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I did. that is true.

I also said that I would go a round without using them, to see what they were like, I believe in the section I quoted. If not, here is the majority of the conversation, identities removed (Im green):

rigeld2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:

Weazel wrote:Take a shooty army and every MSS is 15 points wasted. Welcome to RockPaperHammer 40k.

Asking someone to leave out MSS so his three CC monsters can destroy his army in two turns flat is like asking someone to just bend over and take it up the you-know-what

Sure MSS could use a slight cost increase and not be available to Lords, but let's be honest, who runs Lords these days anyway?.

I do I need 4+ Res for my troopers. And thanks for the emphasised part.

So... You wanted to play against FDPs because you don't see what the big deal is, but you also acknowledge that they're brutal in CC and you have to use a severely under costed piece of equipment to deal with them.
How is that not knowing what the big deal is?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
If that's your attitude then your not going to get a game anytime soon from me.

I read to that, and ignored everything after.

Dear the rest of the people reading this, do me a favour and rip this guy apart

Actually - no. You started this thread saying:

Me: No, I want to see firsthand why people think FDPs are so ridiculous...
dont go wussing out because I have a couple of fancy trinkets XD

You won't see why they're ridiculous when you're using MSS.
You have the poor attitude here.

Thank you at least someone here knows what im trying to say

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

 easysauce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

If what you are saying is true than yes. Perhaps not with intent to cheat however. They do get to use your weapons against you however. So they can use your force weapon activation or black mace or whatever else you may have.

 easysauce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

Do you never ask to see their codex? It's pretty clear how it works in there.
But yes - they can force weapon you to death.

JPong wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

If what you are saying is true than yes. Perhaps not with intent to cheat however. They do get to use your weapons against you however. So they can use your force weapon activation or black mace or whatever else you may have.

They don't get the +D6 daemon weapon attacks with the Black Mace. They do get the Fleshbane and Toughness test, however.

Also, daemon princes are ld9, so even worse....

I also notice that the only people griping about MSS are those who are using daemon princes of some sort. If it's that much of an issue, only have 1 or 2 DP, or even none, and if you do, use a more conservative approach than the "run-amok-squishing-every-enemy-in-my-path" strategy. Believe it or not, there are was of dealing with MSS.

I don't really see a problem with MSS, coming from a Space Marine that's been punked by Crons (guess im lucky i make my 3D6s). I never just send my ultra killy CM solo against the MSS lord, the key (just like with killing riptides) is to mitigate mss by feeding a lowly sgt. And have your killy CM or similar character rampage through his unit, and then utilize the big necron weakness, low iniative, to punk him by sweeping his unit, hich then he will have to test for his RP, because he has the same chance to get back up as you have to hit yourself.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I also notice that the only people griping about MSS are those who are using daemon princes of some sort. If it's that much of an issue, only have 1 or 2 DP, or even none, and if you do, use a more conservative approach than the "run-amok-squishing-every-enemy-in-my-path" strategy. Believe it or not, there are was of dealing with MSS.

There are, yes.
But there's a difference between "Let's see what FDPs can do!" And "Let's see what FDPs can do when I force them to ignore my troops and HQs!"

I don't run Demons, I'm a Tyranid player - but the issues are similar.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Believe it or not, there are was of dealing with MSS.

As long as you remember the "random" and - if charging - only challenge after the Necron has resolved MSS.

I actually had a Necron player ask about the models in b-2-b with his Dlord and then decide to MSS the otherwise regular squad leader that had pistol+CCW instead of a bolter. What with having two Doomscythes tearing up everything with their silly beam I never even thought to question him on that minor thing.

MSS is not the only thing often played incorrectly. I've seen Trazyn used in many "clever" ways that definitely are not supported by the rules.

 happygolucky wrote:
Now against your Necrons I know if you take MSS, my FDP can never go near them they will have to go for your tanks, but what after that? just Vector strike them? seems a waste of points tbh, so how to take them out? as I have already said im just gonna have to roll a ton of shooting attacks and pray your lords drop and stay down, so no real tactical thinking just need to pray for lucky rolling... oh so fun...

So avoiding a SINGLE model in an opponents army makes your FDP effectively useless? You also have a strange definition of tactics. Tactics specifically is the process of analyzing your opponent's force and applying the correct response to deal with the threat presented. It is thinking and adapting and dealing with new situations as they arise. It is planning up front that your FDP will deal with units A, B and C, and then finding out that A has a piece of wargear that makes melee with it a dangerous prospect and shooting at that unit instead. By making that decision you are performing "real tactical thinking".

I just have little time for players who obsess and whine over the fact that ONE unit in their army can't take on ONE unit in the opponent's army and then acts as if the whole game is pointless to play then. Such extreme catastrophisizing is just pointless, because you both have FULL armies. So your FDP can go after and attack every part of your opponent's army except for the Lord with the MSS. Meanwhile every other unit in your army can shoot the bejeebus out of the Lord instead and deal with the threat while your FDP is off crunching other units. How is this so catastrophic and how is this going to ruin a game? It just makes zero sense to me.

And yes I have 7 different chaos themed armies, which all have some kind fo daemon prince or other killing melee HQ options. I just don't charge them solo into a model that can cause them to kill themselves when I don't need to do so...

Skriker

As someone who has a CD army and regularly plays against a Necron opponent, I can say that MSS can potentially neuter a CD army if every character has them (as the OP indicated). I honestly don't blame his opponent for not wanting to run that army against him, because if the main source of damage is tied up in the FDPs, they just got negated if the OP is putting the MSS bearer up front to actually get in BTB from the charge (otherwise, as somebody already said, make Necron player resolve MSS first before challenges are issued when the MC charges).

Exactly, Skriker. What's the point of playing if you want to run the same list the same way every time? Accept that you'll come across counters to ONE of your trump cards once in a while. Then you can actually appreciate a true challenge and try to adapt. Then you feel even better when you do overcome such a a list.

Or is 40k now a WAAC ordeal with one "real" list per codex?

Yeah, it's totally a WAAC move to decline playing a game where he expects to have zero fun. He should absolutely donate a few hours of his life to make the Necron player happy. Good point.

If all of the Daemon List's killing power is in a few beatstick characters, that isn't good list design. A good cc squad will mop up Necrons in CC just fine.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If all of the Daemon List's killing power is in a few beatstick characters, that isn't good list design. A good cc squad will mop up Necrons in CC just fine.

An he said he'd run a different list, just not that one.
No one is defending the list.

ClassicCarraway wrote:As someone who has a CD army and regularly plays against a Necron opponent, I can say that MSS can potentially neuter a CD army if every character has them (as the OP indicated). I honestly don't blame his opponent for not wanting to run that army against him, because if the main source of damage is tied up in the FDPs, they just got negated if the OP is putting the MSS bearer up front to actually get in BTB from the charge (otherwise, as somebody already said, make Necron player resolve MSS first before challenges are issued when the MC charges).

rigeld2 wrote:
An he said he'd run a different list, just not that one.
No one is defending the list.

Emphasis mine in the first quote.

My response was to the emphasized part in the initial quote provided in this post.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Exactly, Skriker. What's the point of playing if you want to run the same list the same way every time? Accept that you'll come across counters to ONE of your trump cards once in a while. Then you can actually appreciate a true challenge and try to adapt. Then you feel even better when you do overcome such a a list.

Its not the fact that a counter can trump a list (this was an experiment and I just wanted to throw stuff out to gain experience what they do particularly well and what they don't do so well in) I don't mind losing, as I have said multiple times.

However this is not a counter to one list nor one unit.

I play mainly CSM (and Orks) and the majority of my Codex's is CC orientated, therefore is doesn't just counter one unit in my codex, it counters the majortiy of units in my codex is why I get worked up about it, to know I am forced to resort to the usual shooty options I usually play in order to compete against his army loadout when I like experimenting with ideas puts my enjoyment down for 40k.

Anyway we found out on the weekend that the OP did not really need MSS, mainly because he fought our 'Nid player and he passed his MSS tests, but his MC were still killed off through the Warscythe of the Lords (and he got slay the warlord from that method as well).

Just goes to show that he doesn't really need it but just wanted it, to make sure my FDP should not do anything against him.

Anyho me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

And so this case is now resolved closed between me and the OP.

 jy2 wrote:

JPong wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

If what you are saying is true than yes. Perhaps not with intent to cheat however. They do get to use your weapons against you however. So they can use your force weapon activation or black mace or whatever else you may have.

They don't get the +D6 daemon weapon attacks with the Black Mace. They do get the Fleshbane and Toughness test, however.

Might be a stupid question has I dont have any codexes infront of me...
but why would you not get the D6 attacks from the black mace? doesnt MSS say that you use their weapons and all their benefits?

Because they don't actually make any attacks, they just hit their unit d3 times. The Daemon Weapon rule grants extra attacks, the Mindshackle hits are instead of attacking.

thanks

 happygolucky wrote:

Anyhow me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

This is a response to the emphasised section. While it may be case closed, I would like to make it known that I have always ran lists with Lords up the front of my units with WS/SW/MSS/RO, as Happy knows.
Since the dex dropped in 5th Edition.
And he still bitches that I Tailor my lists.

 happygolucky wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Exactly, Skriker. What's the point of playing if you want to run the same list the same way every time? Accept that you'll come across counters to ONE of your trump cards once in a while. Then you can actually appreciate a true challenge and try to adapt. Then you feel even better when you do overcome such a a list.

Its not the fact that a counter can trump a list (this was an experiment and I just wanted to throw stuff out to gain experience what they do particularly well and what they don't do so well in) I don't mind losing, as I have said multiple times.

However this is not a counter to one list nor one unit.

I play mainly CSM (and Orks) and the majority of my Codex's is CC orientated, therefore is doesn't just counter one unit in my codex, it counters the majortiy of units in my codex is why I get worked up about it, to know I am forced to resort to the usual shooty options I usually play in order to compete against his army loadout when I like experimenting with ideas puts my enjoyment down for 40k.

Anyway we found out on the weekend that the OP did not really need MSS, mainly because he fought our 'Nid player and he passed his MSS tests, but his MC were still killed off through the Warscythe of the Lords (and he got slay the warlord from that method as well).

Just goes to show that he doesn't really need it but just wanted it, to make sure my FDP should not do anything against him.

Anyho me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

And so this case is now resolved closed between me and the OP.

First, I'll give you merit for your thoughts, people really ought to express that to each other more. None of us are 100% wrong or right here.

Have you tried driving a mob of 30+ Boyz or 30+ Gaunts brood into a MSS unit? Hordes will generally fare much better against MSS, since sheer weight of numbers will water down the potency of MSS and there'll be plenty of others to bring some hurt. That said, there are ways this will not work, including a number of Tesla shots from that nearby immortal squad, but in terms of simply the one with MSS and any squad he's attached to vs. the horde, you've much better chance of success.

I would not turn down a Necron player purely because they've included them, nor would it really hamper my efforts, but mother of christ are they one of the dumbest rules ever to be thought up.

They suck the life and fun out of the game completely when that dude you spent hours and hours painting and prepping has a huge chance to almost auto-die or do nothing for a turn at the very least. They make no sense; of all the times 'look out sir!' would seem realistic, why not with these? Why does it happen at the I10 step in a Codex where the general gist is that everything has absurdly low initiative?

They're just more fuel on the blazing fire that is the crappiness of generic Imperial CC characters with few exceptions. I'd definitely say for their absurd price and availability to even lesser Lords, they'r e way too overpowered before you even consider how effective they are, they should at most be around 20% effective unless they receive a mass cost increase.

I would have to agree with KommisarKiln. As a necron player, hordes of wimpy units will wear down anyone running MSS. Also people I've played against have been smart enough to direct their CC units to my own scoring units away from my lord, concentrating on wiping those out while using lots of gunfire to focus fire down my lord where possible.

Really, the Lord and Overlord aren't that great in CC. It's the weargear that makes them good, and hordes of smaller units will just win in weight of numbers as the lacklustre WS starts to show through.

Played against a cron player this weekend that had MSS on his hq.

Guess what, I did not attack that squad with my beatstick, I killed him with other means.

Crons are terrible in CC (other than wraiths, but you can dakka them down, they have no WBB and its only a 3+).

I hate to say it, but its not that hard - what is hard, is players who are not used to having to use strategy with their otherwise incredibly powerful beatstick.

My apologies if this is an unpopular view - but this has been echoed many times in this thread - use your brain not your deathstar - the most dangerous unit in any army is the player.

I will rant on here - to me, this is a symptom of people who are always looking for "whats the best army" or "whats the best ally" or "whats the best combo"."what hq can roll face!".

I learned 40k with arguably one of the worst armies at the time (I started with tau in 5th edition....and competed with them - yeah, it was brutal). But if you can actually learn to play the game, and think for yourself, then once you get a better army, you will be amazed at how much of a better player (my next army was incredibly easy after cutting my teeth with tau in 5th).

Are MSS nasty....sure, I avoid getting into CC with them if I can, or I deliberately send a junk unit to just tie them up. Come on guys, you are better than this thread - you owe it to yourself to invest in becoming a better player.
You are worth it.
(end rant).

Yeah, sorry. I must be a bad player. Sorry I suck so much, I'll try not to suck next time.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, sorry. I must be a bad player. Sorry I suck so much, I'll try not to suck next time.

I was being serious. You sir are not.

But read the actual advice by the players who are trying to give actual sincere feedback, it will make you a better player.

Or tell you what, get the necron codex, proxy up a list, and learn them. Nothing helps you learn how to beat an army better than by playing them.

Now, if you want to continue to be silly and trite....well, then perhaps I can't dispute your self assessment.