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Correction I think at some point in time I also used it as the draconian doomsday scenario that we want to avoid.

 schadenfreude wrote:
626 and 77 You guys are making good points on why a 12 charge cap is a bad idea, but the idea never gained traction here. All I ever did with the idea of a 12 warp charge limit is use it as a bad idea benchmark to compare other bad ideas to.

Apologies - I never meant to imply that you were part of the "let's nerf Daemons into the ground because 'psychics = OP!1!!!1!" crowd.
Rather I was trying to simply point how utterly nonsensical and moronic a 12 Warp Charge cap would really be by pointing out just how quickly those charges can run out!

As a Tzeentch Daemon player, my psychics have gotten much, much worse overall.

Back in 6th, my 'psychic phase' would look like:
- Tzherald #1 casts Prescience
- Horrors cast Lv3 Flickering Fire
- Tzherald casts Lv2 Flickering Fire

- Tzherald #2 casts Prescience, Forewarning & Misfortune
- Horrors cast Lv3 Flickering Fire

- LoC casts Precognition, then Prescience on nearby Screamers
- LoC casts Misfortune on unit Flamers are about to light up!

That same set-up now is a total of D6 + 15 WC's. None of those powers will be single diced, meaning instead of getting a near guaranteed 10 powers off, I'm now looking at a solid shot of getting 5-7 of those powers off.
And my opponent now has a difficult choice to make too; they can save their smaller amount of dice and try to go after a couple of my buffs, something they had no ability to previously attempt! Or they can spend their dice on the potentially much easier to dispel shooting attacks/Maledictions.



Unfortunately, the Chicken Little crowd enjoys staying utterly ignorant of the changes while just decrying "Daemons broke 7th edition - AGAIN! lolzlolzlol!!"

Oddly enough it became possible to stop blessings and much harder overall to deny.

So if you go pure offense daemons things are actually much better for you. If they are light on psychic defenses then you will quickly reach the point where they have ZERO defenses against your casting where as before they always had a 16.6% chance to stop any power. In addition the more powerful the spell, the less able they are to stop it since instead of just needing one 6, they now need multiple 6s

So I find it funny how all the focus is on summoning as being game breaking when everything else seems more powerful to me.

 Leth wrote:
Oddly enough it became possible to stop blessings and much harder overall to deny.

So if you go pure offense daemons things are actually much better for you. If they are light on psychic defenses then you will quickly reach the point where they have ZERO defenses against your casting where as before they always had a 16.6% chance to stop any power. In addition the more powerful the spell, the less able they are to stop it since instead of just needing one 6, they now need multiple 6s

So I find it funny how all the focus is on summoning as being game breaking when everything else seems more powerful to me.

Alright I am gonna share some BS that I came up with that seems scarier to me than ANYTHING summoning based.

Cursed earth+Sanctuary = Grim on all units within 12.

There now bitch about that instead.

The real trick is going to simply be pulling a page from Fantasy's tactics; figure out which power your opponent is most scared of seeing go off this turn, cast it early and force them to blow their dispel dice, then go cast the powers you wanting all along!

I think this is where Malefic is at it's most powerful honestly - use it purely as the bluff spell lore!

I've found after my first few games that my Tzeentch army is still at its overall best when sticking to the tricks that made it click last edition - namely Divination and Biomancy with a sprinkling of Flickering Fires.
The really awesome part I've been finding though is that Horrors have gained a tone of utility now that they get Chaos Focus! No more choosing between Flickering Fire or Bolt, plus they can now use Infernal Gateway!

The issue with throwing a power early is that unless you get it off they don't need to deny it so if it is WC 2 or 3 you are throwing a lot of dice at it, and you fail you get screwed, if you throw only a few dice at it and fail then you just waste dice.

It is also not that much harder to stop targeted powers, especially if you had any buffs to your deny.

Essentially it became infinitely easier to deny a blessing this edition.

IT became easier to deny targeted powers in some cases (things that barely succeed can get more dice thrown at them.)

It became hard to deny things if your opponent succeeds by a lot.

So say I throw a WC 1 Flicker fire. IN 6th against a non-psyker this was denied 16% of the time.

Now if I only succeed with one 4+ it is much easier for my opponent to deny assuming he still has dice because he can throw 2+ dice at it.

Now if I throw it with 3 or more 4+ rolls, it becomes difficult to deny without luck, or buffs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which means that throwing more dice is good as the caster, but then you cast fewer powers and perils more often.

Breng77 wrote:
The issue with throwing a power early is that unless you get it off they don't need to deny it so if it is WC 2 or 3 you are throwing a lot of dice at it, and you fail you get screwed, if you throw only a few dice at it and fail then you just waste dice.

It is also not that much harder to stop targeted powers, especially if you had any buffs to your deny.

Essentially it became infinitely easier to deny a blessing this edition.

IT became easier to deny targeted powers in some cases (things that barely succeed can get more dice thrown at them.)

It became hard to deny things if your opponent succeeds by a lot.

So say I throw a WC 1 Flicker fire. IN 6th against a non-psyker this was denied 16% of the time.

Now if I only succeed with one 4+ it is much easier for my opponent to deny assuming he still has dice because he can throw 2+ dice at it.

Now if I throw it with 3 or more 4+ rolls, it becomes difficult to deny without luck, or buffs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which means that throwing more dice is good as the caster, but then you cast fewer powers and perils more often.

I've found so far that while I'm casting fewer things, I'm having stuff denied with far lower frequency. Especially when the opponent runs out of dispel dice and I can essentially free cast everything with no chance to Deny. Coupled with the ability to fire witchfires from the same source at different targets in addition to using any shooting attacks (if the Chaos Gods grant me any at the beginning of the game) and I don't think Daemons have lost too much shooting ability.

I'm still playing a Flying Circus build, although I've tweaked it a bit to add some more WC. I still play it mostly the same, I fly around and shoot and kill stuff, then land when I've made it safe to do so and the Princes kill what's left in CC. If I get Invisibility then a Prince lands and starts wrecking stuff a bit early.