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So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!

I can give that a run - sort of saves painting time as I have to get things done on a limited amount of time.

Left to paint/finish off then...

2nd Dakka Flyrant (at about 60%)
Barbed Hierodule (at about 75%)
10 Termagants. (lol, I hate termagants so much)

Or perhaps 3 Ripper Swarms instead of those 10 Termagants...

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!

I think he was recommending a Dakka Flyrant rather than a Close combat one. He can probably give better advice than me because he has more experience with the Barbed Haridule.

That would really depend on the person and his local meta. Whereas I generally advocate dakka flyrants as the best all-purpose Tyranid unit, if he feels that the reaper flyrant is more necessary to deal with the armies in his locale, then that's really up to him. But 3 dakka flyrants and a barbed hierodule do give you pretty good board control.

As it stands I could, at a pinch pull off the LW/BS and replace with Twin Devourers....but....really...

Really I'm waiting to get hold of a pair of Hive Tyrant wings and a Hive Tyrant torso so I can build my last Flyrant. Currently have the legs, head and tail spare from the kit....

So if any 'nid players really want to help out I'd not say no. Wings and a Torso are a pain to find as I need both rather than one or the other.

I also like the assassin as he's something of a unique twist. Most people take Dakka - which can beat up small units on its own but to be frank most tooled up SM/CSM/etc character types will do a dirty on a Flyrant. Sure, he's AP 2 but lacks trimmings, only has his base attacks and no fancy shenanigans. The Assassin Flyrant has much higher initiative and the potential for ID on him.

Iechine! I like...my big concern with that list though is the Rippers. I keep wanting to take them myself by the realisation that S6 will ID them to comical effect. With the amount of S6 flamers or ranged multishot S6+ weapons....I almost feel they're a horrible weakness in themselves.

The Carnifexes look promising though...I don't have that many lone fexes myself so my varaint of the list would be say, 2 broods of termagants?

 Iechine wrote:
I like them because they dont run and they are really easy to hide with such a low profile. Ive just gotten tired of Gants not carrying their weight through the end game when things get messy. You're right about the ID weakness, but consider that the alternative is roughly 4x10 units of Termagants that have to walk up the field AND not flee when out of synapse.

I need to buy two more Carnifexes, which I guess Ill do tomorrow. I think if I played it Id constantly be casting dominion to keep everyone corralled.

I suppose it depends largely on the local meta - if you know there's not a lot of S6+ floating around it's ok...but here? Well, it's a mostly SMs with other armies fielding things like Vindicators, S6 flame templates or blast templates galore.

Right. Overhaul time, inspired by different thoughts and also by Iechine's strange experiment!

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

2 Biovores

It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...

And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

Biovore
Trygon - Toxin Sacs, Regeneration

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

tag8833 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...
And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?

This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

In what way do you feel a trygon would benefit you more than a Dakkafex or a Tyrrannofex? Is it an attempt to find a middle ground between the two?

Faster. Higher WS so combined with Paroxysm a Trygon can become a royal pain in the arse for any elite or small infantry unit. Less firepower but more attacks and higher initiative as well - I always feel that Dakkafexes are too squishy on their lonesome and I find Tyrannofexes...well..interesting. Very short ranged, forced to advance and horrendously vulnerable to being tarpitted in assault (as a Tyranid player I am fully aware of this trick - it's how I deal with annoying things - just leave a gaunt blob with them, that's at least 3-4 combat phases where whatever it is is stuck in a gaunt blob unless they commit further units to it...). I really don't feel a Tyrannofex offers much that the list doesn't already have. Hey look, a big thing with incredibly short ranged firepower.

Plus the fact that there's an option to skip the upgrades and go for a Trygon Prime though 6 extra shots really does not seem worth the points hike (literally, the only difference is Synapse - which I am not shy of and higher base Ld - I suppose if someone really wanted to Mind War it?) Those extra six shots do not compare to toxin sacs and regen - plus the fact that the Assassin Tyrant is gone...I do feel I need something I can reliably throw at troublesome monstrous creatures like Wraithknights and Riptides - a multiple attacking, high initiative and WS Trygon with poisoned attacks seems far more reliable there than throwing a Tyrant with a LW/Bonesword or Reaper and hoping for a 6 to ID the thing....

Also, the fact I conveniently already have a Trygon painted probably helps there as well. I don't fancy my chances of getting a T-fex done in my spare time and really don't want to continue painting the dakkafexes til I'm in the right mood for them.

 SHUPPET wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:



This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)

On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.

Generally I take the Infiltrate option, simply because it lets 4 units get further across the field to start with. Useful for setting up Synapse waypoints, useful for getting the shorter ranged aspects closer or for getting the flyers closer so their turn 1 flight can get them behind some of the enemy to start pinging rear armour or tastier small units.

Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.

If they turtle MoA has uses for delivering up to 4 units via outflank - to be perfectly frank I could simply send 2 units along - the Zoey acting as a babysitter (and if one of the Zoeys gets Psychic Scream it will help get him closer to use it) and the gaunts.

I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.

Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.

Find where I said I was going to ever take Stealers. Please. Go on. I'll wait.

Hint - nowhere.

Stealers are probably the one unit I won't take, simply because anything with bolters/shuriken catapults/frag missiles/etc will just delete them off the table with minimal effort. Unless they are outflanking they generally aren't worth the points put in and even then outflanking Stealers seems horrendously redundant as the points spent on them is wasted for what we need. Tyranids like cheap, small units. Why? Because we fething adore using multiple force org charts to unlock even more of our better units.

I'd never get Stealers just to infiltrate and go to ground on a back line objective. If anything you can acheive the same with Tyranid Warriors with a Barbed Strangler for LESS points with more reliability and better survivability. Not to mention the added bonus of Synapse....or the 36 inch range pinning weapon.

 Iechine wrote:
Ive been using Warriors a lot since the Codex came out. It tends towards cost, if my list is tight I will drop gants and a zoey to pop in a Warrior brood. They're just harder to get rid of synapse wise.

If there are spare points, then they usually get rending claws and 1 LW/BS warrior with scytals. Unless their initiative is higher, many players dont like treading near a unit like that, especially MC's.

My general issue with warriors is that their performance is very much dependant on the local meta.

My local meta? Imperial Knights, 3 SM players who field Vindicators, 2 CSM players who do the same, a Tau player who loves his hammerheads, an Adepta Soritas player of triple Exorcist and a daemon player who tends to run triple soulgrinder.

That is an awful lot of S8 firepower that gets sent my way. Now thing is, gaunts can spread out and Zoeys tend to pull the old Storm Shield trick of being annoyingly jinky with their invuln saves to survive a storm. But warriors...the few times I have played with them they've sort of just...exploded. Messily. Knights in particular are rough on them as there's very little they can do in return plus Paladins with mutliple S8 ordnance templates do a quick number on Warrior broods.

Actually, knights are just rough on 'nids in general. Incredibly difficult to crack open with our trust dakkafexes and flyrants and assaulting them with a Carnifex is tantamount to suicide - an I4 melee D-weapon hitting on 3s is just not cricket. Really, Knights are the one pain that I do not fancy...

And the local meta has several of the SM players murmuring more about them. Ew. Ironically my poor neglected Death Guard did just fine against Knights through objective snatching with Plague Marines... (Which is funny as my Death Guard were largely shelved due to me strictly not caring for the ZOMG SPAMDRAKES or the fact my planned Heldrake build put me back £50 a drake...)

In part my army is limited by the fact that I want to field things actually painted- I essentially have one good weekend of painting left along with whatever can be done during the next few weeks.

What is painted at the moment?

2 Flyrants - Twin devourers
Hive Tyrant - Scytals, LW & Bonesword
2 Tyrant Guard
Tyranid Prime - Twin Boneswords

30 Termagants
14 Hormagaunts
9 Genestealers - Scytals, Broodlord
6 Tyranid Warriors - 3 Deathspitters, 2 Rending Claws, 1 Venom Cannon

4 Zoanthropes
2 Venomthropes

3 Raveners - Rending Claws

3 Carnifexes - 2 x 2 Scytals, 1 Crushing Claws
Trygon

Scythed Hierodule

And what is currently at the point where a weekend of painting can get them done comfortably and within reasonable standards (i.e. not driving me to tears with boredom of painting flesh tones.)?

Flyrant -Twin Devourers
Tervigon

3 Ripper Swarms
2 Warriors - 1 Rending Claws, 1 Barbed Strangler

2 Biovores
Trygon

Barbed Hierodule

Now, I don't mention gaunts because a - I have 15 of the buggers at stages where I could whip them out in half a day and b - same with hormagaunts. Gaunts are also mindnumbingly dull to paint.

I don't even mention what I actually have....because there's rather a lot. I'll list things here for completion - not what they have or quanties, but just so people know what I could punish myself with.

Swarmlord conversion
Deathleaper conversion
Old One Eye
Footrant - Twin Devourers, HVC
Footrant - Scytals
3 LW Tyrant Guard
2 LW Tyrant Guard
2 Crushing Claws Tyrant Guard
1 Tyrant Guard

More Gaunts than I ever wanted - only 20 Devilgaunts though
Hormagaunts
Rippers
Genestealers (lots actually. For my shame. It's what happens when you buy 5 of the 5th edition Tyranid Assault brood boxes...)
Tyranid Warriors - some variety - Bunch of Deathspitters, bunch of devourers

2 Zoanthropes
5 Lictors

7 Raveners - Rending Claws
5 Scytal Raveners
Red Terror
3 Shrikes - Twin Boneswords
18 Gargoyles (really don't fancy these at the moment. I need to mass magnetise their bases)
2 Crones

1 Carnifex - 2 x Scytals
3 Carnifexes - Twin Devourers
2 Carnifexes - Twin Devourers
2 Carnifexes - Crushing Claws, HVCs
2 Carnifexes - Barbed Stranglers
5 Biovores
Tyrannofex - Acid Spray

Scythed Hierodule

Not a bad pool of things. Not including things unassembled. Note, I loathe Genestealer assembly. I hate them. Ruleswise they got gutted and assembly wise...ugh, fiddly little seperate legs!

But yeah, want to actually field something fully painted for a change...just to feel all fuzzy and proud. I could probably churn out a bunch this weekend but I'm trying to keep my paintload light - basing a Hierodule, the last highlights of a Flyrant and some Rippers and Biovores is not too rough for me to do.

I did, as a completely bizarre chain of though while helping a friend move realise I could do a sillier 1800 point army

Flyrant - Twin Devourers

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Venomthrope

Barbed Hierodule

Flyrant - Twin Devourers

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Scythed Hierodule

But then I realised that was definately not cricket.

Yep. Eldar and Tau are the reasons to take Warriors over Shrikes. SMS and the Wave Serpent's annoying S7 cover ignoring D6 shot weapon just delete Shrikes off the board with impunity. They pretty much account for anything in the Tyranid army that is cover reliant - so Lictors, Venomthropes, Shrikes, Genestealers (not hard, at this rate I reckon a water pistol accounts for Genestealers) all go poof when confronted with them. Whoever thought people needed respectable strength, mutliple shot, cover save ignoring weapons, eh?

Warriors have their own problems to be honest - the change to vehicles in 7th means that the high strength weapons are coming back in vogue (melta weapons and lascannons in particular) so our Warriors get to relive the joy of why no one took them through 5th in the first place. Really, that EW nerf on Synapse from 4th to 5th was the deathknell for warriors as a whole.

 SHUPPET wrote:
It sucks for Warriors, EW would be great for them. However the reason they are picked now and not in 5E codex, in 5E we had many good Synapse creatures. Flyrants, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Swarmlord, Shellrants, Tyranid Prime.

In 6E, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these was given a massive nerf. Flyrants got off the easiest. The bulk of the rest are complete trash tier. This is what makes Warriors playable. Terrible codex writing.

Just so I'm keeping up here - exactly how are Warriors better than Shrikes against Eldar or Tau, other than saving you the points of a Termagant squad of course?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the whole S8 weapons counter Warriors thing is a bit Of a mmyth. S8 blasts do. For 180 pts, 6 Warriors take as many Melta hits to kill as a Tyrannofex for the same price. Melta and Lascannons do not invalidate your Warriors, you are no worse off than had you taken almost any of our other MCs. The real issue is S8+ blasts who will wipe and entire squad in a shot. People need to actually think about why models are bad and not just regurgitate trash.

And people need to stop making this into a personal crusade against others.

Forr the record, the vehicle changes mean that there is one S8+ blast weapon coming back with some flavour over here. Vindicator. The Demolisher, with its AP 2 and the fact blasts no longer halve against vehicles if the centre drifts means that the Demolisher is perfect for just deleting..well...anything. A S10, AP2 large blast that rerolls to pen due to Ordnance? Yikes. S8+ blasts are not a rarity to find either and never have been.

The difference against Eldar and Tau? That 4+ save. You may get across the field quicker but both Eldar and Warriors turn overwatch into pain - either through Divination or through sheer volume of fire for overwatch as well as other upgrades. Scoff against the 4+ save all you like, but 50% is better than 33.3%.

Warriors are Troops - thus have objective secured. Shrikes are Fast Attack - their mobility is hampered by the fact they cannot reliably contest or deny objectives. You mentioned your love of Onslaught and using MoA to your advantage - Warriors are prime targets for these as it lets them advance more effectively and they CAN deny objectives straight out. Objective Secured is very, very important. And it's probably the reason MSU troops are coming back in fashion as just one survivor can deny all the Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support in the world from claiming an objective or even contesting it. Even small warrior broods can contribute through securing objectives in a far more reliable fashion than anything else.

Not to mention the fact that pinning is also incredibly potent in this edition. Pinned units = No Overwatch. A barebones warrior unit with a barbed strangler is gloriously cheap and provides a 3 foot range to pin things in - helping the units that advance a fair bit more. I should imagine that putting ranged weapons on Shrikes is something of a waste of their potential, much as melee weapons on a majority unit of warriors can be seen as such (oh 4th ed, I miss you and your Leaping Warriors) and most configurations we've seen in here have featured melee upgrades - making the cost of shrikes even more so.

More points, a worse save (that can be denied by bolter/shruicat fire) and no Objective Secured.

Now, Shrikes have their uses. But against two armies with an abundance of AP 5 weapons as well as high strength, multiple shot cover ignoring weapons Shrikes are going to be more a liability. You may think you need them for their mobility - against Tau and Eldar? Your mobility is a joke. Jet Packs, Jet Bikes and Fast Skimmers will see to that. Oh, forgot to mention, these Fast Skimmers with the Eldar are the same ones that come with a cover ignoring multishot weapon. The jet units all come bristling with AP 5 or better weaponry. You're not going to be hiding from those with cover hopping for LoS either.

True, in 5E we had very, very good synapse options. Tervigons were clearly broken and got balanced, Flyrants are much on par with what we have now (which I dare say got BETTER in 6th and 7th ed. than their 5th ed. counterparts), Zoeys suffered from the loss of Spores, the Swarmlord...meh. Wasn't too fond of him in the first place. The Prime suffered as well.

But the lost of EW also hurt in the era of spammed missile launchers and abundance force, melta, las-plas. Don't forget, EW didn't just apply to warriors but also to anything within Synapse range. It was not...pleasant.

But Objective Secured is the main thing warriors have going for them over Shrikes. The ability to park yourself on an objective, even if only with one straggler and completely deny it to all bar enemy troops is somewhat important in a game where of the two 'types' of missions there are over 50% of them are objective focused.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Thought I'd share this here:

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47157/first-knights-maelstrom-mission

Also, lovely to see Knights.

I feel that Maelstrom missions lean more to our favour than they do for Knights - simply because we have objective secured while they do not - doubly so with Skyblight gargoyles - and 50% of the random objectives we roll are Secure X. But also helped to see that they were tough...

Knights - too hard for us to kill reliably at range and far too risky to go into melee with (Because that D weapon hurts.) Was it through mass HP stripping? Also, did the Electroshock have significant impact?

omerakk wrote:

Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).

Good luck.

Indeed I am! I love the way it looks.
Plus, it was given to me as a birthday gift, so I would feel like a real twatwaffle if I didn't use it.

Could have been worse. You could have been given Pyrovores....wait, mind you, they do make rather good Biovores, don't they?

Actually, wait, Harus are surprisingly good in that anti-armour big critter role...only problem is our ever crowded elites slot. As usual.

Have you had much joy with him? (I feel it's a him. I want to call him Harry.)

Different folks have different tastes. Let's leave it at that. I'm still playing with ideas to make my weekend of painting interesting.

Now, there is the following options with the currently floating poiints...

Drop the Hive Tyrant (or Trygon) and 2 Zoanthropes.
Get 2 Dakkafexes and have 30 points spare.

I'd lose a total of 6 Warp Charges (putting me on 8 before the dice roll) and would lose some of the synapse overlap.

The return, if I get onlsaught you won't scream angrily at me for 'wasting' it. Ditto for MoA.

Actually, I might go with that. Though I hope you realise my hatred for you burns as I paint the mass of fleshy tones that are 2 carnifexes. (So...much...bone....maybe I could be lazy and paint my converted 3rd ed carnifexes...yeah...they're more armour than skin!)

 SHUPPET wrote:
Paint frowns on the Carnifexes carapace to represent that

Drop the Trygon IMO. Quick question, what exactly is it that you want it for? From there it's easier to tell whether you need to keep it or whether something could do it's job better.

Wraithknight/Riptide discouragement. Also, small squad deterrent. Trygons with toxin will eat those, they will eat command squads, terminator squads (apart from TH/SS) or any other small, armoured squads that could prove annoying. I5 is mighty handy along with WS 5 for that.

 jy2 wrote:

Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.

Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.

This. All this.

The Tyranid psychic powers aren't to be sniffed at. The fact ALL our Psykers got one for free because of the fact we only use one Discipline and that one power is the one we had to make a choice to take before is a huge boon. Dominion for free?

Not to mention that Witchfire powers do not stop you shooting/running in your shooting phase - which makes Zoeys more mobile and makes the dakka Flyrants even more terrifying should they get Warp Lance - you can Warp Lance a small squad with a blast template or a vehicle with the Lance itself and then open fire at another choice target in your shooting phase.

Zoeys...aren't aggressive. They're threats. They're an 18 inch bubble of 'Are you sure you want to park that vehicle there?" that a lot of people will respect and avoid, simply because...though the chances are low, they don't want to risk them. Against anything bar a Ork or SM transport a Zoey can make its points back easily with that one lucky hit. And people know it.

rigeld2 wrote:
One Lascannon/Krak wound suffered by a XXX unit is a YY point (minimum) loss.
Dakkafex 37.5
Tervigon 32.5
Warrior 30
Haruspex 32
Exocrine 34
Dakka Flyrant 57.5

However, you also have to account for how much it will affect the performance of that unit.

In all the above cases apart from the Warriors a Lascannon/Krak wound does nothing to hamper the effectiveness of the unit it is placed on. The loss of a single wound does not reduce the fire output of a dakka flyrant or fex, the spawning of a tervigon or the firepower of a exocrine.

But such a wound on a Warrior brood reduces the brood's overall effectiveness - it reduces their synapse footprint, reduces their fire output (potentially by a lot if you were unlucky enough to have the Barbed Strangler be the closes to the enemy) and can possibly take them off an objective for a turn (if you were only just within range).

Well. That scuppered plans.

Friend had serious family issues come up - so, being a friend I backburned the plans to paint. I can field an army consisting of things already painted - might not be ideal but would rather be there if he needed me to talk to than be too preoccupied and stressed out.

So, presented...

What will be attending - 1800 points, Lords of War allowed, charity tournament with the emphasis being on lighter lists rather than super competitive must win or Else.



Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

14 Termagants - Fleshborers
14 Termagants - Spinefists
5 Tyranid Warriors - 3 Deathspitters, 2 Rending Claws

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
2 Venomthropes

3 Raveners - Rending Claws

Trygon

Barbed Hierodule

- All painted, all within a single force organisation chart and generally enough for this week so I can be a friend.

Good Lord...

The Dimachaeron seems...horribly redundant in itself.

An entire page of special rules? Really now? Did it really need a special subtype that seems to conflict with its existing subtype's own rules?

Hey you, take a dangerous terrain check for leaping. Oh, wait, Monstrous Creatures have MTC so autopass. Yay foresight!

The fact every weapon seems to have to be a new weapon with a new paragraph of monstrously redundant special rules and AP values to ramp their cost - hey, let's make them all AP2 despite them being only on this monstrous creature with smash. That'll make the points totally worth it! Let's give them all these horribly awkward special rules with seemingly more dependant terms and conditions than a ponzi scheme!

The lack of Fearless on it as well...well, that's not going to sit pretty. Not only is it in a Fast Attack slot competing against other things but it needs a constant Synapse babysitter now. And doesn't really move that fast to be honest.

I still can't understand the point of Leaper as a sub type. Why not just give it jump? Or why not just give it bounding leap ala Hormagaunts?

They're really trying too hard with this thing.

bodazoka wrote:
Dimachaeron moves 6" a turn <--- this is where I stopped reading...

It's tough enough, I could possibly get it into combat turn 2 with a 12" move but 6" move? how am I going to pull that off? am I missing something? is there something else yet to be seen?

I'm really hoping that the Leaper trait means it moves an extra 6" a turn for a total of 12" a turn.

Else the thing is bloody useless for the points and slot it is in. Right now it competes with Gargoyles, Shrikes, Raveners, Crones and Harpies for the slot.

For the role it competes with Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants and heaven forbid the Haruspex.

Seriously, it has a nice number of attacks and all...but at 200 points? Ouch. Especially only moving 6" a turn with the standard TMC issues (T6, 3+ save)

Spoletta wrote:
The slowest moving model in the game is in our FA slot, so i don't think that this guy shames anyone by being there.

That aside, any news on the miotic spores? I was always a fan of those.

If you mean Spore Mines - they can at least deep strike if you take a cluster of them.

Dimmy there doesnt' even have that.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Anyone fancy doing some maths on how well the Dimy will do in combat against various armour values?

Going to come out and say he won't be that hot against vehicles. He's about par with Trygons and Hive Tyrants.

His great big uber +4 Str attack only comes into play against infantry.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Well. That scuppered plans.

Friend had serious family issues come up - so, being a friend I backburned the plans to paint. I can field an army consisting of things already painted - might not be ideal but would rather be there if he needed me to talk to than be too preoccupied and stressed out.

So, presented...

What will be attending - 1800 points, Lords of War allowed, charity tournament with the emphasis being on lighter lists rather than super competitive must win or Else.



Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

14 Termagants - Fleshborers
14 Termagants - Spinefists
5 Tyranid Warriors - 3 Deathspitters, 2 Rending Claws

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
2 Venomthropes

3 Raveners - Rending Claws

Trygon

Barbed Hierodule

- All painted, all within a single force organisation chart and generally enough for this week so I can be a friend.

Me again. Working on a bit this week to see if I can get a unit done in a day - if I can, then good news!

Plan would be to replace the Trygon and 3 Raveners...

5 Shrikes - 2 Twin Boneswords, 2 LW/Boneswords, Flesh Hooks, Toxin Sacs.

You see, all this talk about the Dime...

That's exactly my point.

For the role it fills...well, is it necessary? Sure, it can murder small and medium squads with ease. Thing is, a Trygon can do just the same, costs less points, has a ranged attack and can deep strike.

Oh, but it gets so many attacks to wreck vehicles with massed glancing! Uh huh. Twin Devourer Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes do just the same at range. The Carnifexes then have the advantage if they do get an assault of putting down multiple S9 hits at I10.

Oh, but it can ID infantry...so SM captains etc....

Yeah, that's great. Anything with a bonesword does it...and we can get a lot of boneswords elsewhere for less.

Thing is...I don't like Dime. I really don't.

Anything he can do...other things in other slots can do it better and for less points or with far more efficiency. I mean, if you really, really want a fast moving ID causing unit? Well, a unit of 5 Shrikes with flesh hooks and toxin sacs, 2 twin boneswords and 3 LAW/Boneswords costs less points than a Dime. They move faster, can Deep Strike, have a ranged attack in the flesh hooks and put out far more potential ID causing attacks. A flyrant with LW/BS or if you pour some points the Reaper...sure, it costs more. But it comes with a far, FAR greater degree of mobility, Synapse and 2 psychic powers to boot.

I mean, I look at Dime...and try to figure out what he has that's special.

Let's start with his movement.

He has Leaper - so, he moves 6 and ignores cover if he chooses to do so in his movement phase. Okaaaay.

Every Monstrous Creature has MTC as standard - which means all Dime gets is what, 2 inches more over them in terms of movement? But wait, that's just assuming they're on foot only. It really only applies to Footrants, Carnifexes and Haruspexes who would be trying to fill the same role.

Other things competing for Dime's role...well, they have alternative movement. Flyrants naturally have wings. VASTLY superior mobility right there. Sure, there's the awkward turn of coming to land...no, wait. You can still move as jump infantry so you are still faster than Dime even when not Swooping. Trygons can Deep Strike. In fact, so can Mawlocs. These are things that would fill a similar role but clearly are cheaper and get there faster or more efficiently.

Ok, so maybe movement's not good.

Let's look at Dime's stats! WS 8, S6, T6, W6, I6, A5.

Ok, respectable. But wait, let's step back.

WS 8 is horrendously redundant. Hitting on 3+s can be acheived with WS 5 and since the average WS of troops in this game is 4...well, WS 8 does nothing to reduce the damage coming back to you in assault unless you combo it with a successful paroxysm. So, looking at his big assault gribbly competitors....

His WS only really seems to trump Carnifexes and Haruspexes. Okay.... Tyrants are WS 8, Trygons are WS 5. If anything WS 8 is wasted points as he is now reliant on you having Paroxysm to maximise his potential and reduce damage back on him. So, ew. That's already forcing me to take things to augment Dime when no one else really needs it that is competing with him.

Strength and Toughness are Tyranid standards for the most part - he falls down against Carnifexes here. Sure, he trumps the Carnifex on WS but the fexes trump him hard on strength. That 4+ ID Dime brings seems a bit redundant against T4 multiwound units when Carnifexes do it by virtue of Strength alone. Dime will shine more against T6+ to be honest - T5 can still be squished by Crusher fexes - who then get armourbane on top. But that's another matter.

Wounds. Yes. 6 wounds. Mighty. Impressive. Fancy. Oh yes. Wait, Trygons have those. Okay....plus, as terrible as it sounds These 6 wounds can be stripped away as easily as anyone else's. Where Dime falls down is the fact that other TMCs have the option to get Regeneration, he does not. Sure, he gets a 4+ FNP - that he has to get into assault and kill someone with his I1 ability that is reliant on a condition to trigger in order to benefit from.

For everything else there's Catalyst too.

It seems so far that Dime has a lot of redundancy in his kit. A lot of it.

His Initiative...is a plus point. In the open he is faster than anything we have that lacks a Lash whip or isn't a Lictor/Genestealer. However ....he has no access to Spine Banks or Flesh Hooks, so will be going at I1 if assaulting anything in cover. And believe you me, anything he gets to will probably be in cover. Admittedly his situation is not unique - Flyrants, Trygons, Haruspexes all suffer the same problem of assaulting things in cover. Carnifexes...seem to trump Dime here. Again.

I can't go on.

Dime seems like a lot of poorly thought out redundancy and special weapon rules on a single model.

Now, perhaps in an army designed to cater to Dime? Which probably is Hope For MoA and then it's GG with Dime. Otherwise, probably not.

He also...doesn't seem to mesh well with our Psychic Powers. Sure, we can Catalyst him to help him survive...buuut we can also Catalyst other targets as well and boost their survivability just the same.

Onslaught is useless on him - he gives no return for it. No shooting equals no value for Onslaught - even the Trygon gives something for Onslaught but naturally Dakkafexes and Flyrants are king here for Onslaught.

Paroxysm...seems almost mandatory for Dimes to shine. But Paroxysm also makes Flyrants, Trygons and even humble Carnifexes shine. Marines stop laughting when Carnifexes suddenly start hitting them on a 3+ because you dropped their WS by 2. Gaunt tarpits laugh the same way in fact.

I'm trying to think, WS wise what does Dime...actually need that WS 8 to threaten? Avatars, Phoenix Lords, Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes? Or other Tyranids.

But against other Tyranids? Hahahahaha. No Dime. A flyrant will circle you all day, peppering you with devourer shots til you fall over. You will flail your mighty arms and do nothing. And if someone else was running melee 'nids against a Dime?

I'm not be surprised to see a LW/BS or Reaper Flyrant rip Dime into tiny little pieces.

Cause, you see, he also lacks Fearless. Sure, he's Ld 10.

But MCs cause FEAR. He faiils one LD test against one fear causing unit outside of Synapse range and he's a WS 1 piece of junk. It's rare....

But my god, it'll happen against Daemons, CSM and Tyranids in particular. And at WS 1 he's...well, going to drop fast against them.

I want to like Dime. The model...it is ok. From different angles. Not a huge fan of the random rocks he must stand on...but eh.

But Dime...is a let down to me.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Armywide Move Through Cover means we never get slowed charging through difficult terrain.

However, a damn near army wide lack of assault grenades (seriously - Lictors, Warriors, Shrikes and Carnifexes only) means we never strike before I1 after charging through said terrain.

coredump wrote:
Dude, the Dimathingy has plenty of issues/problems... but your bias has turned your 'evaluation' into a bad joke.....

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

For the role it fills...well, is it necessary? Sure, it can murder small and medium squads with ease. Thing is, a Trygon can do just the same, costs less points, has a ranged attack and can deep strike.

If you think the Trygon is *anywhere near* 'just the same' as the Dima, you are looking at the wrong rules. Almost twice as many attacks, higher S, generate FnP, able to cause ID...etc....etc.... The Trygon is a joke. The Dima is a killing machine. It may have 'delivery' issues, but that is a completely separate issue.

Oh, but it gets so many attacks to wreck vehicles with massed glancing! Uh huh. Twin Devourer Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes do just the same at range. The Carnifexes then have the advantage if they do get an assault of putting down multiple S9 hits at I10.

Dealing with vehicles is a secondary benefit for he Dima, not the primary. TLDev don't do very well past AV11... Dima does. Dima also ignores cover saves, including jink. HoW at S9 is very cool, but 9 attacks at S8 isn't bad either. I can build a better AT fex, but this is the *secondary* function for the Dima

Oh, but it can ID infantry...so SM captains etc....

Yeah, that's great. Anything with a bonesword does it...and we can get a lot of boneswords elsewhere for less.

Haha...come on... yes, a bonesword can, on a S4 model (S5 if you get AG), and they require rolling a 6 to wound.
Sure, you can put it on a HT, but there goes your 'cheaper' assertion.

Lets take up your challenge. 4 warriors, LW/BS, AG 220pts (so not cheaper, but lets continue...)
You mentioned a chapter master:
Warriors charge: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 1.666 ID wounds.
Dimathingy charge: 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 ID wounds. *THEN* it gets another ID attack at the end of the turn.

So... dima is 200 pts for 6 ID wounds, or 220pts for warriors getting 1.667 ID wounds.... So the Dima is *4 times* more efficient in causing ID wounds...

This is what I mean about your bias making a mockery of your 'review'

I mean, if you really, really want a fast moving ID causing unit? Well, a unit of 5 Shrikes with flesh hooks and toxin sacs, 2 twin boneswords and 3 LAW/Boneswords costs less points than a Dime.

Um.... what codex are you using? That Shrike unit is 275 pts..... (even 4 would be more than the Dima, try doing the math with 3.5 shrikes)

They move faster, can Deep Strike, have a ranged attack in the flesh hooks and put out far more potential ID causing attacks.

Hahahaha... clever use of the word 'potential' there.... Many of those attacks come at I4, they are all at S4, and they require a 6 to ID in any case. The Dima is S8, so all the attacks on the charge can ID T4, otherwise, they only need a 4+ to ID. Dima rolls on 3+ on many targets causing the warriors to roll 4+.
Futher, the shrikes have no ability to gain FnP, have a 5+ save, and krak missiles will kill the shrikes faster than the Dima.

Yes, the shrikes have much more mobiity, and that is important. But that is, again, an issue you are not yet addressing. You keep reaching conclusions that the facts to not support.

A flyrant with LW/BS or if you pour some points the Reaper...sure, it costs more. But it comes with a far, FAR greater degree of mobility, Synapse and 2 psychic powers to boot.

You said you can get "more for less"... That HT will get about *1/9* the number of ID attacks on T4, and about 1/6 the number on T5+. *AND* it costs a about 25% *more*. So you are actually getting "a lot less, for more"

Do you have *any* comparison that actually supports this "more for less" assertion?? Seriously, you do realize that Boneswords only ID on a wound roll of 6... right?

Let's start with his movement
(snip)
Ok, so maybe movement's not good.
.

CONGRATULATIONS.... you have finally reached an actual problem with the Dima.... Yes, its movement *is* a problem. It is too dang slow... And Leaper is a joke.

WS 8 is horrendously redundant. Hitting on 3+s can be acheived with WS 5[ and since the average WS of troops in this game is 4...well, WS 8 does nothing to reduce the damage coming back to you in assault

Are you serious?? Do you really never fight anything besides Tac Marines? Even the Chapter master you mentioned has WS6. WS8 reduces a lot of attacks compared to WS5, like all of those models with WS5/6/7... This is really getting sad....

. That 4+ ID Dime brings seems a bit redundant against T4 multiwound units when Carnifexes do it by virtue of Strength alone.

SO DOES DIMA!!!! Believe it or not, S8 will ID T4 just as well as T4. *and* Dima gets more than double the attacks, *and* will hit more often.
Again, math is not your friend. Even in subsequent rounds, Dima will get *more* ID wounds needing a 4+, than the fex will get. The Dima will get about *3 times* the number of attacks, and hit more often. That 4+ just isn't that big of a deal at that point....

And again, (and again, and again) you skip over little things like generating a 4+ FnP....

However ....he has no access to Spine Banks or Flesh Hooks, so will be going at I1 if assaulting anything in cover.

Hey, congrats... you found the second problem for Dima....

Cause, you see, he also lacks Fearless. Sure, he's Ld 10.

But MCs cause FEAR. He faiils one LD test against one fear causing unit outside of Synapse range and he's a WS 1 piece of junk. It's rare....

Hahaha... man you are getting desparate.

Yes *IF* Dima is out of synapse, *AND* he is assaulted by a model with Fear, *and* he fails a Ld10 check (1 in 12), then yes, that will be a bad *single* round.... OTOH, if those fexes you keep promoting are out of synapse, there is about a 1 in 5 chance they stand around attacking each other...

DIma is a CC animal.... there just is no comparison in the book, not really. The main problem is getting into CC, and part of that is the lack of 'grenades'.... but most of your 'analysis' is marred by poor math and really bad assumptions....

 SHUPPET wrote:
Really good to see someone do an in depth analysis on it there DSS. Unbiased and well reasoned..

BWAHAhahahahaha......... Dude, there are plenty of reasons to dislike Dimathingy.... but if you found this 'unbiased and well reasoned'.... your glasses may need a new prescription....

Salty much?

I love the fact you've effectively turned this into a rather nasty attack on me, as seen further down the thread from the post quoted as well.

The Dima is a CC animal - with a lot of redundant stats and special rules that will never reliably see play or function. It suffers the same glaring weaknesses as CC Carnifexes and Trygons, but costs more than either.

And sure - the Trygon is also a turn 3 assault - which can deep strike onto the other end of the table while the Dima, assuming you put it fully forward and decided to run each turn for your average of 3.5 inches may just eventually get there, assuming it doesn't get shot to bits or completely outmaneuvered.

Ah, there's the difference. The Trygon can effectively FORCE its deployment - it can push itself right into an area and FORCE its opponent to deal with it while a Dima can be safely ignored and outmaneuvered with impunity. After all, Trygons do not mishap with their DS unless they go off the table AND they create an entry point for any other units you have in reserve coming in afterwards. The Dima does not do that, lacks any sort of firepower and most importantly lacks the capacity to deploy in any meaningful way to force your opponent to deal with him.

Furthermore - your crack about Hive Tyrants - I believe I refer to that. And in return for a few more points than a Dime you get Synapse and a ML 2 psyker.

Oh, and wings. Not that Flying offers a HUGE boost in mobility at all. Nope, clearly not.

Shrikes having no ability to gain FNP.

That there is adorable. Absolutely adorable. Have you forgotten that Tyranids are an army that is as much about synergy as Eldar? No ability to gain FNP? Zoanthropes and Tyrants. Plus 15 wounds of FNP Shrikes will be much durable against, say, massed Plasma Fire than 6 wounds of Dima which will never get to proc its FNP because no one in their right might will just sit there and let it advance close enough to be a threat.

Also, my bad about the Shrikes points. Forgot to carry a few things, eh. Happens when you're tired.

Also, your quip about the Dima having delivery issues.

Delivery issues. Really? You casually quip that and fail to see that those very delivery issues are the ENTIRE cause of complaint people have with the Dima. All the ID causing doomsday stats in the world mean nothing if they never see combat. And considering the Force Org slot its in? Well, it has to prove its worth against Harpies, Crones, Raveners, Shrikes and Gargoyles.

Now to be fair....if it was in HQ it would lose every time to Flyrants. If it was in Elites it would fall down flat on its face against Venomthropes and Zoanthropes for the utility and synergy they provide. And if it was in Heavy Support...eh, I dare say that would be a better place for it.

Heck, they could have even gone the whole hog, made it a Gargantuan Creature and called it a Lord of War. It's certainly got the size for that plus it would give it a base FNP and movement of 12". The FNP it gains is already an improved version. Would have helped survivability, helped the delivery issues and put it in a slot with far less competition - because really, even if they added 100 points or so for that it would still be coming well ahead of Hierodules.

But hey guys.

Less personal attacks on me please, thank you. You may not agree with my opinions but in the end they are just that. Opinions. Everyone is entitled to one and it doesn't ever have to be the same as yours.

So, TLDR

Less personal attacks.
So conversation about blatant points ignored for witty quips.
Shoulda made the Dima a 300 point or so LoW Gargantuan Creature - would have seriously fixed his problems right off the bat and put him in a Force Org slot where he's competing less with other units for value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, hate on Trygons all you like.

My humble Trygon spent the better part of my last game today tanking a Reaver Titan and eventually taking it down.

Little bugger made his points back well and truly today.

 xttz wrote:
Let's all squabble about how awesome the Malanthrope is instead!

In other news, tomorrow I'm ordering 3 Malanthropes...

I don't think anyone will squabble about putting the incredible augmentation of a Venomthrope on top of a Synapse MC. I think Malanthropes have become the silliest viable thing out of the entirely of IA 4 with that!

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
I already have one painted and used it before the update because the model is awesome. So no one can complain about me using it now!

I will be picking up a second as well as a couple stone crushers and a Dimmy!

What are peoples thoughts on the stonecrusher now?

Well if you go by the past 2 pages of the thread the stonecrusher is absolute garbage because it doesn't move 18" a turn and auto win games.

Personally I like its abilities, ap2 s10 hammer of wrath is great. I will miss it's 2+ save however. But it got cheaper. All in all a good side grade.

Points cost for performance - as you said, it got cheaper. It getting cheaper will lean better in its favour.

It got cheaper and got AP 2 HoW hits. So a nice barrage of AP 2 at I10 is always a positive thing really.

Wait. A Barbed Hierodule doing well in the BAO after all the hate thrown at it earlier in this thread?

I knew I loved my Barbie for a reason.

True. I think it was a Barbie that decided screw people's opinions, she was gonna shine. Best Barbie.

Sort of like my Trygon tanking a Reaver Titan and eventually killing the damn thing. Best 190 point investment all weekend.