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My love for the Ultramarines is firmly rooted in the fact that I have bought nothing but miniatures from GW since 4th edition. So things like the 5th edition codex do not exist in my headcanon.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
My love for the Ultramarines is firmly rooted in the fact that I have bought nothing but miniatures from GW since 4th edition. So things like the 5th edition codex do not exist in my headcanon.

You're one of the lucky ones..

I made my own Chapter, because I am a creative person and I didn't want to just use someone else's army when I could just as easily make my own. Also, the Ultras didn't have a 'hook' that appealed to me. If GW had really played up their Roman and Greek themes beyond their naming conventions and adding a helmet crest to a single model, I might have gone with them (well, I would've made a Successor Chapter). As it was, they were generically generic. Their models looked just like all the other non-Space Wolf models, and their background fluff had nothing for me to sink my teeth into. Now, if they had been modeled to look more Roman than they were, their lack of interesting fluff might have been mitigated by cool looking models. As it was, they were victims of having both generic models and generic fluff.

That's not to say that I dislike them or have any hatred for them, I just find them to be kind of 'meh'. I started 40K back when the Ultras weren't the poster children for anything apart from their own codex. Sure, their book said they were the best, but everybody's book said that about their own army. The Space Wolf codex was all "The Sons of Russ are the most awesome Space Marines and don't you forget it", the Blood Angels/Dark Angels codex (one book, two Chapters) was all "First Founding Chapters with the word 'angel' in their name are better than any other Chapter", and the Ork codex said "Orks are better than Space Marines because WAAAAAAAAGH!"

It's only been more recently when Matt Ward (yes, I know he only spells it with one 'T'... I'm spelling it wrong on purpose) was able to make more than one codex say that the Ultras were the best that the fan base really turned on the Ultras.

While the Ultramarines were busy forming a second empire, the Imperial Fists stood between Terra and the full might of chaos. The Imperial Fists also saved what was left of the loyalist Mechanicum. When Roboute returned after the battle was won, Dorn gave up leadership and went on to try and end the threat to the Imperium completely. While the Ultramarines are the paragons of the virtues of what it means to be an Astartes, the Fists are its embodiment in the flesh.

As the Ultramarines are so fond of saying practical (Fists) over theoretical (Ultramarines).

 dreadnova wrote:
While the Ultramarines were busy forming a second empire, the Imperial Fists stood between Terra and the full might of chaos. The Imperial Fists also saved what was left of the loyalist Mechanicum. When Roboute returned after the battle was won, Dorn gave up leadership and went on to try and end the threat to the Imperium completely. While the Ultramarines are the paragons of the virtues of what it means to be an Astartes, the Fists are its embodiment in the flesh.

As the Ultramarines are so fond of saying practical (Fists) over theoretical (Ultramarines).

Saying they 'saved the loyalist mechanicum' is a bit... generous.

They saved the remaining supplies of bolters and power armour, and a few Mechanicum adepts managed to stow away. They pretty much left Mars to burn.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 dreadnova wrote:
While the Ultramarines were busy forming a second empire, the Imperial Fists stood between Terra and the full might of chaos. The Imperial Fists also saved what was left of the loyalist Mechanicum. When Roboute returned after the battle was won, Dorn gave up leadership and went on to try and end the threat to the Imperium completely. While the Ultramarines are the paragons of the virtues of what it means to be an Astartes, the Fists are its embodiment in the flesh.

As the Ultramarines are so fond of saying practical (Fists) over theoretical (Ultramarines).

Saying they 'saved the loyalist mechanicum' is a bit... generous.

They saved the remaining supplies of bolters and power armour, and a few Mechanicum adepts managed to stow away. They pretty much left Mars to burn.

They tried and failed. All they literally did was land, hold out for as long as they could while they secured armaments and then fled, destroying whatever was left. If they saved anyone it was not their intention.

"We have been wounded sorely. Yet still we stand, with fire in our eyes and valour in our hearts. Let them think us beaten. We shall teach them otherwise."

Here's my two cents. Well, I chose BT. Mainly because of fluff. I mean, come on: For one BT aren't religously zealots but loyal zealots (2nd founding do don't believe Emperor as a God), they are the biggest chapter out there (rumored at least a legion if not two), second maybe to SW (SW companies are each a chapter in strength). Also never ending crusade and causing the whole killing of a ton of psykers by "accident" in the Howling? pretty sick. They also have had zero marines fall to chaos. Besides that the fact they have no home world makes them better (no weakness of worrying about it or stationing troops to it). The fact that they do what they want, BT don't contact Terra for permission to assault worlds or anything like others do, they just do it. Also BT don't listen to the Inquisition. Not in our chapter so nope. Besides, why follow the Codex? BT aren't a Codex Astartes chapter (though we are lumped into 6th with them) fluff wise. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be a vanilla Mary Sue following Rowboat Girlyman and believing I'm the best and all others are lesser because they aren't me. Thats just me, and honestly my second favorite chapter are the SW. Next follows IF, WS, Iron Snakes, CF and then Iron Hands. Rest follow after wards, and its all based on my appeal to fluff.

 Black Tauplar wrote:
(SW companies are each a chapter in strength).

This is the second time I've seen this posted here. I have never heard that SW great companies are Chapter sized in official fluff. I have heard that they are more than 100 marines (usually around 120-140 or so) but I have only heard the idea that SW companies are 1000 marines put forward on Dakka. I've been in this hobby since 2nd Ed, and if this is true, it is news to me.

Ventris is a dick I'm no fan of the ultra marines but the threads original post makes for a convincing argument. I'm not sure I would like being taken out of relative comfort though and thrown into a nightmare world. It may be better to have known nothing else but fighting and death all your life. Bu see were your coming from.

squidhills wrote:

 Black Tauplar wrote:
(SW companies are each a chapter in strength).

This is the second time I've seen this posted here. I have never heard that SW great companies are Chapter sized in official fluff. I have heard that they are more than 100 marines (usually around 120-140 or so) but I have only heard the idea that SW companies are 1000 marines put forward on Dakka. I've been in this hobby since 2nd Ed, and if this is true, it is news to me.

 Black Tauplar wrote:

squidhills wrote:

 Black Tauplar wrote:
(SW companies are each a chapter in strength).

This is the second time I've seen this posted here. I have never heard that SW great companies are Chapter sized in official fluff. I have heard that they are more than 100 marines (usually around 120-140 or so) but I have only heard the idea that SW companies are 1000 marines put forward on Dakka. I've been in this hobby since 2nd Ed, and if this is true, it is news to me.

The canny Primach pulled a sleight of hand on his brother Guilliman, ostensibly agreeing to separate the Space Wolves Legion into thirteen independant Great Companies, each roughly a Chapter in strength http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Wolves


This is where I got this. Also, I recommend you read Battle of the Fang. They leave one company at the Fang and the entire thousand sons come by after being rallied and hold them off. They had the PDF there, but in the book the one company was pretty much chapter in strength, at least 500 marines a company. This is just what I've read/ heard (my brother is a SW player and I get a lot of fluff from him. He also shows me the places he gets it so I know he isn't just spewing it.) I don't think they are each 1000, but pretty darn close.

I don't know much about DA chapter or their succesors and how they are set up, but I would argue more for BT being larger/ second to them then. I've been seeing conflict with the wikia and lexicanum lately on things. if they say that the second largest is 200, and the company in Battle of the Fang was at east 500 from what I read, somethings up with fluff dis agreements (nothing new really)

 Black Tauplar wrote:
I don't know much about DA chapter or their succesors and how they are set up, but I would argue more for BT being larger/ second to them then. I've been seeing conflict with the wikia and lexicanum lately on things. if they say that the second largest is 200, and the company in Battle of the Fang was at east 500 from what I read, somethings up with fluff dis agreements (nothing new really)

There is no fluff disagreement here at all. The Battle of the Fang took place 8000 years before the current setting, obviously a lot has changed since then.

While the DA are setup into chapters of around 1000 marines, all of their Grand Masters answer directly to Azreal, so he essentially commands a legion. BT, I think, are the largest single body of loyalist marines though.

Oh. Well I didn't understand it took place 8000 years ago. I failed to realize this, my bad. So SW would be roughly two, maybe three chapters in strength total instead of a legion.

I do not have any of the most recent fluff, but I have always seen most people discuss as if BT and SW had Chapters that were about 50-60% larger than the codex "1000 marines". The two just differ in organization.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I do not have any of the most recent fluff, but I have always seen most people discuss as if BT and SW had Chapters that were about 50-60% larger than the codex "1000 marines". The two just differ in organization.

Well we don't have hard numbers for SW, but as mentioned they have 13 companies.

The second largest is close to 200 (Ragnars company) and smaller then logan's.

So assuming it only gets smaller around then, they should be about either two to three chapters, or at worst around 1.5 chapters.

I wouldn't want to be an ultramarine

Well, no. It's a pretty dehumanizing life destined to end bloodily.

Technically they only have 12 real companies. The 13th is wolfs in the warp which really only appeared in the 13th crusade.

Based upon the highest possible approximate values, 2490 marines (300, 200, and the rest 199). So x2.5 almost. Keep in mind, this value is assuming that the largest is 300 rather than 250 or something. The others probably aren't 199, instead likely varying from 115-180 or so.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Technically they only have 12 real companies. The 13th is wolfs in the warp which really only appeared in the 13th crusade.

Based upon the highest possible approximate values, 2490 marines (300, 200, and the rest 199). So x2.5 almost. Keep in mind, this value is assuming that the largest is 300 rather than 250 or something. The others probably aren't 199, instead likely varying from 115-180 or so.

The thing is the second largest isn't 200 exactly, it says it's 'close' to it.

Also it's likely varied from 30-180 yeah.


But yeah, to be an Ultramarine is to become dehumanized in most cases, to sacrifice yourself to defend the Imperium, though if I had to pick Ultramar is certainly a better society to live in compared to most of the Imperium, even if it is basically Rome.

Ultramar is by far (one of) the best regions to be from, if I had a choice. Most other Chapters recruit from hell-holes, probably because those sort of places breed the kinds of warriors that it takes to go through the transition.

To be honest I wouldn't quite say that Ultramar being one of the best regions is much a point to be an Ultramarine. Whilst I don't really like Ultramarines, I actually don't really mind them. I kinda wish they played up their roman theming a bit more but I'm quite fine with them as is. Hey, if they can rule over several systems, keep order, and have it maintained as one of the best places to live in the galaxy, why the heck wouldn't they get some credit

No, but it's *possible* that a stable society like Ultramar might breed more "stable" marines than some of the Chapters that recruit from gangs that survive on deathworlds, one who possibly require psycho-conditioning just to make them capable of behaving and/or accepting modern Imperial society and technology.

Not that it's unique to just the Ultramar region. I suspect lots of codex chapters benefit from stable regions of recruitment.

It depends on how they prefer their recruitment. Some like death worlds for 'harder' marines, well trained worlds for better trained ones, and stable ones so you don't end up like the Marines Malevolent.

The universe needs the goody-goody ultramarines, I think. They're the poster boys of the Space marines and remind me of the 'all rounder' characters in video games. Like Ryu, or something. I certainly don't hate them like I do Space Wolves or Grey Knights.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I do not have any of the most recent fluff, but I have always seen most people discuss as if BT and SW had Chapters that were about 50-60% larger than the codex "1000 marines". The two just differ in organization.

BT are far larger than 50-60%. There are about 6 or 7 Crusades of around 500-1000 marines going on at most points, and then you also have to consider that almost every Initiate has a Neophyte (not sure if they're counted in terms of marines but still). So call it about 3000 marines at the least... I'd say that's a bit more than 50-60%.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I do not have any of the most recent fluff, but I have always seen most people discuss as if BT and SW had Chapters that were about 50-60% larger than the codex "1000 marines". The two just differ in organization.

BT are far larger than 50-60%. There are about 6 or 7 Crusades of around 500-1000 marines going on at most points, and then you also have to consider that almost every Initiate has a Neophyte (not sure if they're counted in terms of marines but still). So call it about 3000 marines at the least... I'd say that's a bit more than 50-60%.

Yeah, Black Templar and DA would be considered the largest amongst all the marines. Black Templar had a suspected 6000 and more (Yes the neophytes are counted as they immediately join the initiates group)

I never knew that the successors of the DA reported directly to DA chapter master. Is that only for the purpose of capturing the fallen or does he exercise direct control. Any DA players know?