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I didn't claim that the daemonhood itself was a victory, I merely used it as an example that the chaos gods saw the battle as a victory. The Black templars weren't formed through the Iron cage incident, the marines that were to become BTs were zealous and fanatical already at the battle for terra, they were merely given a chapter of their own after the incident. If Dorn hadn't fought the needless battle there would still have been BTs, the only differance would have been that they would have fought as a IF company instead.

And isn't the fact that Perturabo could have chosen to kill Dorn but decided to torment him instead a sign of his superior generalship and mastery over Dorn as a siege specialist? I don't dispute that it would have been smarter by Perturabo to kill Dorn merely that he he , at least in this instance proved to be a superior general.

 Dantioch wrote:
The Black templars weren't formed through the Iron cage incident, the marines that were to become BTs were zealous and fanatical already at the battle for terra, they were merely given a chapter of their own after the incident. If Dorn hadn't fought the needless battle there would still have been BTs, the only differance would have been that they would have fought as a IF company instead.

Had there been no Iron cage accident, then there wouldn’t have been a BT chapter, or CF chapter for that matter. Dorn’s men weren’t willing to follow the UM example and have their legion split up into chapters. It is also important to note how much the IoM was in danger of having another civil war between IF and IG/UM. The only way for Dorn to solve this crisis was to throw his legion into the fire, dramatic I know, but that’s how it is worded in the SM codex. And so he did, right into Perturabo’s fortress. So ironically enough Perturabo unknowingly helped the Imperium avert a second Horus heresy lol.

 Dantioch wrote:
And isn't the fact that Perturabo could have chosen to kill Dorn

Could he actually kill Dorn though? IW had them by the balls that’s for sure, but was Dorn and his army ever in risk of being destroyed in that war? I don’t believe so.

 Dantioch wrote:
And isn't the fact that Perturabo could have chosen to kill Dorn but decided to torment him instead a sign of his superior generalship and mastery over Dorn as a siege specialist? I don't dispute that it would have been smarter by Perturabo to kill Dorn merely that he he , at least in this instance proved to be a superior general.

I don’t really see any display of great generalship in that battle, neither from Dorn nor Perturabo. Dorn led his hated for Perturabo overtake him and as result he ran directly into his said brother’s trap, whereas Perturabo had some craving need to see his brother suffer, which ended up benefiting the IoM more than it did chaos. Both of them wiffed it.

But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

The overall effect of the battle on history certainly favoured the IoM more than it did chaos but it is hard to argeu that the IFs could ever have emerged victorious, ie killed every IW and torn down the fortress, from the Iron Cage.

I still believe the IW could have "won" at the cost of their own lives

And again why couldn't Dorn have just come out of the pain glove and said I'm the primarch, we are going to split the legion into chapters, I mean if the IF were loyal enough to hang around the iron cage when Dorn said so, surely they would have been loyal enough to split if Dorn says so, without having to get a bunch of them killed "to ensure their purity/loyalty/whatever".

because they had failed and had to be redeemed through fire (or in this case pain) in the eyes of the emparah

 Dantioch wrote:
But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

I haven’t read anything about the Iron cage incident that makes me think Dorn was ever in mortal danger, or in risk of being trapped for that matter. His legion took a pounding because they deliberately charged into a meat grinder.

And I wouldn’t say Guilliman "saved Dorn" from doom. It is more like his entry alone ended the fight by making the other two lesser Primarchs aware of how trivial their struggle seemed, now that Guilliman, a real Ares, had arrived on the stage. .

 Dantioch wrote:
The overall effect of the battle on history certainly favoured the IoM more than it did chaos but it is hard to argeu that the IFs could ever have emerged victorious, ie killed every IW and torn down the fortress, from the Iron Cage.

Agreed. IF were not meant to win that day.

Here are some quotes from the original index Astartes text concerning the iron Cage incident:

"Still Perturabo remained patient, he allowed Dorn to rampage around the trenches calling his name and demanding personal combat, content that the sight of the Primarch's impotence would demoralise the Imperial Fists."

"Unable to abandon their Primarch the Imperial Fists prepared to die with him"

"If Perturabo had a failing, it was that he had grown to enjoy tormenting his enemies to much. He could have finished off the Imperial Fists at any time but chose not to. "

"Fortunately for Dorn, Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue."

And finally:

"Rogal Dorn was a broken man, it was nineteen years before he and the Imperial fists could once again go to war."

Some of these, especially the last one might have been retconed but this was the original outcome of the iron cage incident.

Considering that after the HH the IF legion scoured more traitor marines from the galaxy than any other....

But they did that before the iron cage, right? Or have I got the timeline confused?

So they had already purged themselves of failure, by kicking the most backside in the events after the siege of terra. I just cant see how Dorn can be painted in a good light for any of his actions revolving around the iron cage.

that's the thing, he was shown with faults therefore more human, he felt it was HIS fault the empy died (one of the things he was charged with at the end of the great crusade) and that he was still unworthy/unredeemed. Its the breakdown of "omg, its all my fault" taking all the blame (without any REAL reason) and placing it on himself. He felt he needed to be punished for 1. allowing the emp to -almost- die. allowing the traitors to -almost- take the fortress at terra, and -almost- causing a second civil war due to his legion not splitting up.

 Zakiriel wrote:
Imperial Fists, because

This. All of this.

The Death Korps of Krieg would demolish both of them.

Even if the IW and IF got together to defend against the DKoK, they would lose in siege warfare.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Death Korps of Krieg would demolish both of them.

Even if the IW and IF got together to defend against the DKoK, they would lose in siege warfare.

A. The Death Korps of Krieg are not in this thread, you are not being funny, or even original. You one of many unfunny individuals going on an off-topic tangent about the Death Korps of Krieg.

B. Both the Imperial Fists in their prime and the Iron Warriors in general would crush the Death Korps of Krieg like insects, unless it was a very small amount of Marines against the entire regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 raiden wrote:
that's the thing, he was shown with faults therefore more human, he felt it was HIS fault the empy died (one of the things he was charged with at the end of the great crusade) and that he was still unworthy/unredeemed. Its the breakdown of "omg, its all my fault" taking all the blame (without any REAL reason) and placing it on himself. He felt he needed to be punished for 1. allowing the emp to -almost- die. allowing the traitors to -almost- take the fortress at terra, and -almost- causing a second civil war due to his legion not splitting up.

I am pretty sure he's just a psychopath, tbh.

The more I read about Rogal Dorn, the more I am convinced the man is completely off his rocker.

I'd have to go with the Imperial Fists personally.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
B. Both the Imperial Fists in their prime and the Iron Warriors in general would crush the Death Korps of Krieg like insects

Because, of course, ceramite power armour is imprevious to lascannons, melta weapons, plasma weapons, artillery barrages, massed lasgun fire and Space Marines can not ever be outthought or outfought or ever be ambushed or outmanoeuvered and never, of course, ever make mistakes. If you put the whole of both Legions up against the whole of the Death Korps, the Astartes are going to get one hell of a headache and that's just from the artillery, nevermind the massive amounts of armoured vehicles and the special & heavy weapons that the Death Korps use. Remember also that the Death Korps can replace regiments quickly and easily whereas how long would it take a depleted Legion to get back up to strength? You can't win a war of attrition against the Death Korps.

I gotta say that as a besieger I don't think anyone is better than the IG. As the besieged they are still pretty good but moral is always a problem.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Death Korps of Krieg would demolish both of them.

Even if the IW and IF got together to defend against the DKoK, they would lose in siege warfare.

A. The Death Korps of Krieg are not in this thread, you are not being funny, or even original. You one of many unfunny individuals going on an off-topic tangent about the Death Korps of Krieg.

B. Both the Imperial Fists in their prime and the Iron Warriors in general would crush the Death Korps of Krieg like insects, unless it was a very small amount of Marines against the entire regiment.

A. They are in this thread; they may not be included in the poll (or the opening post, but that may be for similar reasons), but the Thread Title includes them, imo. Myself and the others here are just trying to help the OP by saying that the Kings of the Siege are the DKoK, about which he may not know. It's entirely possible that he wanted to know who the kings of the siege are, and simply did not consider the DKoK and left them absent from the poll as an oversight. I am not trying to be funny, and I contest the contention that it is off topic, though arguing about it certainly is.

B. An earlier post addressed this, but with both sides in their prime, the DKoK would probably destroy both Legions. And it's not "the entire regiment;" the entire Korps is comprised of 50 "notable" regiments (citation: lexicanum), with the highest number being 933rd Infantry, provided that they name them sequentially. This number includes Infantry Regiments, Siege Regiments, Armored Regiments, and Superheavy Tank Companies.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Because, of course, ceramite power armour is imprevious to lascannons, melta weapons, plasma weapons, artillery barrages, massed lasgun fire and Space Marines can not ever be outthought or outfought or ever be ambushed or outmanoeuvered and never, of course, ever make mistakes. If you put the whole of both Legions up against the whole of the Death Korps, the Astartes are going to get one hell of a headache and that's just from the artillery, nevermind the massive amounts of armoured vehicles and the special & heavy weapons that the Death Korps use. Remember also that the Death Korps can replace regiments quickly and easily whereas how long would it take a depleted Legion to get back up to strength? You can't win a war of attrition against the Death Korps.

They wouldn't fight a war of attrition.

The Legions benefited from their own sustainable fleet, indentured soldiers under their command, vastly superior equipment, obviously considerably superior training and personal prowess, and overall superior generals running the show, including two Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A. They are in this thread; they may not be included in the poll (or the opening post, but that may be for similar reasons), but the Thread Title includes them, imo. Myself and the others here are just trying to help the OP by saying that the Kings of the Siege are the DKoK, about which he may not know. It's entirely possible that he wanted to know who the kings of the siege are, and simply did not consider the DKoK and left them absent from the poll as an oversight. I am not trying to be funny, and I contest the contention that it is off topic, though arguing about it certainly is.

It is also entirely possible that he wanted this to be a battle between the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors, as he said.

You're off-topic.

B. An earlier post addressed this, but with both sides in their prime, the DKoK would probably destroy both Legions. And it's not "the entire regiment;" the entire Korps is comprised of 50 "notable" regiments (citation: lexicanum), with the highest number being 933rd Infantry, provided that they name them sequentially. This number includes Infantry Regiments, Siege Regiments, Armored Regiments, and Superheavy Tank Companies.

And all of that means nothing in the face of orbital support.

 Dantioch wrote:
But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

By that same notion, if Dorn hadn't let his emotions cloud his judgement, he never would have walked into Perturabo's trap in the first place.

Is it really "tacticool genius" on Perturabo's part when Dorn basically willingly marched into a situation that he knew he couldn't win?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

By that same notion, if Dorn hadn't let his emotions cloud his judgement, he never would have walked into Perturabo's trap in the first place.

Is it really "tacticool genius" on Perturabo's part when Dorn basically willingly marched into a situation that he knew he couldn't win?

He didn't walk into knowing that he could not win, he publicly boasted and swore before Guilliman that he would utterly crush Perturabo and tear down the eternal fortress, something he failed by quite a lot. He was just bad at reading the situation and seeing the trap right before his eyes, therefore making him a worse general.

 Dantioch wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

By that same notion, if Dorn hadn't let his emotions cloud his judgement, he never would have walked into Perturabo's trap in the first place.

Is it really "tacticool genius" on Perturabo's part when Dorn basically willingly marched into a situation that he knew he couldn't win?

He didn't walk into knowing that he could not win, he publicly boasted and swore before Guilliman that he would utterly crush Perturabo and tear down the eternal fortress, something he failed by quite a lot. He was just bad at reading the situation and seeing the trap right before his eyes, therefore making him a worse general.

cites? I have never heard that, though I have heard about him taking them in to "cleanse through pain".

 raiden wrote:
cites? I have never heard that, though I have heard about him taking them in to "cleanse through pain".

As per index Astartes 1, Dorn publicly stated that he would dig Perturabo up and bring him back in an iron cage. Hence the name of the battle.

Voted for Fists. I think their discipline and cold resolve would see them through.
Not saying the IWs arent disciplined too, just that the Fists are imho the best at what they do - siege.

edit

Iron Warriors still operate as a Legion, and have the fancy Daemon Engines to support them. I think they'd win.

Totally not biased for Chaos.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Iron Warriors still operate as a Legion, and have the fancy Daemon Engines to support them. I think they'd win.

Totally not biased for Chaos.

except... they don't trust their "brothers" anymore, they are always trying to 1 up the other or looking over their back trying NOT to get 1 uped.

 raiden wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
Iron Warriors still operate as a Legion, and have the fancy Daemon Engines to support them. I think they'd win.

Totally not biased for Chaos.

except... they don't trust their "brothers" anymore, they are always trying to 1 up the other or looking over their back trying NOT to get 1 uped.

This point keeps coming up and I have to say that if this was the blood feud, match of the century, where objectives were clear and obvious and both sides are doing what they do best (IF defending, IW's assaulting), then this mentality shouldn't come in so much. I would expect both sides to be bitter-hardened against each other in a fight like this. Essentially, that paranoia argument is like saying the IW break out into a power struggle on the siege lines in the middle of a bombardment.

Since the DKoK keep coming up, what is it exactly that makes them superior to Space Marines?

I get that imperial armor is supposed to be tough and we're talking about the ultimate turtle force, but it's still IG v. SM and IG never win that fight. Even with diminished numbers in the Chapters, physiologically speaking alone, the SM win. There are numerous examples in Treacheries of the Space Marines where IG fortresses, Ecclesiarchy Citadels and other similar structures in equally hostile terrains are cracked open by a siege force and the insides killed by cold climates as quickly as bolter round.

So unless Superman is backing them, I fail to see what the DKoK could have in the face of Daemon Engines, Primarchs, Super Soldiers, Superior Equipment, Titan Legions, Genetic Pre-disposition and 10,000 years+ of experience for some?

Bane Blades? Probably flexing my ignorance here, but I'm genuinely curious as to what bests Perturabo's angriest or Dorn's stubbornest in the realm of man?