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Has malefic deamonology has broken the game? Lets have a calm conversation about it.

FAQ landed. Most questions answered.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

Remaining questions for a TO.

Does shadow in the warp and siren song from fiends effect leadership rolls on perils? I think most players are doing RAI yes. BAO FAQ previously ruled that the a -1 modifier from each fiend stacks, but other TO are free to disagree.


Herald 4 for 1 HQ is a 1 time deal. Most tournaments are doing a 2 book restriction on FOC with either a limit of 2 combined arms or a combined arm FOC + an allied FOC.

4 heralds with lvl3 , Fateweaver, and Be'Lakor is prohibitively expensive at 1030 points leaving the rest of the army vulnerable to an alpha strike or bum rush assault list. Warp storm and the grimiore of true names are unreliable and often a liability without fateweaver in the list. IMO Guaranteed invisibility from Be'Lakor is the most broken thing in 7th edition and the factory either has to give up Fateweaver, give up Be'Lakor, or be so overspent on 1,030+ points of HQ that it becomes very vulnerable to hard counters.

The linchpins of the factory is not the 3 warp charge primaris. It's the 1 warp charge cursed earth and sacrifice, specifically sacrifice. Gaining 2 warp charges, 2 rolls on the daemonolgy table, and 70 points of herald for 1 warp charge is far better than gaining 90 points of summoned deamons + an icon + an instrument for 3 warp charges. The multiple cursed earths giving the entire army a 4+ invo instead of a 5+ and the easy access to a 2++ rerollable invo on screamers with cursed earth and grimiore make it the other linchpin.

6 warp charge for primaris summoning is a very inefficient use of warp charges, but early in the game it ensures warp charges will never go to waste. Other armies with a lot of warp charges won't have a constructive use for half of their warp charges until turn 2 or turn 3.

The big question remains: Is the deamon factory broken?

If so the next question is what measures would be needed keep daemons in a tournament wihtout resorting to draconian measures like limiting warp charge pools.?

*So far one of the most constructive ideas is that an increase in KP as a secondary mission in more scenarios would help against deamons. It might also rebalance the meta if MSU starts to grow out of control. There is also the option of broad side bash type scenarios where every 3 KP yields 1 VP in objective based games.

Thanks to Hulksmash pointing out the 4 per 1 discount on heralds is a 1 time offer and Blackmoore for constructive feedback.

If a TO still believes that deamon factory is stupid OP my suggestion is to nerf sacrifice and require that the casting model be the one to be sacrificed on a perils of the warp. Sacrifice is a critical linchpin in the deamonic factory so a nerf to sacrifice would really hit the deamon factory where it hurts. I'm not convinced this is a necessary measure yet, but I am convinced it would really hurt deamons.

Here is my opinion, Ban all summoning powers

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Here is my opinion, Ban all summoning powers

Can we also ban all markerlights because they're too good?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Here is my opinion, Ban all summoning powers

In the absence of any constructive solutions I think many TO will end up resorting to that or a warp charge cap.

My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

Why ban Malefic Summoning powers? Because they allow you to bring in troops with impunity. It slows down the game once more and more get onto the table and you end up with more points then you should have on the board. The only reason that tervigons are different is because they only bring in often a small amount or sometimes none at all.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The only reason that tervigons are different is because they only bring in often a small amount or sometimes none at all.

That and you can't spam 75 point tervies.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

There are many, many other powers in the book and codex other than the summoning.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why ban Malefic Summoning powers? Because they allow you to bring in troops with impunity. It slows down the game once more and more get onto the table and you end up with more points then you should have on the board. The only reason that tervigons are different is because they only bring in often a small amount or sometimes none at all.

Many other armies can do it.

Tyranids have tervigons.

Necrons have scarabs.

All other psykers can still summon daemons. They just have a higher chance for Perils, though Eldar can nullify that with their Ghost Helms.

If the number of summoning is low (like 1 or at most 2), then the time factor isn't really an issue.

If the number of heralds is under control the number of summonings will be under control.

My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system. There is a massive diminishing return on summoning and psychic powers in general. This is being looked at in a vacuum without the consideration of what other armies can do and will do to adjust. Let the new rules breathe a bit before smothering them.

Not to mention that your basic premise is flawed. Since you can have only 1 primary detachment and only 4 heralds per primary detachment. You then require 2 additional troops per one herald as you take additional combined arm detachments.

Let the new rules breathe a bit? Both you Hulksmash and jy2 have played enough to be able to name at least a dozen things that have to be house ruled in order to make 7th playable in a competitive "better balance" setting. The demon factory is singled out because doubling your army's points value inside three turns is absurd, but it doesn't make super heavies or unbound lists any less broken.

I doubt anyone needs to play test 7th edition to realise his Tactical Marines and friends still can't beat a Revenant Titan or Aetaos'rau'keres.

 Hulksmash wrote:
My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system. There is a massive diminishing return on summoning and psychic powers in general. This is being looked at in a vacuum without the consideration of what other armies can do and will do to adjust. Let the new rules breathe a bit before smothering them.

Not to mention that your basic premise is flawed. Since you can have only 1 primary detachment and only 4 heralds per primary detachment. You then require 2 additional troops per one herald as you take additional combined arm detachments.

Good catch Hulk. I worked graveyard last night and operating on fumes but can go back and change some points.

4 Heralds is only 12 rolls if they are lvl 3 and only 8 rolls if they are restricted like CSM

12 rolls means only 2 will have sacrifice.

Fateweaver's powers are very specifically set and will not be able to take deamonology.

A standard lord of change would only add as many mastery levels as a herald.

With a single FOC + 1 allied FOC we're looking at a maximum of 18 rolls and 3 heralds/lords of change with sacrifice.

@schadenfreude

No worries. You can't have an allied FOC if they go that route You officially can't ally with the same faction. Which is primary codex (i.e. Space Marines can't have Clan Rakuan allies). They can only have a seperate Combined Arms formation with them.

@Therion

Well, since Unbound is by opponent permission only I didn't consider that as something that needs to be addressed. Technically Battle Forged and Unbound both require permission but it's not changing the rules to say Battle Forged only.

Regarding super heavies i'd argue that with the change to D-weapons I'm fine with them. They are now no worse in general than Distort weapons. Which was the real problem with a Revenant titan, not it's survivability.

And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch. At 1850, assuming the best for horrors and them getting 2 warp charges for 99pts, you're looking at 20 Warpcharges at just over 1k. That nets you 3 decent chance successful casts to summon. That's about 300pts per turn without sacrifce which is another 70pts. So 370 times 3 is 1110. Assuming nothing gets stopped and you succeed on all of them. You doubled the casting portion of your army if everything goes right. All the while doing minimum damage to an army that can be more offensive now thanks to the new scoring rules.

And heaven help you if you go second against an army that can shoot. You start out pretty heavily behind the 8-ball at that point. IG, SM, Tau, Eldar, Nids (assuming biovores & tyrants), Grey Knights (even if you go first here) and a couple of others depending on build and style will destroy a caster heavy army, or shoot into a complete neuter(sp?).

The only thing that might need reigning in is the unlimited detachment thing. But even that I'm not 100% and would only suggest it for player fun (no one wants to play against 9 A-Barges) not actual effectiveness.

And yes, I do play a lot. So when I look at the rules and read through them and form an opinion like I have it's based on that player knowledge. And that player knowledge right now is telling me to leave it alone and let it breathe.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch.

Allow me to present exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw

 Thud wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch.

Allow me to present exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw

21 rolls on summon powers

3.5 sacrafice per turn

I think they were allowing horrors to summon which would boost that to 27 rolls and make it safe to summon troops with 6 dice, but I'm not sure. Nobody knows if horrors will be able to summon yet, and I don't think they will be able to.

Also, right now, horrors could as psykers for, fundamentally, all purposes. If you make horrors count as psykers, but not for the purpose of generating warp dice, it might be less broken, and I could see that sort of a change showing up in a FAQ.

Thus, horrors could USE warp dice, but could not contribute to generating more of them.

Alternatively, I could see horrors and other psychic units as being given a specific set of psychic powers, and only characters being allowed to 'generate' their own psychic powers.

I'm not sure if either would fix the daemonspawn problem, but either (or both) would address it, and both could be reasonably shoehorned into a FAQ.

Horrors are psykers, but their book specifically states they can only take 1 power from tzeentch.

Heralds also state they can only take powers from divination and tzeentch.

I think the safe bet on the faq is everyone but horrors will get access to summoning, and horrors will only have access to tzeentch.

 Thud wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch.

Allow me to present exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw

I said it was a bit of a stretch and it is. What you're seeing is an army that is all summoning and can't do offensive damage until at least turn 2 (maybe 3 depending on how summoning goes and what they summon) going against an army with no psychic defense and seriously lacking in ranged firepower. You can see that the deck was stacked to show how crazy summoning is right?

Test it out with the core of your army being:

Coteaz
6x2 Acolyte & 1 Psyker in Psyback
3x5 Purgators w/4 Incinerators in Psybacks

That's 958. So slightly over half an army. 20 dispel dice to keep sacrifice from going off while you pick off squads heralds are hiding in. And unlike the daemon army in the batrep this is the core of something that would be a good army. While it's a bit extreme it'd be a decent test.

Or test it against MSU armies which will be coming back as long as the tournament circuit adjusts to the 1/6 KP the book has for basic missions (I'm looking at Adepticon).

But please don't hold up that battle report as an accurate measure of what summoning will look like in 7th edition. I love Reece and those guys but even they would probably tell you that.

Honestly I think the biggest problem with the malefic is that it just adds so much time to any given game. I think the frontline guys got to turn 5 and that took 6 hours.

I honestly don't see it being a competitive build for that reason alone.

I would be interested in seeing how that army holds up to something like IG who can reliably wipe units down to providing 1 warp charge easily everyturn as well as kill a few heralds or snipe heralds.

Remember those spawned heralds cant join units and so are sitting ducks for the first turn they show up. Enough barrage weapons and there will be no where to hide.

I think at most I would say is that all spawned units come stock with no upgrades. Just to save time.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Thud wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch.

Allow me to present exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw

I said it was a bit of a stretch and it is. What you're seeing is an army that is all summoning and can't do offensive damage until at least turn 2 (maybe 3 depending on how summoning goes and what they summon) going against an army with no psychic defense and seriously lacking in ranged firepower. You can see that the deck was stacked to show how crazy summoning is right?

Test it out with the core of your army being:

Coteaz
6x2 Acolyte & 1 Psyker in Psyback
3x5 Purgators w/4 Incinerators in Psybacks

That's 958. So slightly over half an army. 20 dispel dice to keep sacrifice from going off while you pick off squads heralds are hiding in. And unlike the daemon army in the batrep this is the core of something that would be a good army. While it's a bit extreme it'd be a decent test.

Or test it against MSU armies which will be coming back as long as the tournament circuit adjusts to the 1/6 KP the book has for basic missions (I'm looking at Adepticon).

But please don't hold up that battle report as an accurate measure of what summoning will look like in 7th edition. I love Reece and those guys but even they would probably tell you that.

It was only exhibit A, not my closing statement.

But surely you must be able to see the problems with this? Balance is only one of them. With the 6th ed D-rules, Escalation wasn't just a one way street. My Tau army was pretty handily capable of dropping a Revenant on turn one, if I got first turn, and thus basically winning the game, and also lose on turn one if I didn't go first. That's kinda balanced in its own perverse way. But 40k isn't only about balance. Not even in tournaments. It's also supposed to be fun, right? Did you catch when they said how long the game had taken? Obviously, more familiarity with the edition will decrease that amount, but still...

There's also the issue of this being to a much greater degree than before a "pay to win" option. Not everyone are super into buying tons of models that aren't a part of their list in the first place, and some people are into that. I'm not saying that doesn't already exist, but do we really need more stuff to deepen the gap between those two groups?

A game in a new edition using rules they were unfamiliar with in a game designed to show a flaw in the system in as large a way as possible took longer than it should have? Say it aint so!

But seriously I'm 50/50 on the length issue. We might have gotten another phase but I'm not totally sure it actually slows the game down all that much. No anymore than 3 tervigons who wouldn't poop out did in 5th and 6th. That one I'm willing to take a look at as I play a few games.

 Hulksmash wrote:
A game in a new edition using rules they were unfamiliar with in a game designed to show a flaw in the system in as large a way as possible took longer than it should have? Say it aint so!

But seriously I'm 50/50 on the length issue. We might have gotten another phase but I'm not totally sure it actually slows the game down all that much. No anymore than 3 tervigons who wouldn't poop out did in 5th and 6th. That one I'm willing to take a look at as I play a few games.

Yea, I was more addressing that fact that each summoning adds rolls for spells, they have to select equipment, they have to deep strike and place units, and this is compounded every turn with further summons, rolling for wargear so on and so forth.

Normally the first 2-3 turns are slow and as the number of units decreases they go much faster. However in this case at least for 1-2 turns it will actually go in the opposite direction and significantly increase time. That is regardless of familiarity with the rules.

Sorry Leth, that was in response to Thud.

While I agree portions could take longer and might I think that any list based around summoning is going to get rocked so hard by lists designed for 7th (assuming the inevitable changes the TO's make aren't to restrictive) that I don't think it's truly going to be an issue.

And I think that the summoning scare would pass faster if we played the game instead of trying to change it right off the bat (directed more at the thread, not you Leth).

This has somewhat the same solution the ever-existing time issue. I know it hasn't been done yet, but actually finding a way to end someones turn at a set time will stop many of these armies in their tracks since you can hardly start your shooting if you spend 30 sec-1 min on a single summon of lesser daemons.

Although i know this brings many different problems, such as providing clocks, some armies not being able to be played in a certain time by design etc.

No worries man, I agree. I will admit I was slightly shaken by the two battle reports I saw with lots of dice.

However in one of them they got Fortune and Invisability so that is a little skewed.

The problem is that the lists that are designed around psychic powers can get pretty hard countered by armies with more output everyturn as well as having psychic powers. Look at grey knights, their list will DESTROY a psychic spam army. Or coteaz bringing some santic into other lists and so on and so forth. I think it is very powerful but I think it has too many random elements to be a staple of the competative scene. Also having to have all the models does help that a bit

I'm also for letting it play out a bit, that said I think the best fix is capping all powers except spell focus primaris powers to one per army. His solves a lot of potential problems.

 Hulksmash wrote:
A game in a new edition using rules they were unfamiliar with in a game designed to show a flaw in the system in as large a way as possible took longer than it should have? Say it aint so!

But seriously I'm 50/50 on the length issue. We might have gotten another phase but I'm not totally sure it actually slows the game down all that much. No anymore than 3 tervigons who wouldn't poop out did in 5th and 6th. That one I'm willing to take a look at as I play a few games.

It's too early to be decided on the issue. Right now the #1 solution is to play test the list more to determine if there needs to be a fix.

Could we get your feedback from playtesting Hulk? When you playtest please let us know if you were playtesting pink horrors as having Tzeentch only powers or being able to summon. I firmly believe the FAQ will limit horrors to Tzeentch only and the deamon factory will be much more tame when only HQ can summon.

There are also some hard counters that I can see being popular in the meta. If someone has the time please try one of these against the deamon factory.

#1 Khan biker list with 3 priests from allied IG, a power armor librarian, LRC, and 6 assault terminators. The librarian will give the LRC carrying the librarian, 3 priests, and 6 assault terminators a scout more. On the first turn they can assault 2 priests jump out of the LRC to join white scar bike units and the 3rd stays inside the terminator unit and everything assaults.

#2 GK with 2 units of interceptors, henchmen with 1 psyker, lots of transports, and coteaz. Should be able to generate 18 power dice. Go first, shunt, and drop 9 power dice into 2 giant warp quakes. covering the entire deamonic deployment zone. If a summoned unit mishaps and is deployed by the gk player set it next to coteaz while he is in a 100 point unit of purgation that has 4 heavy incinerators.

Some spit ball ideas:

1. Making a Perils cause the manifest attempt to fail.

2. Removing the bonus to casting Malefic that Daemons have so that they also perils on any double roll.

3. If 1, then probably remove the penalty for casting Malefic that other armies have (perils on any double).

4. Limit Malefic to only 1 Model per army.

5. Limit Conjuration to only 1 per turn.

6. Cap the WC that can be spent on any particular category (or Discipline) of power. For example, you can only spend 10 dice per type of power. Thus, you could spend 10 on Blessings, and 10 on Conjurations, but no more than 10 on any one category.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm also for letting it play out a bit, that said I think the best fix is capping all powers except spell focus primaris powers to one per army. This solves a lot of potential problems.

And introduces a ton of new ones. What this does is allows someone to plan their army exactly around which powers they will have. While I feel the change to random powers was a bit of a mistake, it's what the game is "balanced" around right now, and if you limit any given power to one-per-army, a player can simply take two ML3 Psykers and know that they will have every power in a given tree (plus two copies of the Primaris).

If I knew for certain that I would have, for instance, every power in Runes of Fate, it would very much change how I build my Eldar army and give me a huge advantage over those who don't have the same option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rollawaythestone wrote:
4. Limit Malefic to only 1 Model per army.

I really like this option. Allows for units to be brought in (possibly two+ per turn) but without the potential for exponential silliness that can happen right now with Heralds (or if we assume that Horrors can also roll on Malefic). It also allows an opponent to focus fire if they desire to take out that summoner model. A sort of "restriction" of Malefic (to borrow an MTG term) rather than the outright banning that some people are suggesting.