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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 14:57:16
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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4th essential is 3rd with a few adjustments, so I guess it's fine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 15:07:10
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos
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Sigvatr wrote:4th essential is 3rd with a few adjustments, so I guess it's fine.
Well, it traded the completely overpowered transport and assault rules for incredibly underpowered transports. it's an improvement in a lot of ways, and the addition of USRs smplificed some of the codices, but while 4th edition had a lot of good, there was a double handful ot WTF moments in that edition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 15:31:06
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver
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Polonius wrote: Sigvatr wrote:4th essential is 3rd with a few adjustments, so I guess it's fine.
Well, it traded the completely overpowered transport and assault rules for incredibly underpowered transports. it's an improvement in a lot of ways, and the addition of USRs smplificed some of the codices, but while 4th edition had a lot of good, there was a double handful ot WTF moments in that edition.
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I dunno about the transports. I played trukker speed freaks in 4th and didn't have too much of a problem with transports - you just had to protect them (rightly so) while they were en-route. That wasn't difficult with the amount of LoS blocking terrain in that edition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 17:33:41
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I don't remember transport being that fragile - but keep in mind my experience lies many years back in the past and since I play Necrons, I don't have any transports anyway. I'm running down a few points - if you want to add or elaborate on them, I'd appreciate it
a) Dangerous terrain becoming twice as dangerous when going faster than 6''.
a.2) On the other hand, area terrain blocks LoS after 6'', so you can actually "hide "behind" any area terrain - of which there is a lot.
b) Dedicated Transports are limited to the unit they came with
c) AP 1 is very rare and limited to Melta weaponry
d) AP - is can only cause glancing hits
e) Vehicle damage table is DEADLY. 50% chance to destroy a vehicle with a penetrating hit is rough.
f) Emergency Disembarkation can be quite deadly for passengers
I remember it being an all-or-nothing approach - keeping your transports behind cover was absolutely mandatory else you got a high chance to see it going up in flames.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 17:37:29
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos
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What really gimped transports was entanglement. BAsically, when a tranport was wrecked, the squad inside couldn't move, shoot, or assault next turn. Not pin test, just an immediate loss of turn.
Transports also started in reserves in 1/3 of the games, due to Escalation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 17:56:57
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Fixture of Dakka
Chicago, Illinois
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I always liked the limit on wargear that was present and am sad to see it go away.
I guess since we're discussing rules, I really super like Hull Points , but wish they'd completely streamline ALL o the vehicle rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/23 17:58:23
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 18:19:08
Subject: !
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Codex: Necrons I love it. It's super limited but that big limitation fits perfectly to the fluff and the lore behind it. It's an extremely well-thought out codex. Another example is the Monolith. It's extremely strong, but its concept is perfectly thought-out: it's the only vehicle in the army and for this fact alone automatically becomes an iconic center-piece of any Necron army. This "center-piece" function is further reinforced by the teleportation ability that was mainly used to...safe your entire army's center-piece, your troops. Pariahs. An army whose only weakness is the warp itself came up with a new machine that aims to counter their main threat: connections to the Warp. Again: perfectly fitting to the fluff. The TruCron codex is a perfect example for how a codex has to be written. Clear. Stream-lined. Rules go hand-in-hand with the fluff. It's a masterpiece. If I could, I would shove it down Matt Ward's throat. Page. By. Page.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/23 18:19:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 22:34:05
Subject: Re:You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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As for flyers, they're one of the worst things that's been added to the game. Just like super-heavies, they should be an optional part, a la Apocalypse. But, that doesn't sell models, so cram it into 40K.
The funny thing is this: Flyers as they were introduced in the Vehicle Design Rules were generally seen by most of the players as a bad and sometimes downright overpowered addition to 40K as it portrayed things on the tabletop. Except, nowadays, a good deal of the flyer rules that are part of the game are pretty similar to those early rules.
Sometimes I really think that what was more important than the rules of 3/4th editions and how they played was the GW timeframe they existed in. I think that the late 90's and early 2000's was a very healthy and fun time for everything GW-related. Specialist games? All the cool summer campaigns (despite it being inevitable that the forces of disorder would always "lose"). Things like GW posting PDF templates/articles on their actual site for building our own stuff, etc.
All that helped me gloss over any parts of those editions that I didn't like, because they did so much as emphasizing all the awesome stuff I liked.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/23 22:37:55
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 04:50:40
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Sigvatr wrote:4th essential is 3rd with a few adjustments, so I guess it's fine.
You would think so, but no. 4th edition was a mess. It was the edition that saw me give away all of my terrain and put my miniatues into storage.
The hybrid LOS rules (size categories for area terrain and close combats, true LOS for everything else) were widely misunderstood and never clarified by GW. Transports because nigh-on unusable. And the standard of the codexes in general was sub-par, with FAQ support being somewhat variable.
It did have its high points (the Chapter Traits system in the 4th ed Marine books makes it my favourite Marine codex to date) but overall was tedious and a mass of rules issues.
3rd ed wasn't a great deal better where the actual writing was concerned (I remember posting (pre-internet days) a 10 page letter of rules queries to GW a year or so into 3rd ed... and that was the second letter) but it played much better than 4th, IMO.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 07:28:03
Subject: Re:You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator
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AegisGrimm wrote: As for flyers, they're one of the worst things that's been added to the game. Just like super-heavies, they should be an optional part, a la Apocalypse. But, that doesn't sell models, so cram it into 40K.
Sometimes I really think that what was more important than the rules of 3/4th editions and how they played was the GW timeframe they existed in. I think that the late 90's and early 2000's was a very healthy and fun time for everything GW-related. Specialist games? All the cool summer campaigns (despite it being inevitable that the forces of disorder would always "lose"). Things like GW posting PDF templates/articles on their actual site for building our own stuff, etc.
All that helped me gloss over any parts of those editions that I didn't like, because they did so much as emphasizing all the awesome stuff I liked.
Exalted and QFT. I don't doubt 3rd and 4th had their share of issues, but I'd say that part of why I don't remember them as well is that in addition to the ( IMO) simpler rules and a game that knew what it wanted to be, the overall positive enviornment compensated for most shortcomings as AegosGrimm said. Needed bitz?No problem. Mail order. Rules questions? No problem. Official forums. Can't afford exotic terrain? No problem. Many a WD had terrain crafting instructions. Lets not forget this was the time when there were still interactive summer campaigns, tourneys with prize ssupport and support for local game shops (even if minimal). Fact of the matter was that GW had a report with the customer and that itself is/was huge. From what I recall my experiences with GW staff and retailers/support was almost entirely positive. I came back mid 6th after going off to uni mid 4th and to say the least I was really bummed at what a gluttonous pig the GW corperation had become as most of the good I was hoping to come back to was gone in favor of cutthroat business and there is NO interaction between GW and the players.
I still play, and I'm liking 7th much more than 6th, but ill never forget how great pre 05 GW was and how the soul of the company has straight up rotted since.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 09:18:22
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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So much truth. GW stores were actual hobby centers where you *felt* invited to come in and play, they offered terrain design workshops etc. They actually *cared* for their customers. Modern GW has turned 180° and openly hates (!) their customers and makes fun of them.
Storm of Chaos was awesome! Although they retconned it afterwards.
White Dwarf was actually worth reading and not a pile of advertisement garbage.
Spending money was great, because you felt actively supporting a company that gave a lot in return. Nowadays GW is an utter piece of grotpoo.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 09:23:29
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Sigvatr wrote:So much truth. GW stores were actual hobby centers where you *felt* invited to come in and play, they offered terrain design workshops etc. They actually *cared* for their customers. Modern GW has turned 180° and openly hates (!) their customers and makes fun of them.
Openly hate? That's a little strong. Views as a necessary evil perhaps.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 10:11:43
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Referring to the amazing court records with the Chapterhouse case. Should be mandatory reads for every GW white knight.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 11:35:05
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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What is Chapterhouse?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 11:42:23
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 16:07:00
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sigvatr wrote:So much truth. GW stores were actual hobby centers where you *felt* invited to come in and play, they offered terrain design workshops etc. They actually *cared* for their customers. Modern GW has turned 180° and openly hates (!) their customers and makes fun of them.
Storm of Chaos was awesome! Although they retconned it afterwards.
White Dwarf was actually worth reading and not a pile of advertisement garbage.
Spending money was great, because you felt actively supporting a company that gave a lot in return. Nowadays GW is an utter piece of grotpoo.
Oh man, White Dwarf used to be so awesome. Pages of fluff, full detail bat reps with tactical breakdowns, modeling tips, experimental rules, it gave the hobby motion. That week everyone would hit the table with experimental rules for smoke grenades, or Tanith regiments, new Dark Eldar vehicle upgrades, etc.
As for flyers, they were better as fast skimmers (helicopters) or abstractions (call in a strike a la master of ordnance).
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"Bringer of death, speak your name, For you are my life, and the foe's death." - Litany of the Lasgun
2500 points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 17:47:56
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Or better yet when DW had half a dozen games going on and you could read up on Warhammer Quest, Necromunda, 40k, Fantasy, and Epic all in the same mag.
A lot of variety in the 'Eavy Metal pics too.
Those were the days.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 18:15:23
Subject: Re:You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Drew_Riggio
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AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I really think that what was more important than the rules of 3/4th editions and how they played was the GW timeframe they existed in. I think that the late 90's and early 2000's was a very healthy and fun time for everything GW-related. Specialist games? All the cool summer campaigns (despite it being inevitable that the forces of disorder would always "lose"). Things like GW posting PDF templates/articles on their actual site for building our own stuff, etc.
All that helped me gloss over any parts of those editions that I didn't like, because they did so much as emphasizing all the awesome stuff I liked.
This exactly! I am pleased to see that so many also agree with AegisGrimm.
The rules were never great, but back then things were more positive and enjoyable for the above mentioned reasons. Now in the present, we have a rule set that is just as flawed, but is twice as wordy (so I guess you could say twice as bad?). GW is just interested in being a miniature company, not a hobby company. There is nothing wrong with that, but its unfortunate. The miniature hobby in general is still going strong in so many other ways though!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/24 18:16:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 19:41:25
Subject: You know, the 3rd Edition Rulebook isnt so bad
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Nasty Nob on a Boar
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3rd edition was great before the codex's came out.
Having everyone start with the same lists was fine but I am actually a fan of USR - just don't give them to everyone.
3 main things I don't like: 40k has moved towards shooting for 4 straight editions, introduction of fliers and convoluted flying rules and has never completed an edition and updated all armies at the same time.
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No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
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