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 CKO wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The issue is that while the Dime is strong in CC, it's slow and its area of threat is much smaller than similarly priced models.
I recognize that. CKO was comparing the Dime to a Dakkafex which has a significantly larger threat range and acting confused as to why one is praised and the other not.

I never once use the word threat range, I asked what is the difference between shooting down a dakkafex and shooting down a close combat monster such as the dime? Just because it has a larger threat range doesnt increase its survivability, and I used the dakkafex as an example.

It doesn't increase survivability, it increases effectiveness while on the table.
Dakkafex shoots things turn 1 and 2, dies opponent turn 2.
Dime runs and runs turn 1 and 2, dies opponent turn 2.

Which one was a better investment in points? At this point, saying "The Dime of course!" is willfully deluding yourself.

As far as CC buffs, challenge wounds spilling over is actually really bad for us.
You never, ever want to win combat on your turn - you always want to win on their turn. Challenging and pasting a Sargent was extremely useful.

You see, all this talk about the Dime...

That's exactly my point.

For the role it fills...well, is it necessary? Sure, it can murder small and medium squads with ease. Thing is, a Trygon can do just the same, costs less points, has a ranged attack and can deep strike.

Oh, but it gets so many attacks to wreck vehicles with massed glancing! Uh huh. Twin Devourer Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes do just the same at range. The Carnifexes then have the advantage if they do get an assault of putting down multiple S9 hits at I10.

Oh, but it can ID infantry...so SM captains etc....

Yeah, that's great. Anything with a bonesword does it...and we can get a lot of boneswords elsewhere for less.

Thing is...I don't like Dime. I really don't.

Anything he can do...other things in other slots can do it better and for less points or with far more efficiency. I mean, if you really, really want a fast moving ID causing unit? Well, a unit of 5 Shrikes with flesh hooks and toxin sacs, 2 twin boneswords and 3 LAW/Boneswords costs less points than a Dime. They move faster, can Deep Strike, have a ranged attack in the flesh hooks and put out far more potential ID causing attacks. A flyrant with LW/BS or if you pour some points the Reaper...sure, it costs more. But it comes with a far, FAR greater degree of mobility, Synapse and 2 psychic powers to boot.

I mean, I look at Dime...and try to figure out what he has that's special.

Let's start with his movement.

He has Leaper - so, he moves 6 and ignores cover if he chooses to do so in his movement phase. Okaaaay.

Every Monstrous Creature has MTC as standard - which means all Dime gets is what, 2 inches more over them in terms of movement? But wait, that's just assuming they're on foot only. It really only applies to Footrants, Carnifexes and Haruspexes who would be trying to fill the same role.

Other things competing for Dime's role...well, they have alternative movement. Flyrants naturally have wings. VASTLY superior mobility right there. Sure, there's the awkward turn of coming to land...no, wait. You can still move as jump infantry so you are still faster than Dime even when not Swooping. Trygons can Deep Strike. In fact, so can Mawlocs. These are things that would fill a similar role but clearly are cheaper and get there faster or more efficiently.

Ok, so maybe movement's not good.

Let's look at Dime's stats! WS 8, S6, T6, W6, I6, A5.

Ok, respectable. But wait, let's step back.

WS 8 is horrendously redundant. Hitting on 3+s can be acheived with WS 5 and since the average WS of troops in this game is 4...well, WS 8 does nothing to reduce the damage coming back to you in assault unless you combo it with a successful paroxysm. So, looking at his big assault gribbly competitors....

His WS only really seems to trump Carnifexes and Haruspexes. Okay.... Tyrants are WS 8, Trygons are WS 5. If anything WS 8 is wasted points as he is now reliant on you having Paroxysm to maximise his potential and reduce damage back on him. So, ew. That's already forcing me to take things to augment Dime when no one else really needs it that is competing with him.

Strength and Toughness are Tyranid standards for the most part - he falls down against Carnifexes here. Sure, he trumps the Carnifex on WS but the fexes trump him hard on strength. That 4+ ID Dime brings seems a bit redundant against T4 multiwound units when Carnifexes do it by virtue of Strength alone. Dime will shine more against T6+ to be honest - T5 can still be squished by Crusher fexes - who then get armourbane on top. But that's another matter.

Wounds. Yes. 6 wounds. Mighty. Impressive. Fancy. Oh yes. Wait, Trygons have those. Okay....plus, as terrible as it sounds These 6 wounds can be stripped away as easily as anyone else's. Where Dime falls down is the fact that other TMCs have the option to get Regeneration, he does not. Sure, he gets a 4+ FNP - that he has to get into assault and kill someone with his I1 ability that is reliant on a condition to trigger in order to benefit from.

For everything else there's Catalyst too.

It seems so far that Dime has a lot of redundancy in his kit. A lot of it.

His Initiative...is a plus point. In the open he is faster than anything we have that lacks a Lash whip or isn't a Lictor/Genestealer. However ....he has no access to Spine Banks or Flesh Hooks, so will be going at I1 if assaulting anything in cover. And believe you me, anything he gets to will probably be in cover. Admittedly his situation is not unique - Flyrants, Trygons, Haruspexes all suffer the same problem of assaulting things in cover. Carnifexes...seem to trump Dime here. Again.

I can't go on.

Dime seems like a lot of poorly thought out redundancy and special weapon rules on a single model.

Now, perhaps in an army designed to cater to Dime? Which probably is Hope For MoA and then it's GG with Dime. Otherwise, probably not.

He also...doesn't seem to mesh well with our Psychic Powers. Sure, we can Catalyst him to help him survive...buuut we can also Catalyst other targets as well and boost their survivability just the same.

Onslaught is useless on him - he gives no return for it. No shooting equals no value for Onslaught - even the Trygon gives something for Onslaught but naturally Dakkafexes and Flyrants are king here for Onslaught.

Paroxysm...seems almost mandatory for Dimes to shine. But Paroxysm also makes Flyrants, Trygons and even humble Carnifexes shine. Marines stop laughting when Carnifexes suddenly start hitting them on a 3+ because you dropped their WS by 2. Gaunt tarpits laugh the same way in fact.

I'm trying to think, WS wise what does Dime...actually need that WS 8 to threaten? Avatars, Phoenix Lords, Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes? Or other Tyranids.

But against other Tyranids? Hahahahaha. No Dime. A flyrant will circle you all day, peppering you with devourer shots til you fall over. You will flail your mighty arms and do nothing. And if someone else was running melee 'nids against a Dime?

I'm not be surprised to see a LW/BS or Reaper Flyrant rip Dime into tiny little pieces.

Cause, you see, he also lacks Fearless. Sure, he's Ld 10.

But MCs cause FEAR. He faiils one LD test against one fear causing unit outside of Synapse range and he's a WS 1 piece of junk. It's rare....

But my god, it'll happen against Daemons, CSM and Tyranids in particular. And at WS 1 he's...well, going to drop fast against them.

I want to like Dime. The model...it is ok. From different angles. Not a huge fan of the random rocks he must stand on...but eh.

But Dime...is a let down to me.

Really good to see someone do an in depth analysis on it there DSS. Unbiased and well reasoned. I think you probably should have mentioned that he pays about half again the points of a Mawloc, for the same defensive stats, so his durability is actually pretty terrible. Also, MoA is far from an instawin, you still face the exact same problem Trygons use to have, the whole "3 or nothing" - take one, it arrives, sits there, your opponent has a full shooting phase with his entire army in range of it. My hurt that this puts on your fielded army size by throwing away such ineffecient wounds (most expensive base price for T6 wounds in the army next to Swarmlord), you need to see a serious return for your points to make it worthwhile.

Compare it to using MoA with the same amount of points in Dakkafex, dumping JUST UNDER A HUNDRED TL S6 shots in the amount of time it takes 3 Dimacs to make it to assault and get off a round of attacks. Far less reliably as well, as Dakkafexes do half those shots before your opponent even gets a chance to shoot. And guess what, you still have an MoA slot open. It's not even a contest. Plus for the games you don't get MoA... It's not just a bunch of wasted points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't get me wrong Dimas would be far better with Infiltrate and definitely playable, however they wouldn't be OP at all, just balanced. Assaulty T6 no frags leaves many many ways to get dealt with, but at least you could rely on making the distance to combat.

So, i heard that apart from the Malan, the fexes and the Dima all the other FW nids kept theyr rules. Is it possible? I mean look at the old meiotic spore rules, they make no sense in 7E.

I'm asking cause they are quite good with a lictor/deathleaper homing them in. They blow up the same turn they DS.

omerakk wrote:
What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?

I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)

Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.

Well...you have to remember that that single shot is a Template, and you get to take two "shots" I habitually Vector strike, and toss a Template, you can also use the Electro-bugs, and still shoot one dose of Brain Leeches.... It only costs 10 points, I've never felt like I could have gotten better value from something else. And it makes getting charged a much scarier concern for the enemy (wall o'death) All in all, a dang good spend.

ruminator wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

jifel wrote:

omerakk wrote:
What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?

I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)

Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.

Gigasnail has it right, it's for the AV 13 and 14. I also find it very helpful for Wave Serpents and their highly annoying cover saves, and for any open topped vehicle to hit guys inside. Another perk is being able to potentially hit multiple vehicles with it, which is always great.

This is more difficult now, because when targeting vehicles you must place as much as the template over the vehicle as possible.

Not really when looking at flyrants due to their movement range. Easy to pop off to one side to strafe the 3 wave serpents sat in a row ... With my tervigon I just take what comes and often don't get to shoot it at all.

SHUPPET wrote:Harder but not overly so

Just remember to do that you have to target the furthest one away.

That's one option, and the other is landing in such a manner that while covering as much of the unit as possible, the small end of the template being in contact with your base still forces contact with something over the other side. Both ways work, just requires imaginative positioning.

Spoletta wrote:
So, i heard that apart from the Malan, the fexes and the Dima all the other FW nids kept theyr rules. Is it possible? I mean look at the old meiotic spore rules, they make no sense in 7E.

http://i.imgur.com/OExyDqv.jpg

 xttz wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
So, i heard that apart from the Malan, the fexes and the Dima all the other FW nids kept theyr rules. Is it possible? I mean look at the old meiotic spore rules, they make no sense in 7E.

http://i.imgur.com/OExyDqv.jpg

Thanks man!

Now though i'm more confused than before...they resolve as a shooting attack and have no BS stat? Way to go FW rules...

Spoletta wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
So, i heard that apart from the Malan, the fexes and the Dima all the other FW nids kept theyr rules. Is it possible? I mean look at the old meiotic spore rules, they make no sense in 7E.

http://i.imgur.com/OExyDqv.jpg

Thanks man!

Now though i'm more confused than before...they resolve as a shooting attack and have no BS stat? Way to go FW rules...

Since they're shooting a blast, it's largely irrelevant.

I don't think you can shot at all without a BS stat. Like the problem with 5E broodlord and The Horror.

Edit: Also, can't go in reserves but must enter by deepstrike? What if i mishap back into reserves?

Spoletta wrote:
I don't think you can shot at all without a BS stat. Like the problem with 5E broodlord and The Horror.

Edit: Also, can't go in reserves but must enter by deepstrike? What if i mishap back into reserves?

Iirc, you just place the blast marker and check range. As for can't enter reserves, hiwpi would be to just reroll. Unless you're playing with some anally-retentive people it shouldn't be too hard to agree on something.

I can't see myself running the Dimachaeron (not a fan of the model really) or the Stone Crushers, but DAMN the Malanthrope got sexier! I might have to rustle one of those up.

I usually run a brood of two Venomthropes (redunancy so one lucky shot doesn't give up first blood) in my lists, but I can DEFINITELY see a Malanthrope taking up residency in that slot instead!!

Spoletta wrote:
I don't think you can shot at all without a BS stat. Like the problem with 5E broodlord and The Horror.

Edit: Also, can't go in reserves but must enter by deepstrike? What if i mishap back into reserves?

Does not say they can't go in reserves. Just that they may only be held in reserve in games that hold everyone in reserve. I read it as they must all deploy before first game turn but after deployment. If you mishap in to reserve, they are not held bu forced in to ongoing reserve so deploy at the start of your next turn.

Spoletta wrote:


1) Challenges fixed. No longer will your flyrant/prime/deathleaper/nob/demon/whatever get disabled by a sergeant.
2) New cover rules, if one enemy model sees your first model in cover then all the firing unit sees that model in cover. This is a huge nerf to gunlines formed by multiple models like FW, crysis, TM etc... With just a little bit of positioning (easier without the movement penalty on charge) you have guaranted cover save against overwatch.
3) Maelstrom missions, the dead of gunlines.
4) Maestrom missions with objectives placed before choosing the side, the home of assaut armies.

1) Slight overall improvement
2) Same as last edition
3) Does not make assault any 'better'
4) run into the middle, get shot by shooty armies.

They also nerfed Smash Attack, and FMC assaulting, and greatly reduced area terrain. The new charge rules mean harder to charge through cover, and can even fail a 1" charge.

It may be possible that if you add everything up, things may have gotten somewhat better, but thats like saying you are 'better off' jumping out a window on the 30th floor instead of the 32nd floor. Better... but does it really matter at that point?

Armywide Move Through Cover means we never get slowed charging through difficult terrain.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Armywide Move Through Cover means we never get slowed charging through difficult terrain.

However, a damn near army wide lack of assault grenades (seriously - Lictors, Warriors, Shrikes and Carnifexes only) means we never strike before I1 after charging through said terrain.

Dude, the Dimathingy has plenty of issues/problems... but your bias has turned your 'evaluation' into a bad joke.....

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

For the role it fills...well, is it necessary? Sure, it can murder small and medium squads with ease. Thing is, a Trygon can do just the same, costs less points, has a ranged attack and can deep strike.

If you think the Trygon is *anywhere near* 'just the same' as the Dima, you are looking at the wrong rules. Almost twice as many attacks, higher S, generate FnP, able to cause ID...etc....etc.... The Trygon is a joke. The Dima is a killing machine. It may have 'delivery' issues, but that is a completely separate issue.

Oh, but it gets so many attacks to wreck vehicles with massed glancing! Uh huh. Twin Devourer Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes do just the same at range. The Carnifexes then have the advantage if they do get an assault of putting down multiple S9 hits at I10.

Dealing with vehicles is a secondary benefit for he Dima, not the primary. TLDev don't do very well past AV11... Dima does. Dima also ignores cover saves, including jink. HoW at S9 is very cool, but 9 attacks at S8 isn't bad either. I can build a better AT fex, but this is the *secondary* function for the Dima

Oh, but it can ID infantry...so SM captains etc....

Yeah, that's great. Anything with a bonesword does it...and we can get a lot of boneswords elsewhere for less.

Haha...come on... yes, a bonesword can, on a S4 model (S5 if you get AG), and they require rolling a 6 to wound.
Sure, you can put it on a HT, but there goes your 'cheaper' assertion.

Lets take up your challenge. 4 warriors, LW/BS, AG 220pts (so not cheaper, but lets continue...)
You mentioned a chapter master:
Warriors charge: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 1.666 ID wounds.
Dimathingy charge: 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 ID wounds. *THEN* it gets another ID attack at the end of the turn.

So... dima is 200 pts for 6 ID wounds, or 220pts for warriors getting 1.667 ID wounds.... So the Dima is *4 times* more efficient in causing ID wounds...

This is what I mean about your bias making a mockery of your 'review'

I mean, if you really, really want a fast moving ID causing unit? Well, a unit of 5 Shrikes with flesh hooks and toxin sacs, 2 twin boneswords and 3 LAW/Boneswords costs less points than a Dime.

Um.... what codex are you using? That Shrike unit is 275 pts..... (even 4 would be more than the Dima, try doing the math with 3.5 shrikes)

They move faster, can Deep Strike, have a ranged attack in the flesh hooks and put out far more potential ID causing attacks.

Hahahaha... clever use of the word 'potential' there.... Many of those attacks come at I4, they are all at S4, and they require a 6 to ID in any case. The Dima is S8, so all the attacks on the charge can ID T4, otherwise, they only need a 4+ to ID. Dima rolls on 3+ on many targets causing the warriors to roll 4+.
Futher, the shrikes have no ability to gain FnP, have a 5+ save, and krak missiles will kill the shrikes faster than the Dima.

Yes, the shrikes have much more mobiity, and that is important. But that is, again, an issue you are not yet addressing. You keep reaching conclusions that the facts to not support.

A flyrant with LW/BS or if you pour some points the Reaper...sure, it costs more. But it comes with a far, FAR greater degree of mobility, Synapse and 2 psychic powers to boot.

You said you can get "more for less"... That HT will get about *1/9* the number of ID attacks on T4, and about 1/6 the number on T5+. *AND* it costs a about 25% *more*. So you are actually getting "a lot less, for more"

Do you have *any* comparison that actually supports this "more for less" assertion?? Seriously, you do realize that Boneswords only ID on a wound roll of 6... right?

Let's start with his movement
(snip)
Ok, so maybe movement's not good.
.

CONGRATULATIONS.... you have finally reached an actual problem with the Dima.... Yes, its movement *is* a problem. It is too dang slow... And Leaper is a joke.

WS 8 is horrendously redundant. Hitting on 3+s can be acheived with WS 5[ and since the average WS of troops in this game is 4...well, WS 8 does nothing to reduce the damage coming back to you in assault

Are you serious?? Do you really never fight anything besides Tac Marines? Even the Chapter master you mentioned has WS6. WS8 reduces a lot of attacks compared to WS5, like all of those models with WS5/6/7... This is really getting sad....

. That 4+ ID Dime brings seems a bit redundant against T4 multiwound units when Carnifexes do it by virtue of Strength alone.

SO DOES DIMA!!!! Believe it or not, S8 will ID T4 just as well as T4. *and* Dima gets more than double the attacks, *and* will hit more often.
Again, math is not your friend. Even in subsequent rounds, Dima will get *more* ID wounds needing a 4+, than the fex will get. The Dima will get about *3 times* the number of attacks, and hit more often. That 4+ just isn't that big of a deal at that point....

And again, (and again, and again) you skip over little things like generating a 4+ FnP....

However ....he has no access to Spine Banks or Flesh Hooks, so will be going at I1 if assaulting anything in cover.

Hey, congrats... you found the second problem for Dima....

Cause, you see, he also lacks Fearless. Sure, he's Ld 10.

But MCs cause FEAR. He faiils one LD test against one fear causing unit outside of Synapse range and he's a WS 1 piece of junk. It's rare....

Hahaha... man you are getting desparate.

Yes *IF* Dima is out of synapse, *AND* he is assaulted by a model with Fear, *and* he fails a Ld10 check (1 in 12), then yes, that will be a bad *single* round.... OTOH, if those fexes you keep promoting are out of synapse, there is about a 1 in 5 chance they stand around attacking each other...

DIma is a CC animal.... there just is no comparison in the book, not really. The main problem is getting into CC, and part of that is the lack of 'grenades'.... but most of your 'analysis' is marred by poor math and really bad assumptions....

 SHUPPET wrote:
Really good to see someone do an in depth analysis on it there DSS. Unbiased and well reasoned..

BWAHAhahahahaha......... Dude, there are plenty of reasons to dislike Dimathingy.... but if you found this 'unbiased and well reasoned'.... your glasses may need a new prescription....

Dude... I don't like Dimac but it's not because of bias, it's because I've cast an unbiased eye towards it, and my interpretation is as such, after spending a period of time processing and thinking about the unit. I wouldn't lie about or conceal my honest opinion just due to some bias against the sculpt or something lol. Differing opinions will be had, if others wish to lose games using the model they can feel free to, and in a low level meta where people just feed units to it it does a great job of taking advantage of people's stupidity.

However, to me, bias is "hand waving" the lack of assault grenades, the movement speed, the time it takes to threaten something, acting as if it's FnP is at all relevant considering at best, you stand a CHANCE of getting it in time for turn 4 shooting. Remember when you pulled me up for hand waving the guarantee of Old Adversary with Devilgants? Yeah, these things are FAR more relevant, crippling, and likely to occur. This is how I perceive a bias in your posts, be it real or imagined.

The only really accurate points or any time that you went into any real depth was when disregarding comparisons to really/fairly bad models (CC Tyrant, Trygon, CC Shrike squad, etc). Why you didn't go into the same depth for counter arguments or points that you couldn't disprove, shouts bias to me. I didn't say that Darkstar's comparisons were great or that his opinions on other models were on point, I was just saying that it's nice to a well reasoned in depth analysis, unbiased being that he didn't deliberately skimp on any details, and it's the kind of thoughtful intelligent posting that I think we should promote, whether he was wrong or right in his opinion (as it is just that).

The Trygon is a joke. The Dima is a killing machine. It may have 'delivery' issues, but that is a completely separate issue.

Actually it's not. It's very much the most relevant issue to who does the most damage out the two. The Trygon has the same durability for cheaper, makes it to combat often 2 turns earlier, definitely 1, and reliably makes it to threat range every single game, and the turn it hits the battlefield. Considering that you are trading often enough two turns of getting shot, for two EXTRA turns of combat, makes the Trygon a FARRRRR better model than Dimac.

And the Trygon freaking sucks.

The fact that these comparisons can even exist is what classes Dimac in the bottom tier of our units, a direct result of the issues you couldn't deny but decided not to touch on. He has none of the tools needed to apply that damage or even make back his investment on a good day, let alone reliably. It takes very circumstantial game to take advantage of his positives. Yet his lack of move speed and frag grenades can as will be relevant every game against even a mid tier player.

I will emphasise again, that these opinions are not fuelled off bias, against either you or the model (I'd love for this guy to work, and you as a poster seem good at constructing and contributing well reasoned posts even if we do disagree on certain units), this is merely me sharing an opinion. Maybe the outlandish opinion that this 6" fragless 200 pt low durability CC beast is fatally flawed, is indeed a sign prescribed glasses. I reay don't think so though, but hey, it's an opinion, I could somehow be very wrong. Rest assured that it is coming from a genuine place however.


Coming

The trygon is exactly the same speed. If you're referring to deep strike, that's still turn 3 assault, same as the Dima.

Yes the Dima is too slow to be comptetitive, especially in a game where mobility is everything, but you are acting like it's a pyrovore.

SHUPPET, do you ever play in GTs? Have any battle reports? I'd honestly like to see how your games play out, you make it sound like every game is against wave serpent spam in hammer and anvil on planet bowling ball for kill points only.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The trygon is exactly the same speed. If you're referring to deep strike, that's still turn 3 assault, same as the Dima.

Yes the Dima is too slow to be comptetitive, especially in a game where mobility is everything, but you are acting like it's a pyrovore.

SHUPPET, do you ever play in GTs? Have any battle reports? I'd honestly like to see how your games play out, you make it sound like every game is against wave serpent spam in hammer and anvil on planet bowling ball for kill points only.

Turn 3 assault, the turn before Dima often. The turn AFTER it arrives, as opposed to 3 turns of doing nothing but a cover save at best, getting wiped off the map in all likelihood for a better wounds to points ratio than most things in the codex (at the very least all the [playable] non-aggressive units like Dima). A. I'm comparing the amount of turns it spends on the board before making it to combat, not which game turn it does it on, B. even game turn wise, the Trygon STILL does it faster. Not to mention more reliably. And with much broader target selection. And with a gun, although it barely merits the mention lol.

What do you mean by acting as if it's a Pyrovore? Doesnt Pyrovore, by virtue of having some range on his weapon, have faster damage projection than Dima, or at least enough to make up for lost ground through terrain? Not seeing how these guys aren't at similar levels of speed.

GTs don't exist where I live. Me not attending them is due to 40k being largely unpopular and unsupported as competitive support, not due to an unwillingness to attend or an incapability to compete. It's really not at all relevant to disproving my statements however. However, for your sake, I play in a meta with both competitive and casual gamers. We use a satisfactory amount of terrain in every game. I see the only sensible thing to do being basing my strategys against the better players, as while Dima can win against the bad ones, ANYTHING can win against the bad ones. Can I ask what exactly I have said (and I do mean exactly, please share using my words) that has given you the impression that I play on planet bowling ball and need to write out a freaking battle report or participate in a GT just to give my statements any merit? Or is this just a peg to avoid arguing the actual statements themselves instead trying to discredit the player?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:
Armywide Move Through Cover means we never get slowed charging through difficult terrain.

However, a damn near army wide lack of assault grenades (seriously - Lictors, Warriors, Shrikes and Carnifexes only) means we never strike before I1 after charging through said terrain.

Unless, of course, the unit we're assaulting is pinned, which we've been given the tools to make happen (aka The Horror psy power).

And before you say it. Yes, we know...fearless units cannot be pinned. Good thing for us that most units in the 40k universe aren't fearless (apart from Chaos Daemons being the obvious fully fearless army).

Also the Living Artillery formation is quite possibly the best pinning available to any army in the game! Pinning is something we can do well, somewhat mitigates our lack of assault grenades.

However, not having frags is still very relevant. Good pinning or not, having to successfully cast/hit+wound and then roll a pin, is nowhere near as reliable as, well, NOT having to see a bunch of successful rolls to pin.

It does come in handy for other situations than assaulting however, so pinning is great. Unfortunately spammed Biovores no longer pin in 7th, which is actually a big loss for pinning support.

Also (just seeing as it's such a hot topic ATM) I think it's worth looking over how well our shooty (best) Pins mesh with the concept of Dimmy. Requiring you dedicate and likely waste an entire unit of shooting as well as at least one successful wound, on a unit that Dimmys role is to solo eat alive. It's better than going last with a 200 pt 6W unit however :/ plus the pin effect itself of forcing snapshots is somewhat wasted against a unit that is almost guaranteed to be either tied up in combat or dead, in the next shooting phase (exceptions being Hit&Run units, all of whom being unlikely recipients of a Dimacs rampage due to their mobility, or CC units capable of actually beating him in combat, who snapshots were likely wasted on anyway since their shooting was LIKELY pretty minimal). All in all, logic tells me that it doesn't seem to add any cost effectiveness to the Dimac, but worth bringing for him regardless.

[Phone error]

Shuppet: please reread what I posted. You continually respond to things I did not say or do.

1) I never said your review of DIma was biased, nor that you were lieing. (People will have differing opinion of certain characteristics, but that is different.) DSS was actively trying to change factual reality to suit his assertions, and you somehow found that "unbiased" and "in depth". My statement was about that comment, for if you cannot see the *many* errors including *factually wrong* assertions, it shows you are more concerned with him agreeing with you than anything else.

2) I did not "hand wave" the Dima lack of speed nor grenades. Please read them again. I was very direct labeling them the actual problem, and saying it was "too dang slow". I could not have been more direct.... I never said it wasn't important, nor did I say it was easily overcome. Those are all assumptions you are making. I believe earlier in this thread I even called them its "Achilles heel". I supposed you wanted me to continue to belabor the point.... but I am pretty sure everyone already agrees it is too slow.

3) I do think getting FnP is not just 'a chance'; instead it is all but inevitable; *IF* it can get into assault. (Big 'if' - important 'if'). But again, please read what was actually written by DSS.... he was comparing two models, and their ability *once in combat*... for *that comparison* FnP is a big deal

4)Not sure what 'bias' you are referring to.... I corrected the things he said that were wrong (and showed why they were wrong.) and agreed with the things that were right. You just seem upset that I didn't spend an entire paragraph agreeing with him about what the real problems are. That isn't bias, that is not wasting my time.
If someone wrote a long list of why Dima was great, and talked about how fast it was, and how it is great once in CC. I would explain why the first was wrong, and just agree with the second.

5) *Thats the point* Trygon, Shrike etc *are* bad units. Yet DSS claims they were *better* in CC (and cheaper) and you read that and decided it was unbiased and well reasoned.

6) Wait... are you really telling me it was *bad* to not give counter examples for points I couldn't disprove...?? He said things that were true, and so I *agreed* with him... and you are somehow trying to twist that into a bad thing??? You are somehow calling me "biased" because I disagreed when he was wrong, and agreed when he was right...??? Do you understand what 'biased' means?? You called his entire piece "in depth" "unbiased" and "well reasoned".... even though you didn't agree, and eventhough you *know* much of what he said is just plain wrong. *THAT* is pretty much the definition of bias....

I didn't say that Darkstar's comparisons were great or that his opinions on other models were on point, I was just saying that it's nice to a well reasoned in depth analysis, unbiased being that he didn't deliberately skimp on any details, and it's the kind of thoughtful intelligent posting that I think we should promote, whether he was wrong or right in his opinion (as it is just that).

7) So, he has bad comparisons, and bad opinions... ones he picked just to prove his point. I think you have a very different definition of 'unbiased' and 'well reasoned' than most other people. And yes, he *did* skimp on details... he completely skimped on any details that would disprove his assertions... that is the *definition* of bias....In addition, he provided *lots* of details that were factually, provably, false... which is pretty much the definition of "poorly* reasoned...
The post was superficial and self-serving..... if someone created an equally poor post about how 'great' the Dima is you would easily see through it and blast it as such. The fact that you can't do that here... shows that your bias is severely impacting your judgement.

Actually it's not. It's very much the most relevant issue to who does the most damage out the two. The Trygon has the same durability for cheaper,

8) I agree with you.... but that is *NOT* what DSS was writing about. That was *not* the comparison he was making. Thus that was *not* the comparison I was responding to. The reason I said that the 'delivery problem' was a separate issue, is because the issue DSS was discussing was the actual combat ability of the two models. Please try and read what he actually writes, instead of filtering it through your own opinion of how good/bad Dima is.

a direct result of the issues you couldn't deny but decided not to touch on.

9) Couldn't deny...??? Do you ever actually *read* the posts?? Couldn't deny...?? I *stated* it... *THE DIMA IS TOO DANG SLOW!!!*



Look... thats enough. DSS wrote a bunch of drivel that was factually inaccurate, completely skipped over any and all details that what against his post, and cherry picked comparisons - and still got them wrong.
You found the post "intelligent, well reasoned, unbiased, in depth"

My response factually disproved many of his errors, provided many of the details that he pointedly ignored, and yet still covered and *agreed with* the points that were accurate.
You found my post to be 'hand waving and biased'


Whatever...

Actually you are very much right, I think I jumped to a conclusion or two, and even though we disagree on the model I believe I've made a mistake on interpretation with you again. Must be your writing style or something man because I really misread the vibe. Whatever, but while I no longer think you are being bias I don't think DSS was either, nor do I think his poor choice of comparisons prove anything positive for the Dima, nor do I think that the good comparison (Trygon) should be broken down by seperating their attack power and delivery of it into two different comparisons instead of looking at the package as a whole for a more accurate picture. It's critically important when strategizing to apply the damage, and your total damage output per game is dependant largely on your ability to project it to the necessary positions.

coredump wrote:
Dude, the Dimathingy has plenty of issues/problems... but your bias has turned your 'evaluation' into a bad joke.....

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

For the role it fills...well, is it necessary? Sure, it can murder small and medium squads with ease. Thing is, a Trygon can do just the same, costs less points, has a ranged attack and can deep strike.

If you think the Trygon is *anywhere near* 'just the same' as the Dima, you are looking at the wrong rules. Almost twice as many attacks, higher S, generate FnP, able to cause ID...etc....etc.... The Trygon is a joke. The Dima is a killing machine. It may have 'delivery' issues, but that is a completely separate issue.

Oh, but it gets so many attacks to wreck vehicles with massed glancing! Uh huh. Twin Devourer Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes do just the same at range. The Carnifexes then have the advantage if they do get an assault of putting down multiple S9 hits at I10.

Dealing with vehicles is a secondary benefit for he Dima, not the primary. TLDev don't do very well past AV11... Dima does. Dima also ignores cover saves, including jink. HoW at S9 is very cool, but 9 attacks at S8 isn't bad either. I can build a better AT fex, but this is the *secondary* function for the Dima

Oh, but it can ID infantry...so SM captains etc....

Yeah, that's great. Anything with a bonesword does it...and we can get a lot of boneswords elsewhere for less.

Haha...come on... yes, a bonesword can, on a S4 model (S5 if you get AG), and they require rolling a 6 to wound.
Sure, you can put it on a HT, but there goes your 'cheaper' assertion.

Lets take up your challenge. 4 warriors, LW/BS, AG 220pts (so not cheaper, but lets continue...)
You mentioned a chapter master:
Warriors charge: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 1.666 ID wounds.
Dimathingy charge: 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 ID wounds. *THEN* it gets another ID attack at the end of the turn.

So... dima is 200 pts for 6 ID wounds, or 220pts for warriors getting 1.667 ID wounds.... So the Dima is *4 times* more efficient in causing ID wounds...

This is what I mean about your bias making a mockery of your 'review'

I mean, if you really, really want a fast moving ID causing unit? Well, a unit of 5 Shrikes with flesh hooks and toxin sacs, 2 twin boneswords and 3 LAW/Boneswords costs less points than a Dime.

Um.... what codex are you using? That Shrike unit is 275 pts..... (even 4 would be more than the Dima, try doing the math with 3.5 shrikes)

They move faster, can Deep Strike, have a ranged attack in the flesh hooks and put out far more potential ID causing attacks.

Hahahaha... clever use of the word 'potential' there.... Many of those attacks come at I4, they are all at S4, and they require a 6 to ID in any case. The Dima is S8, so all the attacks on the charge can ID T4, otherwise, they only need a 4+ to ID. Dima rolls on 3+ on many targets causing the warriors to roll 4+.
Futher, the shrikes have no ability to gain FnP, have a 5+ save, and krak missiles will kill the shrikes faster than the Dima.

Yes, the shrikes have much more mobiity, and that is important. But that is, again, an issue you are not yet addressing. You keep reaching conclusions that the facts to not support.

A flyrant with LW/BS or if you pour some points the Reaper...sure, it costs more. But it comes with a far, FAR greater degree of mobility, Synapse and 2 psychic powers to boot.

You said you can get "more for less"... That HT will get about *1/9* the number of ID attacks on T4, and about 1/6 the number on T5+. *AND* it costs a about 25% *more*. So you are actually getting "a lot less, for more"

Do you have *any* comparison that actually supports this "more for less" assertion?? Seriously, you do realize that Boneswords only ID on a wound roll of 6... right?

Let's start with his movement
(snip)
Ok, so maybe movement's not good.
.

CONGRATULATIONS.... you have finally reached an actual problem with the Dima.... Yes, its movement *is* a problem. It is too dang slow... And Leaper is a joke.

WS 8 is horrendously redundant. Hitting on 3+s can be acheived with WS 5[ and since the average WS of troops in this game is 4...well, WS 8 does nothing to reduce the damage coming back to you in assault

Are you serious?? Do you really never fight anything besides Tac Marines? Even the Chapter master you mentioned has WS6. WS8 reduces a lot of attacks compared to WS5, like all of those models with WS5/6/7... This is really getting sad....

. That 4+ ID Dime brings seems a bit redundant against T4 multiwound units when Carnifexes do it by virtue of Strength alone.

SO DOES DIMA!!!! Believe it or not, S8 will ID T4 just as well as T4. *and* Dima gets more than double the attacks, *and* will hit more often.
Again, math is not your friend. Even in subsequent rounds, Dima will get *more* ID wounds needing a 4+, than the fex will get. The Dima will get about *3 times* the number of attacks, and hit more often. That 4+ just isn't that big of a deal at that point....

And again, (and again, and again) you skip over little things like generating a 4+ FnP....

However ....he has no access to Spine Banks or Flesh Hooks, so will be going at I1 if assaulting anything in cover.

Hey, congrats... you found the second problem for Dima....

Cause, you see, he also lacks Fearless. Sure, he's Ld 10.

But MCs cause FEAR. He faiils one LD test against one fear causing unit outside of Synapse range and he's a WS 1 piece of junk. It's rare....

Hahaha... man you are getting desparate.

Yes *IF* Dima is out of synapse, *AND* he is assaulted by a model with Fear, *and* he fails a Ld10 check (1 in 12), then yes, that will be a bad *single* round.... OTOH, if those fexes you keep promoting are out of synapse, there is about a 1 in 5 chance they stand around attacking each other...

DIma is a CC animal.... there just is no comparison in the book, not really. The main problem is getting into CC, and part of that is the lack of 'grenades'.... but most of your 'analysis' is marred by poor math and really bad assumptions....

 SHUPPET wrote:
Really good to see someone do an in depth analysis on it there DSS. Unbiased and well reasoned..

BWAHAhahahahaha......... Dude, there are plenty of reasons to dislike Dimathingy.... but if you found this 'unbiased and well reasoned'.... your glasses may need a new prescription....

Salty much?

I love the fact you've effectively turned this into a rather nasty attack on me, as seen further down the thread from the post quoted as well.

The Dima is a CC animal - with a lot of redundant stats and special rules that will never reliably see play or function. It suffers the same glaring weaknesses as CC Carnifexes and Trygons, but costs more than either.

And sure - the Trygon is also a turn 3 assault - which can deep strike onto the other end of the table while the Dima, assuming you put it fully forward and decided to run each turn for your average of 3.5 inches may just eventually get there, assuming it doesn't get shot to bits or completely outmaneuvered.

Ah, there's the difference. The Trygon can effectively FORCE its deployment - it can push itself right into an area and FORCE its opponent to deal with it while a Dima can be safely ignored and outmaneuvered with impunity. After all, Trygons do not mishap with their DS unless they go off the table AND they create an entry point for any other units you have in reserve coming in afterwards. The Dima does not do that, lacks any sort of firepower and most importantly lacks the capacity to deploy in any meaningful way to force your opponent to deal with him.

Furthermore - your crack about Hive Tyrants - I believe I refer to that. And in return for a few more points than a Dime you get Synapse and a ML 2 psyker.

Oh, and wings. Not that Flying offers a HUGE boost in mobility at all. Nope, clearly not.

Shrikes having no ability to gain FNP.

That there is adorable. Absolutely adorable. Have you forgotten that Tyranids are an army that is as much about synergy as Eldar? No ability to gain FNP? Zoanthropes and Tyrants. Plus 15 wounds of FNP Shrikes will be much durable against, say, massed Plasma Fire than 6 wounds of Dima which will never get to proc its FNP because no one in their right might will just sit there and let it advance close enough to be a threat.

Also, my bad about the Shrikes points. Forgot to carry a few things, eh. Happens when you're tired.

Also, your quip about the Dima having delivery issues.

Delivery issues. Really? You casually quip that and fail to see that those very delivery issues are the ENTIRE cause of complaint people have with the Dima. All the ID causing doomsday stats in the world mean nothing if they never see combat. And considering the Force Org slot its in? Well, it has to prove its worth against Harpies, Crones, Raveners, Shrikes and Gargoyles.

Now to be fair....if it was in HQ it would lose every time to Flyrants. If it was in Elites it would fall down flat on its face against Venomthropes and Zoanthropes for the utility and synergy they provide. And if it was in Heavy Support...eh, I dare say that would be a better place for it.

Heck, they could have even gone the whole hog, made it a Gargantuan Creature and called it a Lord of War. It's certainly got the size for that plus it would give it a base FNP and movement of 12". The FNP it gains is already an improved version. Would have helped survivability, helped the delivery issues and put it in a slot with far less competition - because really, even if they added 100 points or so for that it would still be coming well ahead of Hierodules.

But hey guys.

Less personal attacks on me please, thank you. You may not agree with my opinions but in the end they are just that. Opinions. Everyone is entitled to one and it doesn't ever have to be the same as yours.

So, TLDR

Less personal attacks.
So conversation about blatant points ignored for witty quips.
Shoulda made the Dima a 300 point or so LoW Gargantuan Creature - would have seriously fixed his problems right off the bat and put him in a Force Org slot where he's competing less with other units for value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, hate on Trygons all you like.

My humble Trygon spent the better part of my last game today tanking a Reaver Titan and eventually taking it down.

Little bugger made his points back well and truly today.

It'd be unfortunate to have this thread derailed by gamer squabbling and have it closed down.

Maybe we can reserve the thread for actual Tyranid talk and on point discussion, rather than let conflicting personalities turn it into a negative place to post at.

 Iechine wrote:
It'd be unfortunate to have this thread derailed by gamer squabbling and have it closed down.

Maybe we can reserve the thread for actual Tyranid talk and on point discussion, rather than let conflicting personalities turn it into a negative place to post at.

Seconded. At this point, I say we all conclude that the Dimacheoron is not perfectly top tier, but can potentially work as a nasty assault unit if supported. And then, I encourage everyone to go take a Trygon model and proxy it in a game, form your own set of data, and lets look at some actual results. Until then, lets just forget the whole argument thing. Lets just see some BatReps!

Dima is better then a trygon. It's no contest. Can't zbelieve it's even being argued.

That said it won't have a place in most lists. There's no incentive to take expensive and slow assaulters in 7ed.