BATFE Raid in California

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**cincydooley**

whembly wrote:
Heh... well, at least gun ownership is a Civil Right in the US. We can keep fighting it (legally that is).

Well, can we?

Ares tried to do that. Won. And This is still happening....

**Raven911**

I've worked with several of the alphabet agencies and I have to say that the BATFE are the biggest bunch of unprofessional jerks I have ever met.

Btw, do you guys know that the IRS has a fully. Equipped SWAT team? Federal agencies have also raided dairy farms for selling raw milk, and Gibson Guitars for using wood that wasn't processed a certain way that they required.

This is happening more and more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

cincydooley wrote:
whembly wrote:
Heh... well, at least gun ownership is a Civil Right in the US. We can keep fighting it (legally that is).

Well, can we?

Ares tried to do that. Won. And This is still happening....

Any gun company that stays in Kalifornia deserves what it gets. Smith and Wesson and Ruger are leaving the state, Magpul up and left their restrictive state, and Baretta is looking to leave Maryland as well. Texas and South Carolina are more than willing to give them new homes!

**d-usa**

SickSix wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
The videos of the raid on YouTube are, quite frankly, a little unsettling.

They pried the door open.

They sledgehammer open the safe.

Ares Armor has done nothing illegal.....

And no one will go to jail from the ATF. Even after a court determines Ares did nothing wrong.

Nobody that serves and executes a lawful warrant goes to jail if the party that was served is innocent and no evidence to charge them is found.

**Co'tor Shas**

d-usa wrote:
SickSix wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
The videos of the raid on YouTube are, quite frankly, a little unsettling.

They pried the door open.

They sledgehammer open the safe.

Ares Armor has done nothing illegal.....

And no one will go to jail from the ATF. Even after a court determines Ares did nothing wrong.

Nobody that serves and executes a lawful warrant goes to jail if the party that was served is innocent and no evidence to charge them is found.

It's why we still have a police force

.

**d-usa**

And you should be able to investigate for crimes to see if there is evidence of a crime there. If you have probable cause to get the warrant then there is zero reason why you should be punished if it turns out no crime were occurring.

Now we need transparency to know that nobody is making up BS probable cause arguments which can be a problem with a lot of the secret court crap we got going on right now, but agents executing the warrant shouldn't be punished because Agent PowerBoner lied to the judge about the probable cause.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

What could the BATFE do with the list of customers?

**Relapse**

whembly wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
whembly wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
whembly wrote:
Uh huh... so, you still attacking the author? Under what basis then?

It's Kan. The basis is that they are not Democrats

And the fact that there was a CDC report that was commissioned by Prez Obama on this.

It didn't fit the narrative,so the administration buried it.

Wait, what? I probably missed it but where does is say that?

Here's the actual study:
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=R1
It's actually compiled by the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDCP), via an EO by Obama.

Key points:
-Armed citizens are less likely to be injured by an attacker
-Defensive uses of guns are common
-Mass shootings and accidental firearm deaths account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths, and both are declining
-“Interventions” (i.e, gun control) such as background checks, so-called assault rifle bans and gun-free zones produce “mixed” results
-Gun buyback/turn-in programs are “ineffective” in reducing crime
-Stolen guns and retail/gun show purchases account for very little crime
-The vast majority of gun-related deaths are not homicides, but suicides
-It did find that “The U.S. rate of firearm-related homicide is higher than that of any other industrialized country: 19.5 times higher than the rates in other high-income countries.” However, there are numerous articles pointing out this interesting fact: If figures are excluded from such anti-gun bastions as Illinois, California, New Jersey and Washington, D.C., “The homicide rate in the United States would be in line with any other country.” Although... LA and MS still exhibit high firearm homicides. To me, that's a *mixed* bag result as well.

Here's the link to the CDC statistics to back up what you say about homicides as opposed to numbers for suicides:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

**NuggzTheNinja**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
What could the BATFE do with the list of customers?

Order people to return them, confiscate them, or kick in their doors, shoot their dogs, and haul them off to jail. I'm sure some idiot will tell me I've got my tin foil on too tight, but cops often shoot the dogs when they kick in the WRONG door. No reason to think they won't in cases where they're at the "correct" address.

The whole point of an 80% lower is that nobody knows you have it.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
What could the BATFE do with the list of customers?

Order people to return them, confiscate them, or kick in their doors, shoot their dogs, and haul them off to jail. I'm sure some idiot will tell me I've got my tin foil on too tight, but cops often shoot the dogs when they kick in the WRONG door. No reason to think they won't in cases where they're at the "correct" address.

The whole point of an 80% lower is that nobody knows you have it.

Ah, wasn't sure on the legality of the lower, although BATFE is hoping that someone has milled those and turned it functional, or else it's still legal, correct?

**Ouze**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
[Ah, wasn't sure on the legality of the lower, although BATFE is hoping that someone has milled those and turned it functional, or else it's still legal, correct?

It remains legal even once it's been milled and turned functional unless you are otherwise prohibited from owning firearms. Whether you 3d print it, carve it from wood, buy a AK flat or an 80% AR receiver and finish it yourself with a dremel tool/drill/CNC, it's all lawful.

**Relapse**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
What could the BATFE do with the list of customers?

Order people to return them, confiscate them, or kick in their doors, shoot their dogs, and haul them off to jail. I'm sure some idiot will tell me I've got my tin foil on too tight, but cops often shoot the dogs when they kick in the WRONG door. No reason to think they won't in cases where they're at the "correct" address.

The whole point of an 80% lower is that nobody knows you have it.

Ruby Ridge Tactica 101. Shooting women holding babies is a favorite,also.

**Ouze**

And so the other half of the story comes to light.

People have gotten a up in arms – metaphorically speaking, so far – over the situation with Ares Armor, and on the surface the agitation seems justified. The ATF busts into a business that sells legal 80% lowers in violation of a court issued restraining order? Consider the internet’s jimmies sufficiently rustled. But with some new documents that have been released by the Department of Justice, it’s starting to look like the investigation of Ares Armor is about something more than just selling hunks of metal. And if the documents are right, someone is about to be in a world of hurt . . .

An 80% lower is, in a legal sense, just a hunk of metal. It’s not a complete firearm, so it isn’t treated like one. It’s no more a firearm than a block of marble is a work of art by Michelangelo. But it has enough of the rough dimensions of an AR-15 lower receiver that finishing the project and turning it into a functional gun is almost trivial — drill a couple of holes, mill a few locations, and presto, you have yourself a gun.

Manufacturing 80% lower receivers isn’t illegal. You can even ship them anywhere you want to whomever you want, since, again, it’s just a hunk of metal and not technically a gun. But manufacturing firearms for sale to the public without a license is a HUGE no-no. And if the affadavit for the search warrant is accurate, then that’s exactly what some people in California were doing.

To be clear, the following describes activities of people who are NOT Ares Armor. Specifically, the following details the business practices of LCG AR Part and Custom Accessories in California. But it gives some insight into what the ATF thinks was going down in Ares Armor’s back room.

On March 19, 2013, an undercover law enforcement officer (“UC#1”) visited LCG AR Parts and Custom Accessories (“LCG”) [ED: NOT Ares Armor], located at 8524 Florin Road, Sacramento (Attachment A-1). LCG is a small gun parts store located within a larger commercial plaster retail store. At LCG, UC#1 was met by MICHAEL TURNER. UC#1 asked TURNER about firearms. TURNER informed UC#1 that UC#1 could purchase an AR-15 blank at LCG and “mill it out” in the back of the shop the same day – essentially creating a firearm from scratch.

[...]

On April 3, 2013, UC#1 met TURNER at LCG. UC#1 removed an AR-15-style pistol off the display wall of LCG and explained that he wanted to model the pistol after the one on display. TURNER handed UC#1 an AR-15 blank that was made of aluminum. UC#1 asked how long it takes to make the AR-15 blank into a firearm. TURNER informed UC#1 that such a firearm could be made in about two hours. TURNER informed UC#1 that UC#1 would drill five holes and then “Jimmy” would “clean it up.” TURNER is pictured below in a screenshot from the video recorded by UC#1.

TURNER identified “Jimmy” (individual later identified as EMILIANO CORTEZ) and indicated UC#1 should follow EMILIANO CORTEZ. EMILIANO CORTEZ and TURNER guided UC#1 out of the firearm shop (located within the plastering business) towards the back of the business. Upon arriving at the rear of the business, TURNER told UC#1 that EMILIANO CORTEZ was going to set the AR-15 blank into a “jig.”

TURNER informed UC#1 that UC#1 would have to drill five holes in the AR-15 blank, and then EMILIANO CORTEZ would mill the remainder to complete the receiver. UC#1 was directed to use a drill press and instructed how to operate the drill press – in essence, UC#1 was operating the drill press as a surrogate for EMILIANO CORTEZ – EMILIANO CORTEZ directed each and every move made by UC#1. EMILIANO CORTEZ would motion to the UC#1 when to stop and reposition the AR-15 blank. Subsequently, TURNER took UC#1 back to the front of LCG and informed UC#1 that EMILIANO CORTEZ would finish the receiver within the next hour and a half.

[...]

According to the Department of Homeland Security, EMILIANO CORTEZ is a Mexican national who has previously been deported and is illegally present within the United States. Further, EMILIANO CORTEZ is a convicted felon. In 2010, in Nevada County, California, EMILIANO CORTEZ was convicted of possession of an assault weapon and sentenced to sixteen months in prison.

[...]

Several minutes later, CI#1 departed from LCG in possession of an AR-15 pistol, two boxes of ammunition, and a large-capacity magazine. At no point was CI#1 required to fill out a background check form or complete any paperwork that is required by ATF prior to the purchase of a firearm.

I’m gonna be honest — this doesn’t sound good for those involved.

So from the documents, it looks like these guys (LCG AR Parts and Custom Accessories, or “LCG”) employed an illegal Mexican immigrant who’s also a felon to assist customers in manufacturing firearms on the business’s premises. The employee in question allegedly would set the blank up in the drill press, instruct the customer in drilling out the holes, then then take it from there.

Around the time of the investigation, the ATF issued a response to Ares Armor’s request for clarification about the same practice — “assisting” others in milling out their 80% lower receivers. And according to the ATF, a federal firearms license is required for “a business premises at which, for a fee, it makes available a computer numeric control (CNC) machine, tools, equipment, and instructions to persons who bring in castings or raw materials for the purpose of creating firearms.” In short, what was happening in the back of LCG’s shop was, according to the ATF, illegal.

After the clarification was issued, LGS seems to have had an “OH gak” moment and tried to clean up its act. Tried.

On April 25, 2013, CI#1 visited LCG and purchased two AR-15 blanks from LUIS CORTEZ. CI#1 inquired about converting the AR-15 blanks into firearms. TURNER advised CI#1 that they [LCG] were no longer going to machine and drill AR-15 blanks into completed lower receivers and that CI#1 was going to have to do it. TURNER continued that this change was because of a “DOJ” announcement stating that it was illegal for them to show customers how to do the machining and drilling and be paid for it.

[...]

When CI#1 approached LUIS CORTEZ about the information provided by TURNER, LUIS CORTEZ advised that his brother (EMILIANO CORTEZ) was afraid to touch “the machine” (referring to the machine used to mill the AR-15 blanks). LUIS CORTEZ informed CI#1 that numerous customers had been calling and LUIS CORTEZ had informed them that he no longer did “it” anymore (referring to the machining and drilling of AR-15 blanks).

I’ll spare you the gory details, but after the letter came out it looks like LCG started putting people in touch with third parties who performed the same service that had previously been done on-site. People whom the adjective “sketchy” doesn’t begin to describe.

DOCUMENT: Indictment

DOCUMENT: Search Warrant Affadavit

While Ares Armor isn’t specifically mentioned in these documents as having taken part in any felonious shenanigans, it’s obvious that the ATF thinks that they might have been up to the same tricks as LCG. Especially since Ares Armor asked the ATF about this specific practice, connecting the dots in the feds’ line of thinking isn’t too hard. Ares had even started advertising for a possible “build party” for people to finish their 80% lowers, which would have been in direct violation of the clarification the ATF provided about needing an FFL to assist in 80% builds.

At this time there’s no hard and fast evidence that Ares Armor has done anything wrong. There’s not a shred of doubt that some California gun owners are about to head to the federal slammer for their roles in this debacle, but barring any surprise discoveries it looks like Ares Armor might be in the clear. Then again, that could all change based on what the ATF unearths in the records they confiscated over the weekend.

Stay tuned — we’ll be watching as the situation unfolds.

**Dreadclaw69**

So quick question, which is more dangerous and deserving of the ATF's attention:
1) 80% lower receivers that need final machining bought in accordance with the law
2) Assault rifles and military hardware being given to Cartel members

**Desubot**

Wait so AA is in trouble because it asked about this practice to ATF?

Thats enough for a reasonable search??

Damn better never talk to a government agency

**Ouze**

My speculation is that AA is probably the supplier to the other guys, as well as (maybe) accessories to it.

**NuggzTheNinja**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
What could the BATFE do with the list of customers?

Order people to return them, confiscate them, or kick in their doors, shoot their dogs, and haul them off to jail. I'm sure some idiot will tell me I've got my tin foil on too tight, but cops often shoot the dogs when they kick in the WRONG door. No reason to think they won't in cases where they're at the "correct" address.

The whole point of an 80% lower is that nobody knows you have it.

Ah, wasn't sure on the legality of the lower, although BATFE is hoping that someone has milled those and turned it functional, or else it's still legal, correct?

That all depends on who is doing the milling.

You can buy an 80% receiver and finish it yourself at home. This is basically you making a firearm. There are jigs and stuff available, and people have "build parties." You can do similar things with AK receiver flats if you want an AK-pattern rifle.

If the store sells you the unfinished receiver and pretty much does the work for you, that's a problem. There were issues with companies selling 80% receivers and letting customers "push the button" in-store so to speak, to finish the receivers. This is viewed by the ATF as that entity selling firearms without the appropriate documentation and NICS check.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Ouze wrote:
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
[Ah, wasn't sure on the legality of the lower, although BATFE is hoping that someone has milled those and turned it functional, or else it's still legal, correct?

It remains legal even once it's been milled and turned functional unless you are otherwise prohibited from owning firearms. Whether you 3d print it, carve it from wood, buy a AK flat or an 80% AR receiver and finish it yourself with a dremel tool/drill/CNC, it's all lawful.

Ah! Thank you and Nuggz for the info!

**Dreadclaw69**

So selling a legal product to a third party, who you have no control over, and who take it upon themselves to do something illegal is now reasonable cause to have your property raided?

The privacy of law abiding citizens and a law abiding company have been violated on the basis of a fishing expedition by the ATF.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Desubot wrote:
Wait so AA is in trouble because it asked about this practice to ATF?

Thats enough for a reasonable search??

Damn better never talk to a government agency

I'm starting to think that the appropriate responses are;
- you are trespassing on private property
- may I see your warrant
- I have nothing to say until my counsel is present

**Ouze**

Well, they weren't trespassing because they DID have a warrant. So far as saying nothing until counsel is available, that's good advice that everyone should follow regardless of the situation.

**Tannhauser42**

Just to reemphasize this line from the above article:

Ares had even started advertising for a possible “build party” for people to finish their 80% lowers, which would have been in direct violation of the clarification the ATF provided about needing an FFL to assist in 80% builds.

So, no, Ares is not being investigated "just because" they asked about the practice or "just because" they sold to a third party, but because they may have been about to do the same thing themselves.

**Jehan-reznor**

Why doesn't the BATFE ask the NSA for the customer list?

**Dreadclaw69**

Ouze wrote:
Well, they weren't trespassing because they DID have a warrant. So far as saying nothing until counsel is available, that's good advice that everyone should follow regardless of the situation.

I was talking in general terms, not just confined to this incident

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tannhauser42 wrote:
Just to reemphasize this line from the above article:

Ares had even started advertising for a possible “build party” for people to finish their 80% lowers, which would have been in direct violation of the clarification the ATF provided about needing an FFL to assist in 80% builds.

So, no, Ares is not being investigated "just because" they asked about the practice or "just because" they sold to a third party, but because they may have been about to do the same thing themselves.

And that necessitated an armed raid as opposed to a legal notice prohibiting them from holding the event?

**d-usa**

-they sold supplies to people that participated in illegal activities.
-It seems likely that this was a pattern with people that purchased from them.
-They may have even been working on doing stuff like that themselves.
-Their sales lists would be useful evidence in the cases against those other parties, so even if they didn't do anything wrong themselves the law had a valid interest in it.
-They talked to them about it and asked for corporation, they didn't get any.
-They got a warrant and served it.
-Was the raid warranted? Most likely, because the people served knew exactly what they were looking for. If you did the polite knock and chit-chat they would already know what you are there for and it would be easy to "get lost in a boating accident". Since they knew exactly what they are here for you minimize the opportunity to launch a boat.

**Frazzled**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
What could the BATFE do with the list of customers?

Kick in all their doors and arrest the ones they don't shoot for having illegal firearms. Its not like they haven't done this over and over and over.

**SickSix**

d-usa wrote:
SickSix wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
The videos of the raid on YouTube are, quite frankly, a little unsettling.

They pried the door open.

They sledgehammer open the safe.

Ares Armor has done nothing illegal.....

And no one will go to jail from the ATF. Even after a court determines Ares did nothing wrong.

Nobody that serves and executes a lawful warrant goes to jail if the party that was served is innocent and no evidence to charge them is found.

How about when the cops break the law and violate the rights of the accused?

**Dreadclaw69**

d-usa wrote:
-they sold supplies to people that participated in illegal activities.

They sold a lawful item to people who then broke the law. Did they have prior knowledge that the law was being broken?

d-usa wrote:
-It seems likely that this was a pattern with people that purchased from them.

Did Aries have prior knowledge of these activities? Were they under a duty not to sell the receivers?

d-usa wrote:
-They may have even been working on doing stuff like that themselves.

Which is a no no. However that can easily be remedied by a warning letter/legal notice, or by having agents stop in to talk with the owner.

d-usa wrote:
-Their sales lists would be useful evidence in the cases against those other parties, so even if they didn't do anything wrong themselves the law had a valid interest in it.

You must have a different belief as to what constitutes a reasonable search. If they just wanted a list of customer names then why seize the 80% receivers? In fact why carry out the raid at all? The courts could have legally compelled Ares to hand over a copy of the list concerning the parties that were already under investigation. Demanding the entire customer list may seem excessive, especially as the list is likely to contain the names of law abiding citizens.

d-usa wrote:
-They talked to them about it and asked for corporation, they didn't get any.

Not sure what you're trying to say here

d-usa wrote:
-They got a warrant and served it.

Factually accurate

d-usa wrote:
-Was the raid warranted? Most likely, because the people served knew exactly what they were looking for. If you did the polite knock and chit-chat they would already know what you are there for and it would be easy to "get lost in a boating accident". Since they knew exactly what they are here for you minimize the opportunity to launch a boat.

I believe that the raid was heavy handed and unnecessary. Aries had not, it appears, broken any laws when the ATF carried out their raid. As pointed out above there were many, less intrusive approaches that the ATF could have taken.
There should be no need to "launch a boat" when the items being sold are perfectly legal to begin with, even according to the ATF themselves

**Ahtman**

dreadclaw69 wrote:Did they have prior knowledge that the law was being broken?

Sounds like something one would need to investigate, or get a warrant to probe further.

dreadclaw69 wrote:Did Aries have prior knowledge of these activities?

Sounds like something one would need to investigate, or get a warrant to probe further.

dreadclaw69 wrote:Which is a no no. However that can easily be remedied by a warning letter/legal notice, or by having agents stop in to talk with the owner.

It is also just as likely they would lie about not doing it or lie about stopping it. Sounds like something one would need to investigate, or get a warrant to probe further.

dreadclaw69 wrote:why seize the 80% receivers? In fact why carry out the raid at all?

Why not wait for all the facts of the case to come out? Why jump to conclusions either way?

dreadclaw69 wrote:I believe that the raid was heavy handed and unnecessary.

Which of course means feth all since we don't have enough information to go on at this point.

Spoiler:

**Seaward**

Ahtman wrote:
Which of course means feth all since we don't have enough information to go on at this point.

So we're basically the ATF, is what you're saying.

**Kavik_Whitescar**

kronk wrote:
Sounds like a bunch of d-bags with badges.

Badges tend to create D-bags

**KalashnikovMarine**

It is worth pointing out that build parties are perfectly legal, possibly advertising such for a third party seems to be the greatest crime AA has committed.

I also highly doubt LCG is buying 80% lowers or honestly much of anything from Ares, single stores like that live and die by their brand (Ares that is) so keeping a tight control on their product is in their best interest, they also don't have the economy of scale to make manufacturing lowers, even stopping at 80% reasonable, which drastically raises the costs of reselling them to other stores. Far more likely LCG had their own direct account.

Final note, something smells kinda bullgakky above. All the original info above suggested ATF was raiding AA over a certain brand of lower, documentation provided by AA to a California state judge, who then granted a restraining order also supports this. So... where'd this extra pile of implications come from?