to target Jetbikes, Reapers, or Wraith units on objectives and make it difficult for Eldar to win objective games.
Vendettas are also highly effective since they are durable with the flying rules, and shoot hard at the Serpents with Las Cannons. At the end of the game they can drop off scoring units as well.
Night Scythes should be able to outshoot an equivalent number of points of Serpents without breaking a sweat, and drop off troops onto objectives with pinpoint accuracy.

Similar to fliers, units which don't need line of sight are effective against Serpents, like Manticores. a Manticore can hide deep in cover which makes even a 12 inch strafe unlikely to see it, and can still indirect fire its d3 s10 large blasts all over the Serpents and potentially get multiple glancing hits on several Serpents.

This is true but not a general solution to this type of army. Storm ravens can be entirely ignored by serpent spam armies and many armies cannot even take decent flyers. Vendetta, night scythes, storm eagles, storm talons, and nightwings are all flyers that can be very annoying to serpents but that is because they can either be spammed to counter serpents or can get rear shots.

Manticores are mediocre against the serpents but devastating against everything else. The problem being that serpents get a cover save against them just for moving. Both of these suggestions also ignores the entire non mechanized "gunline" aspect of the thread. Still a good units though.

 akaean wrote:
People keep toting Line of Sight Blocking Terrain, and honestly Eldar love LoS blocking terrain, see the thing is with 12 inch move and shoot 2 guns Eldar can hide from some guns, and focus fire on others, then switch. Their gunline can move around and get better angles, because their stuff is faster.

So what the problem is, is that Eldar didn't get any worse at this style of play, except now with the boost up to bs4 and the Serpent Shield becoming an insanely good weapon, Eldar just end up tabling their opponents instead of barely managing to supress them. Dancing around terrain and trying to use Area denial is playing to Eldar's game, and is not a good idea.

The trick to beating Eldar was, and still is (abiet more difficult now) is to force them into the open. Wave Serpents aren't invincible, and most tanks i've lost in 6th edition whether Serpents, Falcons, or Chaos Rhinos have been killed by Hull Points, which the shield does not defend against. Honestly the less terrain there is on the board, the less effective Eldar are on the whole. And with Eldar at least, there isn't a lot of killyness inside the Serpents unless your opponent is filling them with full Guardian or Dire Avenger Squads or Wraithguard Squads, at which point it should be a more reasonable number of Serpents on the table.

This is self contradictory. You say that one of the strength's of the eldar is their mobility and then go on to say that you should not use board control to limit that mobility. You also ignore the physics of a LoS blocking object in that the further you are away from the object the further you have to travel to change perspective. This means to see around a LoS blocking building in the middle of the board the serpent has to either travel much more than 12" or they have to get closer to it...guess what that does to the rear armour and what range that brings the 60" range serpent shield gunboat into? Interesting that suddenly with 2 LoS building mid board we are talking about either serpents with limited fire lanes or serpents moving up into the midboard area.

You repeatedly ignore in this discussion that serpent generate their own cover and are immobilized on a 1 when they land in terrain. Serpents want a largely empty board with perhaps a couple walls in their deployment zone. They dread area terrain everywhere and LoS blockers in the midfield/opponent's deployment zone.

Additionally how do you propose to "force them into the open" when you propose that board control and mobility are not factors? Are you aware that serpents can sit with their back to the board edge and gain a 5+ or 4+ cover save depending on holo fields? Serpents do not need cover nor do they have to close unless you give them a reason to do so.

Look through my 5th edition tactica. The mech eldar tactics were almost completely based around ample LoS blocking terrain. I would almost go so far as to say Eldar were unplayable against IG or SW on an open board because they would simply be out ranged and out shot. What line of sight blocking terrain did was allow Eldar to isolate parts of the enemy army, allowing them a force concentration advantage.

What people aren't getting is that eldar now in 6th edition are *just as good* at this if not better. The issue is now Eldar can outshoot these armies in the open, and generate their own cover. But line of sight blocking terrain in the middle still plays to eldar strength of isolate and destroy. Just like it always has.

I also have played eldar through 5th edition (since 3ed actually). There has been a huge change from 5th edition skimmer armies. This being that serpents are now gun boats that can transport troops not troop transports. Now the majority of lists that use them take minimal guardian or dire avenger squads and rely on the serpents, warp spiders, and warwalkers to do damage. They also tend to keep them more dispersed rather than grouped up into armoured columns like they used to. The range edge is actually with the serpents now. LoS blocking terrain always benefits the army with the lowest range as it is the only limiting factor to a 60" range weapon.

You keep stating 5ed tactics but the game rules and the vehicles in question are more different than rhinos and razorbacks or fire dragons and dark reapers.

Are we getting too focussed on Eldar here?

It seems that the primary concern with the Eldar is both their mobility and their shooting effectiveness.

Coming back to my earlier point, with a combination of the use of reserves, terrain and resilient squads AND assuming that the non eldar player gets First Blood, what would the non eldar player need to do to win?

I don't think it is necessary to kill all the serpents....but can the eldar, in a say 1850/1750 list, shoot 2 resilient troop squads (ie with 2+ save) off the board in one turn? A realistic view please - this would be say turn 3, and SOME damage would have been done by the non eldar player (maybe ).

I've had Eldar kill 21 FNP ASM in a turn that I was getting down to shuriken range with BA. Yeah, they used their shields THAT turn, but the were fine whittling me to down by 7-8 marines a turn before that with immortal wave serpents. 7-8+7-8+21= Eldar win right there without even trying hard.

Martel732 wrote:
I've had Eldar kill 21 FNP ASM in a turn that I was getting down to shuriken range with BA. Yeah, they used their shields THAT turn, but the were fine whittling me to down by 7-8 marines a turn before that with immortal wave serpents. 7-8+7-8+21= Eldar win right there without even trying hard.

So what you are telling me is that an eldar player was within 36" range of your ASM with ~8 serpents for two turns without you doing any damage whatsoever and then they were able to close 8 squads of dire avengers to within 18" of your squads and shoot you to death. I am not surprised at the loss since seemingly they shot you with no counter for 3 turns. Did you try to refuse flank and DS half you army on one side of his army? Did you take melta on any of you ASM? I just have a hard time imagining this fight as anything but you rolling all 1's in your shooting and assault ranges.

Additionally if we want to talk about games we have played I played a game recently where I melted half my plasma guns (in a mech vet army) in a single turn with 20 out of 30 rolls being 1's. Does this mean I should not use plasma or that mech vets are terrible? (I also have a game with my eldar in which I dangerous terrained my jetbike farseer to death in 2 turns) Quoting games is of limited use.

War walkers and wraith knights were also involved.

I'm just providing one data point that shows Eldar can do plenty of damage with their shields up. I think a bit of reduced firepower is worth an almost immortal transport. "Oh, you paid for lascannons? Sucker! You can't penetrate my tanks, LOL"

Deep strike is a sucker's bet. All it does is just piecemeal your list for your opponent.

And, yeah, I shot back, but have you added up the BA's throw weight lately? And do you think the Eldar guy would be dumb enough to leave his shields down if I could get meltas within range? Please. The serpent shield is the ultimate middle finger to melta.

If you want to say this says more about how miserable the BA are right now, that's fine. But please acknowledge the fact that Eldar lists can do a lot of damage without firing the shields for a couple of turns. Note that there is also not much reason to hold back if you opponent lacks ranged AP 2 or AP 1. I don't think AP 3 MLs are scary enough to sacrifice the damage output.

How many points were you playing if we are talking about wraithknight(S) and warwalkers in a serpent army?

DS is only a suckers bet if you don't bring a comms relay. If you do it is a beta strike. Or if you took ASM w/ DPs then it is an alpha strike with some minimum ASM squads coming down later to contest.

The nice thing about LC is they keep the shields up and buy you some time to maneouvre something that can shoot it in the butt or assault it. This is why DS is important as it force a serpent player to either shoot the shield and possible get slagged by melta or let you get in closer. Honestly I am suprised you are not complaining more about the wraithknight as it usually brings the pain against BA.

Honestly BA are not in a great spot against much of anything right now. Heck it doesn't even have anything to do with gunlines nor with mechanized forces.

I'm working on marine lists to address my Eldar/Tau woes. I believe the above game was 1999+1. (1 FOC) BA is stuff is just so expensive, and Eldar have withering firepower at 36". They just force save after save. Oh, and in this game, the war walkers had some nice stuff to go run behind after they shot. Don't forget there's nothing stopping them from backing up and just scooping objectives after you have basically nothing left.

Nah, Wraithknights are way easier to kill than Wave Serpents. Plus, their shooting is weaker for their points, I think. And Mephiston can eat endless amounts of them as long as he doesn't get shot to death.

I'm making some allied lists that contain Mephiston and other BA that still kinda work, and then the rest Iron Hands.

I've always enjoyed my Ravenwing. Might get tabled half the time, but damn do they make a mess out of gunlines in the process. Yes, please line your guys up so I can just zoom up one after another and poke them to death with my bolt pistol.