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Let's see
Court lord with MSS scythe and semi is 75 and it's a 1 wound t5 2up model or add more points to add an orb certainly not cheap.
A overlord with same kit is 130, things to remember is nither option has any form of shooting low initiative no dedicated transport(except command barge for over lord) so postition attackers so not in base contact with the bearer and the MSS is not so useful.
Yes you can get them an ark at a ton of points yes you can add extra lords into the unit for more MSS but then the little 15pt upgrade costs a lot more to be useful and points should be spent on other things. I'm more worried at facing the pokeball as it ignores all saves and eternal warrior, because at base most cc characters have a good save/invun and a couple of hits is unlikely to trouble them (not impossible but unlikely) while the rest of there unit kills necrons, forces leadership and sweeps them away.
Can they be annoying? yes
Are they op? no

MSS really do annoy me, especially as I really ony play games with a friend who absolutely loves the things, as well as annihalation barges. I tend to play IG allied with SM so it always ends up with my captain/chapter master getting decimated as soon as they enter combat.

But then it doesnt matter so much after 100 lasguns start firing volleys in the next turn

Makumba wrote:
I have a question , when a csm DP hits himself with a darkmace does the mace ID test aoe spread to the csm units or to the necron ones ?

i believe the dark mace specifies enemy models, which mean it goes against the necrons, even if the mace is being controlled by MSS

 Jayden63 wrote:
But its not a leadership test. Its a test on 3D6 which even in a best case situation still fails 50ish % of the time.

Its 15 point piece of wargear that completely nerfs 275 points of Logan Grimnar. In fact its worse than that because not only does he strike himself, the necron lord still gets to swing with all of its weapons. Good weapons at that. Thus pretty much saying that Logan has a 50% chance of just laying down and dying just for trying to do his job.

Nobody would probably have an issue with MSS if they didn't effect HQ options. Sure, control a sargent/grunt what ever. But when your expensive HQs - many whos only function is CC suddenly are not allowed to do their job half the time by a piece of wargear a fraction of their points costs. It rubs people the wrong way.

Here is a simple solution: Don't charge your uber character into the model with MSS. How hard is that? Shoot the crap out of it instead. Charge in a different unit instead of your uber character. Not as if the necron lord is a CC combat god to begin with. It is no different than not letting howling banshees charge you or not letting an enemy's heavy weapons get an easy shot at the side of your tank. If a single character with a 15 point piece of wargear that only has an effect if your uber model is in base contact with it in melee is completely ruining your ability to succeed with your army then perhaps you should find a different hobby, because it isn't all that hard to avoid those conditions in a game and still win the game just fine.

Also kind of funny to hear complaints of poor Logan Grimnar being made useless by a 15 point piece of wargear he needs to be in base contact with the holder to be affected by. JoWW is FAR more ludicrous in its abilities on the table and can be used at range as well.

Skriker

To be honest, I could understand if I was running the MSS off of a DLord surrounded by Wraiths, who was hunting the Daemons, but Im not.

Im running them off of Court Lords loaded out as the post atop this page + a Res Orb (pricey lifeline for my shooting bricks). I believe my friend objects to them on the grounds that they stand between his Beatstick units and my amazingly squishy Warriors, stopping them being completely levelled in a matter of seconds.

But my counter to that is how less fair is it than a GK Termie with a Halberd ID'ing a non-Slaanesh Chaos Lord who costs more than 3x as many points?

I would also like to point out, he does not run a 'circus' list, as far as I am aware, this is the first list he has ran with 3 Flying daemons in it.

The way I see it is that if you want to play him that much, and you think that taking this single upgrade will make him unhappy, don't take it. Unless its competitive play, the point of the game is for both players to have fun and if he isn't and you can change that then you should. If you don't think its fair that he is so unhappy with them, explain to him that they are fair (Which I disagree with, I dislike the whole concept itself because it's simply not fun to me) and if he still won't understand then you have to either change the list or play someone different. I dislike someone playing more then 2 flyers/riptides/wraithknights/dreadknights and in a friendly game where I had a choice, I would play someone else. Its not because I dislike the player, but because I think the game wont be fun. He is entitled to choose what/who he plays, and if you want to play him, then you have to meet his criteria. I know it sounds like your doing the work, and I am probably biased because I don't like the concept of MSS (I've seen a friends swarmlord insta kill himself and a chaos lord slaughter his own unit. Doesn't seem right to me) but that's how it is.

Look at it from a Necron point of view, which I am, all of our special named characters will basically die in CC and they dont have MSS(Aside from Trazyn), and if the survive only 1 really hits that hard in a challenge, Vargard Obyron, and like a destroyer lord doesnt have an invul and will be hitting last.

With the recent release of certain MC's MSS is about as close as a Necron can get sometimes to killing things when shooting just wont do.

I don't have anything against not taking them, this is the case scenario of "I've got 3 Flying Daemons, but I will make a different list if you include Mindshackles in you Necron list, or demand you use an entirely different Army ".

I am not against bringing a list without them, but not when I need them. Such as, when there are 3 FDPs across the board from me, expect me to have all my Lords armed with MSS.

The thing is - you're not just countering his FDPs with them, you're negating them for no loss (essentially). They're wasted points for him because he can't use them on your warrior blobs. Why waste the points? He has a less than 50% chance of swinging on his own - most of the time he will lose his DP without rolling more than invul saves.

The problem as I see it is that the Necrons will get absolutely levelled in CC without MSS.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem as I see it is that the Necrons will get absolutely levelled in CC without MSS.

Thank you.

And people do seem to forget that it isn't a guaranteed result that you are hitting yourself

it is 50% or higher . Considering how much harder to get in to melee , melee units are and how good a melee unit is to be in melee , this means there is a 50% or higher chance to kill any HQ in melee with necron . for 15pts.

Makumba wrote:
it is 50% or higher . Considering how much harder to get in to melee , melee units are and how good a melee unit is to be in melee , this means there is a 50% or higher chance to kill any HQ in melee with necron . for 15pts.

Sadly, that is the case. However, the Necrons have no other options. It's literally 1) run an OP piece of wargear hated by everyone or 2) die a horrible death that makes the game unfun for everyone.

Shrug.

But this is sixth edition. Melee is dead anyway, so who cares? Fifteen points wasted unless you want to be hypocritical in that claim.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But this is sixth edition. Melee is dead anyway, so who cares? Fifteen points wasted unless you want to be hypocritical in that claim.

I don't believe melee is dead. Some others do, perhaps, but I am willing to spend 15 points to ensure that I am protected from it, even if the internet thinks it's dead.

After eldar and demon codex releases the melee is strong for a very narrow choice of armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An easier fix would be it would work on mc's on a ld test of 2d6 represnting the need of more scarabs to shackle the mind of the target

Sounds like the real problem with this piece of wargear is the model being forced to hit itself. Maybe if it just negated the models attack for the turn instead. That would still be very powerful, but nothing as bad as forcing Mephiston to hit himself with his force sword and then blowing that extra force point to make him ID himself, or the Swarmlord for that matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But this is sixth edition. Melee is dead anyway, so who cares? Fifteen points wasted unless you want to be hypocritical in that claim.

But what are Tyranids supposed to do? They have horrible armor pen with ranged weapons and their ranged troops are incredibly easy to kill. Genestealer? snicker.

Maybe when the new codex comes out they will have a decent counter. They don't now.

I don't think it's unreasonable that a heavily shooting-based army is weaker in close combat.

Being able to destroy almost any close combat based character, as well as dominating the shooting game, is a bit unreasonable.

 Hedgehog wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable that a heavily shooting-based army is weaker in close combat.

Being able to destroy almost any close combat based character, as well as dominating the shooting game, is a bit unreasonable.

Heavily shooting based? They have, like, 2 guns over 24" of range with one singe unit that gets a Str 9 gun and it can't move or it becomes Str 7, and is open-topped AV11 (13 against the first few shots). Their shooting is strong, but not Tau-strong.

So why should they have a Tau weakness?

the Tau weakness isn't even a weakness what with Supporting Fire, and the sheer numbers of dice you have to tank before you hit CC...

Also, heavy destroyers exist XD

they get lascannon equivalent guns

Heavy Destroyers get a single lascannon for sixty five points apiece. Any other army spending 65 points for 1 lascannon would be whining till the blood comes out their throats at that!

Ah, yes, the Heavy Destroyer. Such a buff to Necron shooting that it's ubiquitous in every list, and is feared across the galaxy for its mediocre tank-killing power.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heavy Destroyers get a single lascannon for sixty five points apiece. Any other army spending 65 points for 1 lascannon would be whining till the blood comes out their throats at that!

Predators are 100 points for a TL lascannon. So... pretty sure you're wrong?
And it's 60 points.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heavy Destroyers get a single lascannon for sixty five points apiece. Any other army spending 65 points for 1 lascannon would be whining till the blood comes out their throats at that!

Predators are 100 points for a TL lascannon. So... pretty sure you're wrong?
And it's 60 points.

Fielding lots of predators lately. rigeld? Or is it so good that some other players have been using it a lot?

Also the comparison is flawed, because as a vehicle the Predator is more survivable in some ways and less so in others (although only marginally), and is slightly more mobile. So you're paying for things other than the weapons system.

The only thing that irks me about this whole post are the people demanding that the OP change his list to suit his opponent. I'd go as far as to let my opponent tailor against me (I do this when testing lists out anyway) but I wouldn't change what I'm playing in specific ways as desired by my opponent. Even in a friendly game, people are entitled to play the army they want. Whether or not someone will play you is a different matter, as will whether or not you will win; but I would never ask my opponent to change his list because I didn't like a specific wargear item. I used to play 2 necron players almost exclusively, and yeah MSS sucked. But I would never dream of asking my opponent to take MSS, or wave serpents, or anything else out of his list right before a game.

Mate, obviously you don't get the point.

You already know I don't think Necrons are OP or any ridiculous claim that other posters think, but you know that that is the only piece of Wargear I think is broken in your codex.

The problem comes in two portions:

A) Its is the ultimate counter for your weakness in your army, you know biggest your weakness is your Int value, and I wouldn't have had such a big problem if it "stalled" my characters as you proclaim, if it did I would be happy as it meant that would be a challenge, but stalling would be something like I would not be able to attack your units, MSS does not do that, MSS KILLS my unit or heavily damages it to the point that its just waiting for a voice over of "FINSH HIM" from that guy in Mortal Combat which leads me to the next portion...

B) Its not the fact that just a regular lord has MSS

Its not the fact that just a regular lord has a warscythe

Its not the fact that just a regular lord has a 2+ Sv

Its the fact it has ALL of it put together that makes it ridiculous, and if it was just your Overlord I wouldn't have a problem with that either (after all HQ's are supposed to be hard as nails right?) its that fact that it gets spammed on a court of Lords that makes it ridiculous imo, and in game terms your lords are the equivalent to sergeants the way you use them, which gets tedious.

Secondly, you know I do not play competitive (which I will credit you on as you have mentioned that), I even take Warp Talons for pete's sake! (and I am using Helldrakes less and less now as Im getting bored of them tbh) this list I have never tried out (I made it yesterday), and I just wanted to experiment with cultists and FDP and see what it actually did, and because everyone up at the FLGS is using a lot of bugs (my slang for 'Nids) so I thought it would be a bit of nostalgia and fun to bring back the DP (since I only very occasionally played them when the new codex came out as I wanted to try out fresh things for a new codex).

Now against your Necrons I know if you take MSS, my FDP can never go near them they will have to go for your tanks, but what after that? just Vector strike them? seems a waste of points tbh, so how to take them out? as I have already said im just gonna have to roll a ton of shooting attacks and pray your lords drop and stay down, so no real tactical thinking just need to pray for lucky rolling... oh so fun...

Third: I never demanded that you use your Marines; you wanted to know why FDP were "so feared" (according to Dakka) the simple fact of the matter is you wont find that challenge or why they are "so feared" if you run MSS because they will do nothing to your army except kill themselves, you wont see any sort of challenge hence why I suggested you use your Marines, because then you will find why they are supposedly such a challenge to fight against, you then refused so I then said I would change up the army because most of the army will not do much against you since there just a few lascannons and Autoguns.

the whole "you need MSS" that you keep on saying (as you said in that conversation) is ridiculous if that is the case then I need my Helldrakes, both pieces do extremely well for the table for what they do however I am using at least 1 Helldrake or none in my lists now as you know I've grown tired of what they do and I rather have other things now in anyway, so do you "need" them, or do you "want them?

Like I say I don't have a problem with your army or codex, just that piece of Wargear because it does way too much for its points, obviously I've struck a nerve here so I was just clarifying everything up but since you already have the Dakka bandwagon calling me WAAC (Anon or not an insult is still an insult), then you may as well forget the sodding game then, after all I only wanted to play one game of 40k anyway against a Tyranid player, as you know im growing less interest in 40k anyways.

Lastly I will just leave this here as your best "advice" you gave me in the same conversation:



... yeah good advice there ...

What I would do about MSS is charge the Warrior blob with a crapload of little gribblies, such as Plaguebearers or nurgle zombies or even a large CSM squad.

Then, once the Lord is already in B2B with a random marine who is more likely to survive against his own attacks than not, charge with the huge gribbly and mop up.

Right, what about the Dlord with MSS who charges you along with his 6 Canoptic Wraiths? Then I just get to think about how much fun I am having while I remove my models.

This is starting to sound like an echo chamber where Necron players reassure each other that really, they aren't being unsporting at all by using MSS.

15 Points to reliably kill the warlord I HAVE to take (200 points worth) to run my army? What am I supposed to do? Avoid it? Kill a unit of 6 wraiths plus a d-lord before they charge something? Lol right. I have to close with you to win, and this means that if I do, I loose. It's nearly an auto-win button. And it IS an auto Slay The Warlord button.

 sierra 1247 wrote:
MSS really do annoy me, especially as I really ony play games with a friend who absolutely loves the things, as well as annihalation barges. I tend to play IG allied with SM so it always ends up with my captain/chapter master getting decimated as soon as they enter combat.

But then it doesnt matter so much after 100 lasguns start firing volleys in the next turn

I do basically the same thing, except a Leman Russ to level the accompanying warriors and a vet squad packed with plasma or melta popping out from some hiding spot within charge range. Fire with the Russ first if the warriors are in front, and fire with vets first if it's a 2+ overlord shielding the warriors from the battle cannon blast. And since I usually use shotgun/melta vets, I can kill/wound the overlord and whittle down the warriors before they even overwatch. In fact, I issue the challenge so only my sarge dies to the giant 'corn, and I generally tie combat or win by 1 or 2 (not that they're retreating anytime soon). Even with-- nay, especially with-- MSS lords/overlords, I can easily bog down a rather weakened squad before the next squad in line steps up.

It's true that MSS is overpowered. It's stupid good, it's incredible, it's like the Atom Bomb of 40k if you must think so.

It's also the Necrons' only hope of not simply folding in CC and basically giving up if the enemy gets there. It sucks that Ward saw fit only to give us an OP CC defense or not at all.