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So unitl it's FAQ'd will you house rule the "path of least resistance" or the option that benefits only one army currently?

 grendel083 wrote:
So unitl it's FAQ'd will you house rule the "path of least resistance" or the option that benefits only one army currently?

Id houserule it what I think it means until its clarified.

Just to add to this:

The Aegis is a defensive item. Seems pretty cut and dry to me: if you aren't being targetted, you don't get to use the item to defend yourself.

DTW for a blessing would be an offensive action as you're attacking a blessing or conjuration your opponent is casting. I can see why nominating a psyker to deny the witch makes sense as SOMEONE in your army is denying the witch. Unfortunately they deliberately said no modifiers apply so that further complicates the interpretation. But then if you're not getting targetted, you can't use the Aegis to help defend yourself.

Is it? making sure a friendly power not going off seems fairly deffensive to me

Nor does the FAQ says the aegis is for defensive DTW either

Just to get back to orginal argument I think that you get to re-roll jjust the failed dice as they are the rolls and aegis says roll

So for those that would like a fluff reason for not using a unit to deny a blessing someone in the enemy army willpower intentionally or unintentionally squashed the power or the blessing psyker got distracted in some manner.

Must admit im of the opinion that you dont select a unit what

1. Enemy psker manifests blessing power
2. 'if none of your units was the target of the enemies psychic power you can still attempt to deny, follow same process.
3. Select one of your units that was a target... Well there aint one but ive been told to follow process and we are at this point for thst reason so im just going to carry on cus im allowed to deny
4. Roll test

Can underatand why you would do it the other way just how we all played it without thinking so far at LGS

 grendel083 wrote:
So unitl it's FAQ'd will you house rule the "path of least resistance" or the option that benefits only one army currently?

Are you seriously suggesting that because only GK get The Aegis, that it should be limited in a manner that is not suggested either in the BRB or the brand new FAQ? To me, that reeks of bias and wishful thinking. I get that the wording regarding denying blessings is ambiguous at best, but to state that when denying a blessing NO unit is doing the denying makes zero sense to me. We already have a mechanic in place to indicate what happens when the psyker manifesting a blessing loses focus or otherwise messes things up . . . to indicate that some mysterious force not represented by the opposing forces on the table is making an effort to deny the witch runs counter to common sense. Why wouldn't an army renowned throughout the fluff as being the best and purest psykers humanity has to offer have greater abilities to disrupt opposing psykers (especially demons using abilities that don't target them, such as summoning, etc)?

Also, as we've seen quite clearly illustrated by the case of Tyranids and SitW, past functionalities and interactions between abilities and enemy psyker powers are not a valid indication of how they ought to work in 7ed. Appealing to the "defensive" nature of the previous incarnation of The Aegis is facile at best.

 Fachxphyre wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
So unitl it's FAQ'd will you house rule the "path of least resistance" or the option that benefits only one army currently?

Are you seriously suggesting that because only GK get The Aegis, that it should be limited in a manner that is not suggested either in the BRB or the brand new FAQ? To me, that reeks of bias and wishful thinking.

It was friendly banter and a playful jibe at someone who had already admitted to being biased in favour of Grey Knights. Unless you followed the thread very closely I could see how you'd miss that.

Why wouldn't an army renowned throughout the fluff as being the best and purest psykers humanity has to offer have greater abilities to disrupt opposing psykers

Yes, the best humanity has to offer. Yet this proposal would make them better than anyone else.
Tyranids should be far better at disrupting powers.
Eldar are far better Psykers, they can't do anything similiar.
Chaos? They are the warp.
Traitor marines with 10,000 years more experience?
If you read the fluff Orks are the most Psychic race in the galaxy! Their very thoughts become reallity.

Really Humanity is pretty far down the food chain in terms of Psychic ability. But we're getting far to deep into fluff now.

 grendel083 wrote:

If you read the fluff Orks are the most Psychic race in the galaxy! Their very thoughts become reallity.

So you're telling me Orks think about summoning Daemons?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

If you read the fluff Orks are the most Psychic race in the galaxy! Their very thoughts become reallity.

So you're telling me Orks think about summoning Daemons?

Ha! No, basically all Orks generate Psychic energy.
This energy can do many things, the most noticible is making their technology work.

Most Ork inventions don't actually work. But if an Ork believes it does, it will.
If he believes his gun still has bullets left, it will still fire (even if empty).

Orks really have the best fluff

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

If you read the fluff Orks are the most Psychic race in the galaxy! Their very thoughts become reallity.

So you're telling me Orks think about summoning Daemons?

Ha! No, basically all Orks generate Psychic energy.
This energy can do many things, the most noticible is making their technology work.

Most Ork inventions don't actually work. But if an Ork believes it does, it will.
If he believes his gun still has bullets left, it will still fire (even if empty).

Orks really have the best fluff

Of course this is all humie propaganda. I mean what is the range on this "ability" can it affect things halfway across the galaxy? For example, Most Orks know about good ol' Yarrick. When he is on Terra, since there are no Orks around does his Power Klaw just stop functioning?

But I digress, we are getting more into General/Background and less rules.

BACK TO THE TOPIC ON HAND!!! (and yes that is me yelling).

Well as for the rules

RAW doesnt work, its not clarified

Opinions on RAI differ, or how we would play

Which more of the general question: Who denies blessings, do you pick a unit to deny a blessing? Does the big fleshy hand in the sky that rolls those magical cubes deny? No one, the warp just doesnt like you?

 Happyjew wrote:
BACK TO THE TOPIC ON HAND!!! (and yes that is me yelling).

But but but!

I haven't even gotten to the part where Gork and Mork beat up Poppa Nurgle. Best story ever!

(and Yarrak's fluff says they re-wired that claw to make it work...)

 WrentheFaceless wrote:


Which more of the general question: Who denies blessings, do you pick a unit to deny a blessing? Does the big fleshy hand in the sky that rolls those magical cubes deny? No one, the warp just doesnt like you?

Well, considering Tau (even without a talisman) can make a DtW roll, I would imagine it would be the warp just doesn't like you.

Picking whatever unit you want to DTW is open to abuse, while picking no unit is not.

One of your units being resistant to harmful Pychic powers doesn't make the enemy army worse at buffing their own troops.

If none of your troops are targeted you get a roll none the less to try and deny.

Tying to cherry pick your Uber Specialized DTW unit to make your deny rolls is just cheeze.

 adamsouza wrote:
Picking whatever unit you want to DTW is open to abuse, while picking no unit is not.

One of your units being resistant to harmful Pychic powers doesn't make the enemy army worse at buffing their own troops.

If none of your troops are targeted you get a roll none the less to try and deny.

Tying to cherry pick your Uber Specialized DTW unit to make your deny rolls is just cheeze.

Ok, then riddle me this. Why do the FAQ entries for the Aegis and Reinforced Aegis deliberately remove the phrases related to the model being targeted? Contrast pages 21 and 35 of the GK codex with the new FAQ. Why else would the stipulation that a enemy psyker power be targeting the unit in question be removed, if this ability is not intended to now function against blessings and other powers not targeting GK units? The FAQ is quite unambiguous, and does not stipulate that the unit must be targeted in order for it to take effect. Additionally, your argument loses even more of its validity when you consider that there are already wargear items such as the psychic hood that explicitly allow an "Uber Specialized DTW unit" to make deny rolls.

 adamsouza wrote:
Picking whatever unit you want to DTW is open to abuse, while picking no unit is not.

One of your units being resistant to harmful Pychic powers doesn't make the enemy army worse at buffing their own troops.

If none of your troops are targeted you get a roll none the less to try and deny.

Tying to cherry pick your Uber Specialized DTW unit to make your deny rolls is just cheeze.

Thats nice, the rules dont say that though

 Fachxphyre wrote:

...Why do the FAQ entries for the Aegis and Reinforced Aegis deliberately remove the phrases related to the model being targeted?...

Because the DtW bonus for the Aegis is specifically denied in the new rules "...apply no modifiers to your dice rolls", thus the old half paragraph would be superfluous.

To me it boils down to 1) Is the unit being targeted - "Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll" and
2) If it's not being targeted, does it get to use a rule that isn't a -modifier- for DtW rolls on enemy Blessings.

Edit - Remembered the FAQ for The Aegis incorrectly, as it allows for re-rolls (just like Reinforced Aegis). So this means that if Reinforced Aegis grants re-rolls to DtW on Blessings, an army containing any GK with The Aegis can re-roll 1's for DtW on Blessings?

Since a re-roll is not considered a modifier (read the relevant section of your BRB), there is no reason why The Aegis or Reinforced Aegis would not apply to DtW rolls against enemy blessings, UNLESS you are of the opinion that no unit is selected for making non-targeted DtW rolls, in which case I'm done wasting breath trying to argue that point.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Thats nice, the rules dont say that though

You make it sound like the rule allow you to pick whatever unit you like.
The rules most definitely do not say that.

Nor does the rule make a stipulation if no unit is the target. The only thing you've provided to support your argument is that if you select no unit, you can't abuse the rule.

What were saying is that, according to how we understand the rules, that we may deny powers that we are not the target of by following the same steps outlined in DtW. Step one is select a unit that was targeted by the power. Since RAW that breaks the mechanic because there is a direct contradiction in the rules.

We feel like our interpretation is correct because of the following two pieces of evidence:

1) It says that no modifiers may be applied to DtW rolls when attempting to nullify powers that don't target one of your units. Since only units in the game have modifiers for the DtW rolls, why bother mentioning it if the player is the one making the DtW test? Sure they could be future proofing, but 3 of the 4 psychic super powers have already been released. Surely, at least one of them would have a piece of wargear or special rule that changes the players DtW roll (SitW would have been a great spot for this).

2) As a player, there are only three rolls you make for yourself. 1) the roll-off at the beginning of the game, 2) Seizing the initiative, 3) To see if the game ends. (I didn't include mission or deployment type as those could just as easily be given to you in a scenario). Every other roll you make as a player is to determine the outcome of something that a unit is doing or is being done to them. It has been this way since I started playing in 3rd edition.

Again, what your saying is that since you can't select a unit, you select none because the alternative is open to abuse. That's it That's all the evidence you've come up with so far. After that, you go on to claim that we're inventing new rules. What we are doing is no worse than what you are. We're simply removing part of the rule to make the mechanic work. You're removing even more to make the mechanic work, and prevent abuse.

 IndigoJack wrote:

1) It says that no modifiers may be applied to DtW rolls when attempting to nullify powers that don't target one of your units. Since only units in the game have modifiers for the DtW rolls, why bother mentioning it if the player is the one making the DtW test?

I could see, from how the rules for psychic hood are written, someone could try to use it for a DtW roll on a blessing cast within its range. Also, couldn't you view a DtW roll on an enemy blessing as you effecting an enemy unit (and not just a "player" roll)?

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Thats nice, the rules dont say that though

You make it sound like the rule allow you to pick whatever unit you like.
The rules most definitely do not say that.

They do not say pick no unit either

You guys are arguing RAI which is futile and pointless.

Everyone agrees that RAW you can't DtW powers that don't target your units. Lets just stop it there and get back to the original point of this thread.

Assuming a power has targeted a model with Reinforced Aegis, can they reroll individual rolls or must they reroll the entire DtW test?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Thats nice, the rules dont say that though

You make it sound like the rule allow you to pick whatever unit you like.
The rules most definitely do not say that.

They do not say pick no unit either

Just to add further confusion we have one part of the rules saying you may add no bonuses to (untargeted) Denies, another saying no modifiers.

I'd definitely class the Aegis as a bonus.

It's looking like this is the "snap shot" of the psychic phase, and you're really not suppose to have anything but a flat 6+.

 Cytharai wrote:


I could see, from how the rules for psychic hood are written, someone could try to use it for a DtW roll on a blessing cast within its range.

The psychic hood argument falls apart where it says, "...the wearer of the hood can attempt to Deny the Witch in their stead." as you can only deny enemy psychic powers. So since the hood only works when the targeted unit can DtW, and you can only deny enemy powers, you can't use a hood to deny blessings.

Also, couldn't you view a DtW roll on an enemy blessing as you effecting an enemy unit (and not just a "player" roll)?

That would still be me, as a player, affecting someone another unit. Which, since I've been playing, I've never seen in the game. To be fair, the psychic phase is something that's not been in the game for a long time, and I'm not even sure how it worked in 2nd. This is new waters for everybody and there are going to be lots of things that come up that don't have a precedent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Just to add further confusion we have one part of the rules saying you may add no bonuses to (untargeted) Denies, another saying no modifiers.

I'd definitely class the Aegis as a bonus.

It's looking like this is the "snap shot" of the psychic phase, and you're really not suppose to have anything but a flat 6+.

First, where does it say no bonuses? I've not seen that anywhere. Second, what is a bonus, how is it defined in game? Modifiers are defined, bonuses are not. And if the aegis is the "snap shot" of the psychic phase, than re-rolls are definitely in, as you are allowed to re-roll snap shots. Seriously, the no re-roll argument hold absolutely no water.

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Thats nice, the rules dont say that though

You make it sound like the rule allow you to pick whatever unit you like.
The rules most definitely do not say that.

They do not say pick no unit either

Just to add further confusion we have one part of the rules saying you may add no bonuses to (untargeted) Denies, another saying no modifiers.

I'd definitely class the Aegis as a bonus.

It's looking like this is the "snap shot" of the psychic phase, and you're really not suppose to have anything but a flat 6+.

6+ is agreed upon that you need this in all cases, but you can reroll snap shots in that example

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
6+ is agreed upon that you need this in all cases, but you can reroll snap shots in that example

Ha! True, it wasn't the best comparison.

But would you say a re-roll definitely counts as a bonus?

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
6+ is agreed upon that you need this in all cases, but you can reroll snap shots in that example

Ha! True, it wasn't the best comparison.

But would you say a re-roll definitely counts as a bonus?

I would say its a bonus, and not a modifier

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
6+ is agreed upon that you need this in all cases, but you can reroll snap shots in that example

Ha! True, it wasn't the best comparison.

But would you say a re-roll definitely counts as a bonus?

I would say its a bonus, and not a modifier

Oh it's definitely not a modifier, no argument there.

As they have used both terms in different parts it will be interesting to see if they go one way or the other when they get round to FAQ'ing the rulebook. If they go with "bonus" then it would put this part of the debate to rest.

 grendel083 wrote:


But would you say a re-roll definitely counts as a bonus?

Where does it say no bonuses? I've read and re-read the DtW section and saw nothing that said no bonuses, just no modifiers. Additionally, nowhere in the book is a bonus defined. So either it's sloppy rule writing, or sloppy rule reading.