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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

Lolwut. That is ridiculous. Unless they were dabbling in Chaos, the only poisons capable of overwhelming Astartes are those Nurgle in nature.

And even then, the immune system can actually fight Nurgle's Rot to a biological war of attrition for over a week.

They are poison resistant, not immune. Considering Dark Eldar still can poison them, along with other factions and such, they aren't immune.

In the second Word Bearer book, one of the word bearers licks a DE poisoned splinter. He gets ill for a few moments and then he just flushes it away. He was a possessed mind, so that might help him.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

Lolwut. That is ridiculous. Unless they were dabbling in Chaos, the only poisons capable of overwhelming Astartes are those Nurgle in nature.

And even then, the immune system can actually fight Nurgle's Rot to a biological war of attrition for over a week.

They are poison resistant, not immune. Considering Dark Eldar still can poison them, along with other factions and such, they aren't immune.

In the second Word Bearer book, one of the word bearers licks a DE poisoned splinter. He gets ill for a few moments and then he just flushes it away. He was a possessed mind, so that might help him.

Actually it's easy for them to deal with poison that's ingested with the Preomnor gland.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

Lolwut. That is ridiculous. Unless they were dabbling in Chaos, the only poisons capable of overwhelming Astartes are those Nurgle in nature.

And even then, the immune system can actually fight Nurgle's Rot to a biological war of attrition for over a week.

They are poison resistant, not immune. Considering Dark Eldar still can poison them, along with other factions and such, they aren't immune.

In the second Word Bearer book, one of the word bearers licks a DE poisoned splinter. He gets ill for a few moments and then he just flushes it away. He was a possessed mind, so that might help him.

Actually it's easy for them to deal with poison that's ingested with the Preomnor gland.

However, just watch what happens when they get the glass plague (MuaHaHaHaHaa). That's what I love about DE, a horrid virus wipes out half their population and what do they do after finding a cure? Weaponise it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

Mmm, don't remember much details about that, but didn't said Marine went to battle without a helmet and got many, many, many, many bolts stuck in his face before bitting it?

Yes, he did. It was specifically noted that the moth venom had an effect on Astartes physiology, though. The whole point was that it had anti-Chaos properties.

What of plot Anti-Armor? Like, being weakened by the universal plot of it all? Like Orkz not being gods because that would mess everything up, even though logically they should be (The change the universe subconsciously. The guns dont even have triggers, and the red ones go faster)

 Hive Fleet Cerberus wrote:
What of plot Anti-Armor? Like, being weakened by the universal plot of it all? Like Orkz not being gods because that would mess everything up, even though logically they should be (The change the universe subconsciously. The guns dont even have triggers, and the red ones go faster)

Except that's just memetic bs invented as an in-joke of comedy by 1D4Chan and others. Purple Orks are funny, but purely fanfic.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Hotshot punch through armor better than any weapons you mentionned.

And yet it only has the actual stopping power of a lasgun, which Marines are very capable of tanking. In fact, they even lack the lasguns' advantage in that you can spam them so much, since hotshot lasguns are mostly used by soldiers rarer than Space Marines.

Hotshot lasguns are like the most overrated weapons of the millennium, along with lasguns, heavy bolters, meltaguns... You know what, there's an awful lot of overrated weapons.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
along with lasguns, heavy bolters, meltaguns... You know what, there's an awful lot of overrated weapons.

I don't see how those weapons are overrated. Could you elaborate?

IMO<the lasgun is excellent for what it does (an effective, mass-easy to maintain rifle for mass use in the IG), and heavy bolters and melta guns are both quite destructive weapons.

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
along with lasguns, heavy bolters, meltaguns... You know what, there's an awful lot of overrated weapons.

I don't see how those weapons are overrated. Could you elaborate?

IMO<the lasgun is excellent for what it does (an effective, mass-easy to maintain rifle for mass use in the IG), and heavy bolters and melta guns are both quite destructive weapons.

Well, normal PA (at least from the HH), shrugged off pintle mounted laser turrtets that might have very well been multilasers, and terminator armor shrugs off bolter rounds with little notice. However, heavy bolters are still lethal to normal PA, or at least direct, zero degree hits to pieces such as the breastplate (although this still doesn't stop some from swatting the rounds out of the air). Anything taken to the pauldrons however, is pretty much just shrugged off.
(Never understood why people make fun of them. In universe, they make sense and often will save your life. Cover protects the torso, pauldrons will then cover everything else and laugh off most infantry weapons besides gauss and melta.)

Hotshot don't need as much volume of fire because it pierces armor.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Hotshot don't need as much volume of fire because it pierces armor.

It's a laser. It penetrates via heat. Being hit by a barrage of lasers will eventually build up the heat of the target until it becomes malleable and able to be punched through. Except that didn't happen...

Its a hotter than hot laser, makes PA a joke, like plasma weapon or melta weapons.

Its a bit stupid that it doesn't hurt the target better, but some others have better explanation for that.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its a hotter than hot laser, makes PA a joke, like plasma weapon or melta weapons.

Its a bit stupid that it doesn't hurt the target better, but some others have better explanation for that.

Hotshot lasguns and hellguns are quite simply lasers (by their description, even if the Black Library wants to make them blasters from Star Wars, dammit, they're lasers by WOG). They're hotter than normal pattern lasguns and are dangerous from their exceptional heat. But a tanking constant lasgun fire will soon equal temperatures of hotshot lasguns/hellguns. So no, there are examples where Astartes could eat a hellgun/hotshot lasgun. And of course they don't do more damage. They're a laser, you know what lasers focus on? Penetration. You know what they don't do? Extreme damage, as they're purely heat weapons. While it might sear more flesh around the shot, it might even be self-defeating by cauterizing the own wound it creates. You're just lucky I'm not one of the people that pulls out FTL space marines or fully invincible chaos space marines that harmlessly shrug off lasguns to their bare faces when other people get their chests vaped.

Thank you for not understanding the weapon of your own faction.

(And plasma is also vastly hotter than lasguns, considering it's fusion in origin. By some calcs as well, it's even hotter than the sun, IE, over fifteen million kelvins. Now just let that sink in for what that means for AOE damage, and the lack of IOM citizens being vaped.)

Its still more efficient at killing SM than a lasgun because it ignores PA, being hotter (and apparently firing faster, but there's no source on that, so...) means that reaching the point where the target becomes ''maleable'' is reached a lot faster

Also has more energy per shot, makes exploding limbs and vaporizing the part hit easier.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its a hotter than hot laser, makes PA a joke, like plasma weapon or melta weapons.

Its a bit stupid that it doesn't hurt the target better, but some others have better explanation for that.

Hotshot lasguns and hellguns are quite simply lasers (by their description, even if the Black Library wants to make them blasters from Star Wars, dammit, they're lasers by WOG). They're hotter than normal pattern lasguns and are dangerous from their exceptional heat. But a tanking constant lasgun fire will soon equal temperatures of hotshot lasguns/hellguns. So no, there are examples where Astartes could eat a hellgun/hotshot lasgun. And of course they don't do more damage. They're a laser, you know what lasers focus on? Penetration. You know what they don't do? Extreme damage, as they're purely heat weapons. While it might sear more flesh around the shot, it might even be self-defeating by cauterizing the own wound it creates. You're just lucky I'm not one of the people that pulls out FTL space marines or fully invincible chaos space marines that harmlessly shrug off lasguns to their bare faces when other people get their chests vaped.

Thank you for not understanding the weapon of your own faction.

(And plasma is also vastly hotter than lasguns, considering it's fusion in origin. By some calcs as well, it's even hotter than the sun, IE, over fifteen million kelvins. Now just let that sink in for what that means for AOE damage, and the lack of IOM citizens being vaped.)

Psst.

The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other laser weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion

Laser weapons emit a highly focused, high energy beam of light which on impact produces a rapid temperature change on the target's surface, causing vaporisation in the form of a small explosion. The beam itself lasts for only a short duration, creating a searing flash of light and distinctive snap or crack sound as air is ionised.).

They actually are more like blasters.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its still more efficient at killing SM than a lasgun because it ignores PA, being hotter (and apparently firing faster, but there's no source on that, so...) means that reaching the point where the target becomes ''maleable'' is reached a lot faster

Also has more energy per shot, makes exploding limbs and vaporizing the part hit easier.

Mind you, it ignoring PA is a game mechanic. It is capable of piercing PA for sure, I'll buy that. But can you dig up a source that tells me how it ignores it altogether?

Ty.

As for overrated weapons, the Heavy Bolter is deadly for sure, but as soon as you get to anything more armoured than Carapace Armour, it starts to have trouble punching through. It is still efficient against, say, SoB, since the sheer concussion created by a large amount of massive calibre explosive mini-rockets can break bones and squash organs, but Marines and things like very heavily armoured Orks are much more able to resist concussion. Of course, it is still not useless, just overrated. Just like the bolter VS PA, in fact. The damage is more out of concussion than actual penetrating-and-blowing-up.

The meltagun, in turn, is certainly deadly, but also commonly overrated. It has so short range so you'll need to ambush your target in order to gun him down before he guns you down, and with auspexes, autosenses, heat detectors, and all kinds of things being available, ambushing is not that easy in 40K unless you're Eldar or Tyranid (Or Imperial Assassin,..)

Lasguns I don't need to explain; a heat-based weapon versus a cheramic (Cheramics happen to be among the most heat-resistant materials there is, not to mention sci-fi super-ceramics) is using a weapon against its hard counter. You're going to need to target the soft armour to have any real effect, and even then, it's not that difficult to shield it, and even then, the very low-if-not-non-existent penetrative power of the lasgun makes it have a tough time even with the 'soft' armour (Which really isn't that soft when you think about it.)

Well its about the same thing, really, PA's not going to much help agaisn't a hellgun.

Just a note, 'hot-shot' lasgun refers to them being overcharged, not the literal heat of the laser blast. >>

The term 'hot-shot' originated from Gaunt's Ghosts, where it was solely used to refer to the overcharged single-shot power cells used in laser type sniper rifles.

Previous to the current Guard codex, Stormtroopers were armed with 'hellguns' that were little better than lasguns - AP6 instead of AP-.

2nd ED had hotshot lasgun at +1 str no AP

Afterwards they were always AP 5

And no we got the AP 3/short range

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just a note, 'hot-shot' lasgun refers to them being overcharged, not the literal heat of the laser blast. >>

The term 'hot-shot' originated from Gaunt's Ghosts, where it was solely used to refer to the overcharged single-shot power cells used in laser type sniper rifles.

Previous to the current Guard codex, Stormtroopers were armed with 'hellguns' that were little better than lasguns - AP6 instead of AP-.

And it' a laser.... a heat based weapons, where "charged" would mean literally hotter...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its about the same thing, really, PA's not going to much help agaisn't a hellgun.

It's certainly better than nothing. But again; while PA may be less useful, the dude inside is very capable of resisting the shot itself due to the comparatively low stopping power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's actually disturbing how much resilience in general in 40k is underestimated. It has scaled FAR better than offense has, which is why melee units are so surprisingly common. After all, the tougher a melee unit is, the greater the chance that it reaches melee, where it is firmly in advantage. Guardsmen is one thing, we humans have very fragile bodies and their armour does not even go below the upper torso. But 'nids, daemons, orks and mahreens, all are hideously difficult to kill. Not to mention Necrons...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its about the same thing, really, PA's not going to much help agaisn't a hellgun.

It's certainly better than nothing. But again; while PA may be less useful, the dude inside is very capable of resisting the shot itself due to the comparatively low stopping power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's actually disturbing how much resilience in general in 40k is underestimated. It has scaled FAR better than offense has. Guardsmen is one thing, we humans havw very fragile bodies and their armour does not even go below the upper torso. But 'nids, daemons, orks and mahreens, all are hideously difficult to kill. Not to mention Necrons...

Actually, humans are incredibly tough and durable in real life. The about W40K is that nearly everyone else is built like a Grizzly Bear.

Everything is proportional. We still die to a bullet, while most things in 40k doesn't.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Everything is proportional. We still die to a bullet, while most things in 40k doesn't.

Actually you can survive a bullet pretty well, depending where it hits.

I think there was someone who has survived being shot about two hundred times? Can't remember exactly.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Everything is proportional. We still die to a bullet, while most things in 40k doesn't.

Actually you can survive a bullet pretty well, depending where it hits.

I think there was someone who has survived being shot about two hundred times? Can't remember exactly.

Not a 40k bullet, you won't.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Everything is proportional. We still die to a bullet, while most things in 40k doesn't.

Actually you can survive a bullet pretty well, depending where it hits.

I think there was someone who has survived being shot about two hundred times? Can't remember exactly.

Not a 40k bullet, you won't.

Considering the only 'bullets' still used are in autoguns and stubb guns, they actually might.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
As for overrated weapons, the Heavy Bolter is deadly for sure, but as soon as you get to anything more armoured than Carapace Armour, it starts to have trouble punching through. It is still efficient against, say, SoB, since the sheer concussion created by a large amount of massive calibre explosive mini-rockets can break bones and squash organs, but Marines and things like very heavily armoured Orks are much more able to resist concussion. Of course, it is still not useless, just overrated. Just like the bolter VS PA, in fact. The damage is more out of concussion than actual penetrating-and-blowing-up.

But wouldn't the bolts it's throwing be as effectice as those from standard bolters? Moreso, I would think, as heavy bolters fire quicker, so that means more bolters going into the enemy. And the bolter must be reasonably effective aginast power armour, since that's what Marines use to fight each other, and that seems to be effective enough.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The meltagun, in turn, is certainly deadly, but also commonly overrated. It has so short range so you'll need to ambush your target in order to gun him down before he guns you down, and with auspexes, autosenses, heat detectors, and all kinds of things being available, ambushing is not that easy in 40K unless you're Eldar or Tyranid (Or Imperial Assassin,..)

Does that make it "overrated", though? Like, I don't think that a shotgun would be deemed "overrated" just because it's short-ranged. Rather, it's got a more more specific way to use it. And when it's in effective range, the melta is a horribly powerful weapon.

Also, one needn't rely on ambush to use it. It would also be useful facing an enemy charge, or when charging yourself (using 40K battlefield logic on that one), Even then, one needn't be a master of stealth to use it. Dominions are good with them, and they're just outflanking the enemy and then charging at them.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Lasguns I don't need to explain; a heat-based weapon versus a cheramic (Cheramics happen to be among the most heat-resistant materials there is, not to mention sci-fi super-ceramics) is using a weapon against its hard counter. You're going to need to target the soft armour to have any real effect, and even then, it's not that difficult to shield it, and even then, the very low-if-not-non-existent penetrative power of the lasgun makes it have a tough time even with the 'soft' armour (Which really isn't that soft when you think about it.)

Putting aside the debate on whether lasguns can damage ceramite armour or not (from my POV, it seems to be something that varies between writers anyway), I'd still call it a pretty great weapon for facing more "standard" targets, such as human rebels, Ork hordes or Tyranids.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
In truth, fiction gets terribly bland without some plot armor. Also, the term tends to be thrown around, as you note, far to much.

What about those counter-examples ? Which, obviously, include Games of Throne/A Song of Ice and Fire, which is pretty popular.

Game of Thrones is not a counter example, it is a perfect example.

Ok. So, Greek tragedy then ? Everyone is dead at the end ! Those have Reverse Plot Armor, actually.
Or The Coast Guard ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
In truth, fiction gets terribly bland without some plot armor. Also, the term tends to be thrown around, as you note, far to much.

What about those counter-examples ? Which, obviously, include Games of Throne/A Song of Ice and Fire, which is pretty popular.

Game of Thrones is not a counter example, it is a perfect example.

Ok. So, Greek tragedy then ? Everyone is dead at the end ! Those have Reverse Plot Armor, actually.
Or The Coast Guard ?

Macbeth is a good example.