Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tsilber wrote:
Cmon People... really. We need to read it or find a new hobby lol. Because this misconstrue of the rules time and time again and the need to argue the greyest and vaguest ideas we can possible think off is tiresome, especially in most cases just to argue....
T.O.'s and GW executives musty have good laughs. I would love for GW to print a new book. " GW hobbiest say the dumbest things"

Also I am not saying it doesnt exist, and not being cryptic with this next part but I did not see in the new rule book "Codex trumps rulebook", so im not sure that argument is valid either... I did not bother to look for it because a new rule book printed in reference to older books, using a sentence with 'ALL' in it, should be clear cut and dry. Shame on me for thinking so i guess.... well not really.

The new rule book clearly says. " All psykers can generate powers from demonology"... PERIOD. I think the only grey area that could even be an argument is if a psyker doesnt generate powers like Bel'Akor, he just knows X,Y,Z. The new rules says "Grey Knights know demonology in addition" . So this covers them, then the psychic vehicle covers rhinos. Again No FAQ required, stop thinking GW is out to get us or confuse or hurt us in some way.

Reading the New Rulebook + common sense + sportsmanship = fun 40k.

Also FYI
Blackmoor is correct and has spelled it out pretty easily.
I personally think Tyrannids and Necrons got biggest buffs in this new rules set, 2 armies that can't cast deamonology.

And in the end i wouldnt be upset or dissapointed however they nerfed, ruled or tweeked deamonology personally. My Daemon army that I won Tempelcon with does not change a single point with the new rules, Wont even bother with Daemonology.

After going through the new powers charts, I'm beginning to think that Malefic is kind of a trap for DoC anyways!

The LoC is still better off with Divination due to the likes of Forewarning, Precog & Misfortune. In a mono-Tzeentch army, thanks to the existence of cheap Exalted Flamers in HQ now, Foreboding has gained as the Ex.Flamer can shoot his S9/ap2 at full BS, while Scrier's Gaze is now solid for combo'ing with Icon/Instrument shenanigans and also helps to protect against bad draws in Maelstrom missions.

Keepers will prefer to keep Telepathy for obvious reasons.

Princes are just plain insane with the Biomancy re-work! Holy feth, imagine for a minute Iron Arm and/or Warpspeed combo'd with the Eternal Beatstick - enjoy that 5 + 3 + D3 attack monster! (potentially at S10 to boot!)
Endurance is plain gross, especially if Iron Arm is in play.
Life Leach is a nifty way to keep healing a wound/Psychic phase, and with likely Mastery Lv3, it's not that easy to dispel either.

So maybe Heralds might wet their feet with Daemonology?

Overall I don't see too many established Daemon players really jumping ship to Malefic... sure Cursed Earth is awesome, but the lores we used throughout 6th edition are just a better all round toolbox, especially on the big guys.

To piggy back off hulks point. With people trying to optimize you are litterally one kill away from dropping a warp charge point from each unit. I think 5 marines can reliably do that, hell the drop pod might do it. With three drop pods coming in I can remove 6 warp charges with pretty good odds.

Or with bikes, or with other fast units. Or with barrage, maybe start taking mortars(just kidding....) I think IG can blow em up faster than you can spawn them. The point is now that its not kill troops win game mobility is going to be a huge part of this edition. Something the demon farm is not equiped to deal with.

I've been trying to look at the positive side as the internetosphere seems to be blowing up about the summoning thing.

1 - We finally have rules that will actually reflect a full blown 'Demonic Infestation'. Same goes for the other Horde armies, Like Nids, Orks, and IG. They are no longer as restricted by the FOC like in previous editions, and have access to more slots, even on a Battle-Forged lists.

I'm not disagreeing that there is a problem, but any proposed solution should keep this in mind, until we get word from GW.

2 - With the exception of the odd Batrep, or people fudging dice rolls to see what is possible, most of what I've been seeing has been theorycrafting/mathhammer. Several players have pointed out that the New Maelstrom missions can possibly curb the effectiveness of these lists.

3 - If there was ever a reason to allow 'Unbound' lists in Tourneys, then the abuse of summoning makes a good case for it. I was initially not happy with the whole concept of 'Unbound' lists, but with the Combo of 'Objective Secured' and the Maelstrom Missions, they may not always be the best choice. I think it might be possible that restricting Tourneys to 'Battle-Forged' only eliminates combinations that might be able to deal with it. Sure, this means Demons can also be 'Unbound', but they were going to win already right?

If after exhausting all the 'supported' methods, and getting some actual experience, which were not going to have as a community after one week of the rules being official, then we should try, as a community to find solutions. Like everyone else, I have thought about it, and here are some suggestions that I haven't seen, that might also work.

* Instead of restricting armies to X amount of Charges, or limit how many they can use per turn, why not limit the amount of dice that each psyker can use? Like ML+2 or +3 for example? This makes it difficult for ML1 psyker to manifest ML3 powers, as it probably should be. It also makes the higher costed powers riskier, even for ML3 psyker so because they won't be able to use all of the available charges to get a power off. This would also encourage mixing powers up, and not penalize players for building these 20+ Warp Charge lists and then saying they can only use a portion of them.

* Make Perils attack for each pair of 6s (or any pairs in the case of non demon, demonology). I have seen other people try to pass this off as the rule, I'm either not seeing it, or not interpreting the rule that way. It would make the risk of throwing more dice at a power go up as the potential for more perils would also go up. It would also drain some of the excess Warp Charges if the Eldar lists had to Ghosthelm multiple Perils.

* Instead of requiring 'Deny the Witch' to cancel ALL of the charges to cancel a power, make it so that they still have to have enough remaining Warp Charges to have successfully manifest the power. This would make the higher costed powers more easily interrupted, which makes sense since they would require more concentration. The downside to this is that targeted powers would also be easier to deny.

That's my 2 bits worth.

 Blackmoor wrote:

I am also not sure that summoning is broken. If you look at the batrep that everyone is pointing to as an example for how broken demons are they did not even win!!!

DUDE YOU ARE TOTALLLY STUPID STFU DEMONZ RZ BROKENZZZ!!!!

I love how everyone see's a couple bat reps, where I kid you not, every single damn roll the daemons wanted to make, gets made, and we see them constantly making ML3 power rolls on only 3 dice, and yet they still do not win, makes them totally OP...

seriously far too much chicken littling over this,

I have even seen people complaining about how "tough" t3/t4 5++ models are... seriously... I hope every demons player ever brings demon factory lists, because it is a far far worse list then screamerstar...

Brotherhood of psykers in the Daemon list get Daemonology now. So that's that answered.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Cmon People... really. We need to read it or find a new hobby lol. Because this misconstrue of the rules time and time again and the need to argue the greyest and vaguest ideas we can possible think off is tiresome, especially in most cases just to argue....
T.O.'s and GW executives musty have good laughs. I would love for GW to print a new book. " GW hobbiest say the dumbest things"

Also I am not saying it doesnt exist, and not being cryptic with this next part but I did not see in the new rule book "Codex trumps rulebook", so im not sure that argument is valid either... I did not bother to look for it because a new rule book printed in reference to older books, using a sentence with 'ALL' in it, should be clear cut and dry. Shame on me for thinking so i guess.... well not really.

The new rule book clearly says. " All psykers can generate powers from demonology"... PERIOD. I think the only grey area that could even be an argument is if a psyker doesnt generate powers like Bel'Akor, he just knows X,Y,Z. The new rules says "Grey Knights know demonology in addition" . So this covers them, then the psychic vehicle covers rhinos. Again No FAQ required, stop thinking GW is out to get us or confuse or hurt us in some way.

Reading the New Rulebook + common sense + sportsmanship = fun 40k.

Also FYI
Blackmoor is correct and has spelled it out pretty easily.
I personally think Tyrannids and Necrons got biggest buffs in this new rules set, 2 armies that can't cast deamonology.

And in the end i wouldnt be upset or dissapointed however they nerfed, ruled or tweeked deamonology personally. My Daemon army that I won Tempelcon with does not change a single point with the new rules, Wont even bother with Daemonology.

After going through the new powers charts, I'm beginning to think that Malefic is kind of a trap for DoC anyways!

The LoC is still better off with Divination due to the likes of Forewarning, Precog & Misfortune. In a mono-Tzeentch army, thanks to the existence of cheap Exalted Flamers in HQ now, Foreboding has gained as the Ex.Flamer can shoot his S9/ap2 at full BS, while Scrier's Gaze is now solid for combo'ing with Icon/Instrument shenanigans and also helps to protect against bad draws in Maelstrom missions.

Keepers will prefer to keep Telepathy for obvious reasons.

Princes are just plain insane with the Biomancy re-work! Holy feth, imagine for a minute Iron Arm and/or Warpspeed combo'd with the Eternal Beatstick - enjoy that 5 + 3 + D3 attack monster! (potentially at S10 to boot!)
Endurance is plain gross, especially if Iron Arm is in play.
Life Leach is a nifty way to keep healing a wound/Psychic phase, and with likely Mastery Lv3, it's not that easy to dispel either.

So maybe Heralds might wet their feet with Daemonology?

Overall I don't see too many established Daemon players really jumping ship to Malefic... sure Cursed Earth is awesome, but the lores we used throughout 6th edition are just a better all round toolbox, especially on the big guys.

The Bio doesnt really add any bang factor that you didnt get last addition.

Bloodthirster in 6th could generate 6+ attacks at Str 10 without using any spells before. 3 for smashing, + 1 for charging, + 1 for 2 weapons, +d3 for rampage. T6 none the less
And the DP from black legion could do the same, 3 attacks for smashing, + 1 charging, +d6 for deamon weapon. Add the skull for Eternal warrior on T5

But im with you, Deamonology seems cool and all, but to me it doesn't do much more than hope for good rolls on a phase to slow the game only to not accomplish anything else... only to summon a mediocre DP who gets shot on my opponents turn.

I watched a funny game over the weekend between DoC and Tyranids. The DoC player was running a huge pile of Khorne Dogs joined by two HoK on Juggernauts supported by four HoT, a LoC, and several units of Horrors.

The Tyranid player quit around turn four at which point the DoC player had two Bloodthirsters (one other had been killed) and two more HoT he didn't start with. The 'Nid player had already lost all his MC, and the DoC player had two more than he started with....haha.

IDK if it has been pointed out but the FAQ is up.

Every "psyker" or "brothehood of sorcerers" rule in CD can roll on the deamonology table in addition to the tables in their unit entry.

This means that they can take the Malefic Primaris Power for summoning.

That assumption that they could not use Deamonolgy because they pull from the Tzeentch table is now dead and buried.

Did they really add an Exalted Flamer of Tzeetch as an HQ unit for deamons, but forget to list him as a jump unit type?

How about just playing it as is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Summoner armies will simply take too long to play. Simply add the tournament rule of: Failure to play 4 turns is an auto loss for both players.

You can actually play a Summoning army fairly quickly if you know what orders your going in and have a easy reference to who has what powers for example using markers to denote who has which abilities It doesn't take hours in fact its more straight forward than most armies psychics. Its pretty much , Cast Cursed Earth, Cast Summon spells, put out daemons. Done. Icons and such allow Daemons to not scatter on deep strike so take those to skip a step.

Where it get's complicated is Flickering Fire.

An amusing match up would be a fiend heavy deamon list. Give one unit a 2+ invo an another unit invisibility with belekor. Then watch perils turn catastrophic when all the psykers go down to ld2.

I'm starting to think summoning is really good, but needs to be in moderation to avoid giving up midfield control in the early game.

Summoning is really off the chain. I think it should be 2d6 random akin to the nids abilities, but lower for smaller packs of demons(not 3d6). Also summoning a greater deamon should also cost a near by friendly unit with 6" to be Sacerficed (roll randomly if many are present, if no one can be sacrificed spell can't be casted. idea is to level pt costs a bit), summoning a herald should deal a wound to the caster and cost d3 wounds to a nearby unit no saves allowed.

This kinda makes me feel like the law of equal exchange is happening.

 schadenfreude wrote:
An amusing match up would be a fiend heavy deamon list. Give one unit a 2+ invo an another unit invisibility with belekor. Then watch perils turn catastrophic when all the psykers go down to ld2.

I'm starting to think summoning is really good, but needs to be in moderation to avoid giving up midfield control in the early game.

The don't go to leadership 2, only minus -1 leadership... I wish you were correct though..
Also do they even take the same kind of "leadership test" now? I though they just roll dice and need as many 4's as the spell requires warp charges. Only perils on double 6's in most cases.

As for summoning a DP, he is naked, no gifts, no armor, no wings. He is not that big of a deal. A lot of points and rolls and sacrifices just to get a naked DP. Might as well buy a winged dp in the army.

Tsilber wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
An amusing match up would be a fiend heavy deamon list. Give one unit a 2+ invo an another unit invisibility with belekor. Then watch perils turn catastrophic when all the psykers go down to ld2.

I'm starting to think summoning is really good, but needs to be in moderation to avoid giving up midfield control in the early game.

The don't go to leadership 2, only minus -1 leadership... I wish you were correct though..
Also do they even take the same kind of "leadership test" now? I though they just roll dice and need as many 4's as the spell requires warp charges. Only perils on double 6's in most cases.

As for summoning a DP, he is naked, no gifts, no armor, no wings. He is not that big of a deal. A lot of points and rolls and sacrifices just to get a naked DP. Might as well buy a winged dp in the army.

1) Its -1 Ld to Psykers, non-stacking. However it is -1 Ld all the time, so potentially you can use this to force leadership/morale tests...
2) Possession brings in a Greater Daemon, not a Daemon Prince.

There is a good legitimate debate if summoning is good for the meta. Please try to keep the conversation constructive.

Performed a massive edit on the OP to correct for FAQ rulings some of which I personally found surprising, but the FAQ is the FAQ. The new OP reads as follows.

Has malefic deamonology has broken the game? Lets have a calm conversation about it.

FAQ landed. Most questions answered.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

Remaining questions for a TO.

Does shadow in the warp and siren song from fiends effect leadership rolls on perils? I think most players are doing RAI yes. BAO FAQ previously ruled that the a -1 modifier from each fiend stacks, but other TO are free to disagree.


Herald 4 for 1 HQ is a 1 time deal. Most tournaments are doing a 2 book restriction on FOC with either a limit of 2 combined arms or a combined arm FOC + an allied FOC.

4 heralds with lvl3 , Fateweaver, and Be'Lakor is prohibitively expensive at 1030 points leaving the rest of the army vulnerable to an alpha strike or bum rush assault list. Warp storm and the grimiore of true names are unreliable and often a liability without fateweaver in the list. IMO Guaranteed invisibility from Be'Lakor is the most broken thing in 7th edition and the factory either has to give up Fateweaver, give up Be'Lakor, or be so overspent on 1,030+ points of HQ that it becomes very vulnerable to hard counters.

The linchpins of the factory is not the 3 warp charge primaris. It's the 1 warp charge cursed earth and sacrifice, specifically sacrifice. Gaining 2 warp charges, 2 rolls on the daemonolgy table, and 70 points of herald for 1 warp charge is far better than gaining 90 points of summoned deamons + an icon + an instrument for 3 warp charges. The multiple cursed earths giving the entire army a 4+ invo instead of a 5+ and the easy access to a 2++ rerollable invo on screamers with cursed earth and grimiore make it the other linchpin.

6 warp charge for primaris summoning is a very inefficient use of warp charges, but early in the game it ensures warp charges will never go to waste. Other armies with a lot of warp charges won't have a constructive use for half of their warp charges until turn 2 or turn 3.

The big question remains: Is the deamon factory broken?

If so the next question is what measures would be needed keep daemons in a tournament wihtout resorting to draconian measures like limiting warp charge pools.?

*So far one of the most constructive ideas is that an increase in KP as a secondary mission in more scenarios would help against deamons. It might also rebalance the meta if MSU starts to grow out of control. There is also the option of broad side bash type scenarios where every 3 KP yields 1 VP in objective based games.

Thanks to Hulksmash pointing out the 4 per 1 discount on heralds is a 1 time offer and Blackmoore for constructive feedback.

If a TO still believes that deamon factory is stupid OP my suggestion is to nerf sacrifice and require that the casting model be the one to be sacrificed on a perils of the warp. Sacrifice is a critical linchpin in the deamonic factory so a nerf to sacrifice would really hit the deamon factory where it hurts. I'm not convinced this is a necessary measure yet, but I am convinced it would really hurt deamons.

How about:
Daemons still perils on any
doubles if trying to conjour daemons of a different god?

 Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:

Summoner armies will simply take too long to play. Simply add the tournament rule of: Failure to play 4 turns is an auto loss for both players.

So you get punished for your opponent's army build/play style? Sounds fun!

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
Not only that but...
#1. You have a lower chance to cast your powers
#2. You are not damaging your opponent
#3. Your opponent is shooting you and crippling your warp charges
#4. You are going to eat a lot of PotW
#5. Grey Knights and Eldar will shut you down with DtW

You will find out that the demon bomb army is not as good as everyone thinks.

And with a ton of units you get the ability to shoot lots of units. Meaning you can cripple the herald/troop portions of a summoning farm fairly quickly and easily. Especially since they won't be shooting back at you.

Just something to consider.

Which is how my three games/lists focused on daemon conjuring have gone; I lost quite badly in each. A far larger sampling must be surveyed of course, but I already won't care if an opponent brings a conjuring list. Having played a conjuring list, my initial reaction is meh.

I am far concerned about the M missions, but that is another discussion.

Trasvi wrote:
How about:
Daemons still perils on any
doubles if trying to conjour daemons of a different god?

Or at least if a the cross god rivalry Tzeentch/Nurgle or Khorne/Slaanesh is attempted. It would be fluffy, but not that significant of a change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Butcha wrote:

 Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:

Summoner armies will simply take too long to play. Simply add the tournament rule of: Failure to play 4 turns is an auto loss for both players.

So you get punished for your opponent's army build/play style? Sounds fun!

Auto loss for both players if they don't complete 4 turns has been around for a while and is actually not that uncommon. Once that rule goes into place players either bring faster armies or step up their pace.

Deamons also don't have to be played slow. Initial set up is a bigger problems for deamons than conjuring. There are a lot of pro tricks like having checkboxes on your army lists for gifts and psychic powers to streamline set up. Most conjured units are CC only units so it's just a simple matter of deep strike and run.

Auto loss for both players if they don't complete 4 turns would only discourage players unfamiliar and slow with deamons from bringing them. It would actually effect horde lists like greentide or IG conscripts more than deamons.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? If faced with a choice I would much rather only summon one unit per turn. A 12 WC limit is absolutely crippling to an army that relies on Psychic Powers to do the vast majority of its shooting.

In the 7E games I've played so far I've had to make decisions about whether to buff an expensive unit (usually a Daemon Prince) or continue shooting. In 6E I could get all my buff off with more reliability and still be able to shoot almost every Psychic shooting attack I had.

I played vs the daemon factory 3 times now. I went against it at 2500 with Dark Angels Unbound, 1850 Noise Marine deluxe, and 1500 Imperial guard with Astral Claws allies. All three times was a serious wipe for the daemon player.

For the sake of the worst case scenario I did not attempt to deny the witch on my second and third games. If your players understand target priority then these lists are seriously not a problem. The only list I can see having issues is a slow short ranged list that gives them time to build up. It seriously is being overestimated and youse guys are letting your imaginations get the best of you. Let the meta drive powergamers into buying two grand worth of daemons. Its good for the flgs, good for gw, and its good for me when I buy them for 1$/fig when they see how you need a two turn head start for it to be the win button it is imagined to be.

and if any of youse guys repeat that I had the most constructive idea I will deny it.

Hulk is right. The sky isn't falling, play a few games and see if everyone is over reacting. Everyone takes time to adjust and the knee jerk reaction has been to say summoning is OP. Adjust your play for a little while before deciding the rules need changing

 undertow wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? If faced with a choice I would much rather only summon one unit per turn. A 12 WC limit is absolutely crippling to an army that relies on Psychic Powers to do the vast majority of its shooting.

In the 7E games I've played so far I've had to make decisions about whether to buff an expensive unit (usually a Daemon Prince) or continue shooting. In 6E I could get all my buff off with more reliability and still be able to shoot almost every Psychic shooting attack I had.

I will agree to disagree and will move on to say the arguement is a moot point because I already made the point that a 12 warp cap is a draconian house rule that I think should be avoided. Unless you want to argue that a 1 summoned unit per turn is a good idea it's pointless to debate if a 1 summoned unit/turn or 12 warp cap is the worst of 2 bad ideas that should both be avoided.

Time to go back on topic. The building consensus is that summoning is not broken, it is a hard counter for some static gunlines, and it has a huge laundry list of hard counters many of which are common in the meta. It's also poorly set up for most maelstrom missions.

I have heard some good ideas that might improve a tournament beyond addressing deamons that don't specifically target summoning.

 undertow wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? If faced with a choice I would much rather only summon one unit per turn. A 12 WC limit is absolutely crippling to an army that relies on Psychic Powers to do the vast majority of its shooting.

In the 7E games I've played so far I've had to make decisions about whether to buff an expensive unit (usually a Daemon Prince) or continue shooting. In 6E I could get all my buff off with more reliability and still be able to shoot almost every Psychic shooting attack I had.

A 12 WC cap is going to do nothing beyond effectively ban Daemon armies from events, or else shoe-horn us into a very specific list.

12 charges for example is basically 2 castings of a maxed-out Flickering Fire. That can still be denied by everyone, and is only giving the Daemon player a total of 8D6 shots at either BS3 (Horrors) or BS4 (Tzheralds)
That's no Prescience, or Precognition on the LoC, nor is there any threat of Biomancy, or Telepathy going off, let alone any Malefic!

This is not Fantasy!
A cap there works due to how casting itself is very different, Wizards get to add their level to their attempts, Arcane Items are a thing, the Shooting phase is not nearly as deadly, etc...

I honestly have a feeling that people really haven't played more than 1 or 2 games, where they let the worst case scenario happen on purpose because they've already formed their opinions & biases...

Agree completely (though 2 max castings for flicker fire is generous on 12D6 honestly, more like 2 level 2 castings.) The psychic phase is really less powerful than people think, you get off way fewer powers than you did in 6th, summoning to be reliable is looking at throwing 7-9 dice at a power, (6 if you don't care about failing) and risking a ton of perils.

Breng77 wrote:
Agree completely (though 2 max castings for flicker fire is generous on 12D6 honestly, more like 2 level 2 castings.) The psychic phase is really less powerful than people think, you get off way fewer powers than you did in 6th, summoning to be reliable is looking at throwing 7-9 dice at a power, (6 if you don't care about failing) and risking a ton of perils.

6 dice is still quite do-able as you're into the 60%'ish success range, while risking only a roughly 26% chance of Perils.


With the way people are still carrying on about this whole thing mind, I'm thinking it's time to jut go and make those t-shirts! May something like; "I played Daemons when they sucked - now get off my Summoning and deal with it!"

65% which means you are faily likely to fail one out of 2 powers. Or at least get one off on minimum successes and watch your opponent chuck all their dice at it to possibly deny it (with bonuses if any), And if you fail the first cast, they throw all their dice at the second.

Played a 7th ed tournament this weekend, No Daemons made top 5.

626 and 77 You guys are making good points on why a 12 charge cap is a bad idea, but the idea never gained traction here. All I ever did with the idea of a 12 warp charge limit is use it as a bad idea benchmark to compare other bad ideas to.

A cap in general (or any fix at this point) is a bad idea I agree.