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Hmm... I was considering buying a KoW rulebook, not sure I need any more models especially for fantasy/mass battle, but I could see backing for the book if I'm not terribroke during the runtime.

There isn't a huge variety of fish men minis out there, but RAFM does make Deep Ones, and Reaper has something similar, as I recall.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?

You can probably still play most of them.

They are still going to have lists for dwarves, elves, Humans, Undead, orcs etc. They are just gonna try to do more of their own thing and less riding on WHFB's coattails moving forward.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?

I can't exhault this enough! GW has basically killed my interest in playing WHFB, but I have several armies without direct analogues in KoW. If Mantic can come out with something, even not fully official but playable in pickup games, that'd let me play with my toys at my FLGS I'd be very, very happy. Otherwise, they probably stay on the shelf and KoW, for me, would be an interesting but failed endeavor.

Valete,

JohnS

It would be pretty cool to have something to do for my Skaven besides goblins or whatever. I think they do have an unofficial rat-men list somewhere on the forums, I guess if the same rules committee that works out the kinks in the game writes lists like that they'd be pretty respectable.

And I could totally get behind some affordable fancy dark elves...

I haven't even checked for analogues. Even if army analogues exist, I doubt they cover most of GW's specialist models.

I own Dwarfs, Ogres, Tomb Kings and O&G and a bit of Skaven.

Hollywood does remakes because proven IP's are a lot less risky and more profitable. Sticking with Fantasy Armies that exist in other games is a safer, and more likely profitable endevour.

Remember when Mantic tried to be orginal with their Ogres ?

 GrimDork wrote:
It would be pretty cool to have something to do for my Skaven besides goblins or whatever. ...

I always thought it was weird that they did Space Rats and not Fantasy Ones as well.

Well it may have something to do with their fluff, and the whole trying to do their own thing.. thing.

Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, Warhammer, Mantic, Game of Thrones... You can still be original with some overlap of races.

To be honest, if they really wanted to be original starting with undead, elves, and dwarfs, probably wasn't the way to do it.

 cygnnus wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?

I can't exhault this enough! GW has basically killed my interest in playing WHFB, but I have several armies without direct analogues in KoW. If Mantic can come out with something, even not fully official but playable in pickup games, that'd let me play with my toys at my FLGS I'd be very, very happy. Otherwise, they probably stay on the shelf and KoW, for me, would be an interesting but failed endeavor.

Valete,

JohnS

Several? Skaven, Lizardmen, and what else?

GW don't do Blood Bowl, Necromunda and didn't keep Space Hulk in print. Mantic made DreadBall, Deadzone and Project Pandora. Artsy 40k players had been making noises about Warriors of Hrud (space skaven) at least since they were shown in the 3rd edition 40k rulebook illustration.

Like small mammals at the feet of dinosaurs, nibbling on eggs and waiting for their time to arrive

CMON's Wrath of Kings line at least had an aquatic faction with the Hadross, for what it's worth.

Closest I've seen so far to a full fledged fishman army, but most of them were "changed" humans and didn't really resemble fish.

They did have jellyfish men though. And giant crabs and shark men. Plus lots of tridents and tentacles.

Now if they'd just get around to actually delivering it...

I was hoping for two aquatic armies, one that was fish, eels, frogs to represent rivers and streams, and one that is crabs, different fish, squid, sharks, etc to represent oceans, then one can be good and one neutral, or neutral and evil, etc. Just an idea.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
CMON's Wrath of Kings line at least had an aquatic faction with the Hadross, for what it's worth.


Now if they'd just get around to actually delivering it...

They have still not delivered it?!? I was considering backing that one for the Hadross too.

On topic the tweaks mentioned seem simple and effective enough. If you have fantasy armies that are unused the ruleset is brilliant for quick but also tactical games. As for analogue armies maybe somebody at Mantic can come up with some sort of "official" army calculator thing?

So any pictures of what's going to be in the KS?

NTRabbit wrote:
I was hoping for two aquatic armies, one that was fish, eels, frogs to represent rivers and streams, and one that is crabs, different fish, squid, sharks, etc to represent oceans, then one can be good and one neutral, or neutral and evil, etc. Just an idea.

They might be able to play with the aliens presented in Dreadball that match some of the stuff you're talking about since they have turtle men and crab/squid men.

I think Mantic trying to move away from incorporating Warhammer armies is cool in as much as they are trying to be their own system, which is commendable. What it misses out on though is that Warhammer is the dominant unit/army based tabletop game out there at the moment, which is currently in a bit of a spiral nosedive, and if the rumours are true and it's going to become a skirmish game, a lot more people are likely to want to look for alternatives.

For some armies this is easy enough to do - KoM is easy to represent with the majority of an Empire army, same goes for Undead, with both instances missing out on the very biggest of creatures (Terrorgheist, Karl Franz on Stormclaw etc) or extraordinary machines (Celestial Hurricanum, Mortis Engine etc). However for many other armies there are no easy parallels. Beastmen, Skaven, Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen etc etc.

I think having lists in the book which reflect a kind of core theme to each of these forces, without feeling the need to make miniatures for them is an ideal way to go. You can hook people into the game, they can see how well it plays, they'll feel supported and included in the game and be able to use the miniatures they already own to play it, and then they can see some cool sculpts and ideas for other forces, and seeing the encouragement and support for the game system, will eventually look at buying some for themselves.

The closest I have got to a Warriors of Chaos list is taking the Basilean list, saying they are evil instead of good (and counterpoint getting whatever bonus it is vs good armies instead of evil), and changing the names around on some of the abilities to reflect their evil nature. I could use the Orc list, but I don't think it's as representative of a WoC force.

This is a golden opportunity for Mantic, and it won't take a whole lot more effort to include with the existing armies. Call the Beastmen 'Beastlords' and let the player decide how they look (fluff background is they can come from any place in Mantica, are barbarian and tribal in nature, and have a hefty amount of shamanism in their setup). The WoC can be the antithesis of the Basilean's, where they are less rigid and more open to a free lifestyle, at the cost of the fact that you are still essentially required to venerate evil daemonic forces, which has its own price in the long run. Lizardmen could be either Beastlords, or their own type of special creation, with an advanced society where while they do have a social hierarchy, it is quite egalitarian in nature, with every part of the societal structure working to ensure every other part receives what it needs so they can best advance themselves as a whole, rather than finding certain rungs disposable and unworthy.

This is a golden opportunity for Mantic to capitalise on the Market Leader's decline, and I would hate to see them not wanting to include 3 or so more lists (which don't even need immediate miniature support), just because they want something Mantic specific. The thing is, the way Mantic army lists are done they are actually quite flexible, so long as you can imagine them being used for other miniature styles.

For example, using the Twilight Kin list I have come up with ideas for making an Army of Mordor list using the ton of GW LotR and Hobbit miniatures I have. I can also use the same list and make a sadistic force of House Bolton soldiers for a Game of Thrones style army. The Undead army list can be used to make a White Walker army (which I intend to do) with the same GoT theme. The KoM list is so wide open you can basically make any kind of human based list you can imagine, from Samurai armies, to Knight/Peasant based ones, to English Civil War styled forces, and any number of iterations between. It's this kind of thing, a nice open style with an easily adaptable set of rules which doesn't limit the imagination which keeps me wanting to play this game.

I hope they take it into consideration, because now is an opportune time to do so, and I would hate to see them squander the opportunity at hand.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I haven't even checked for analogues. Even if army analogues exist, I doubt they cover most of GW's specialist models.

I own Dwarfs, Ogres, Tomb Kings and O&G and a bit of Skaven.

Well yes and no for the reason you suspected - there aren't necessarily direct copies of all the units you might own (monsters being the main culprit.

Dwarfs, Ogres, Undead, Orc and Goblins all have army lists, they don't cover everything.

 GrimDork wrote:
It would be pretty cool to have something to do for my Skaven besides goblins or whatever. I think they do have an unofficial rat-men list somewhere on the forums, I guess if the same rules committee that works out the kinks in the game writes lists like that they'd be pretty respectable.

The Ratmen list was actually written by one of the rules committee as it happens (and IIRC the early drafts had input from someone else who is on the committee), so it's as unofficially official as it can be right now

Considering that they will keep the rules and army lists free on the web, using a Kickstarter for a print edition makes sense.

 JoshInJapan wrote:

 cygnnus wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?

I can't exhault this enough! GW has basically killed my interest in playing WHFB, but I have several armies without direct analogues in KoW. If Mantic can come out with something, even not fully official but playable in pickup games, that'd let me play with my toys at my FLGS I'd be very, very happy. Otherwise, they probably stay on the shelf and KoW, for me, would be an interesting but failed endeavor.

Valete,

JohnS

Several? Skaven, Lizardmen, and what else?

Lizardmen? Nope... That's about the only army I've never had models for. Now, the old WHFB Slann on the other hand...

But I digress... Beastmen, Skaven, and High Elves. Although I suppose High Elves proxy well enough in the KoW rules. To be honest, I haven't checked that one since they're really the most back-burner of my WHFB armies at this point...

Valete,

JohnS

Right I've spoken to the Stewdio and confirmed that the "missing" armies won't be done officially. They don't want factions without model support other than KoM (nature and abyssals outstanding of course) and any new races they develop will be Mantic originals, not GW substitutes.

He likes and endorses the idea of the rules committee writing, balancing and publishing "fan" lists online (probably on the Mantic website) that would be official in all but name. They won't be printed in the hardback and wouldn't be allowed at official Mantic tournaments, but strongly encouraged and endorsed for casual play and unofficial tournaments.

Is that a good enough compromise for people? :-)

 Rolt wrote:
WFB going's skirmish scale???

When did this happen or whats the rumors on this (got a link?), I don't play any GW games currently so I don't really keep up to date with their news.

Nothing has been said by GW about this, but...

Take this with a grain of salt, but we have been hearing a lot of 'traffic' about this here at Mongoose HQ - a new edition of WFB in the summer of 2015 that is going to be 'more like 40k'. If the End Times really is designed to put a cap on the current edition (remember, GW have done Big Things Happen books before without substantially altering games, starting way back when with Armageddon 3), then it does make for a nice segue into that kind of game. We have heard that the decision was between going 40k-ish or ending WFB entirely, based on the relative sales between the two.

Again, take all this with a grain of salt - this is the story floating around the industry side of things. And one doubt I do have is that they are releasing big models like Nagash which seem more geared for big battles - being plastic, they are unlikely to just end those models. Then again, you do get big models (titans!) in 40k, so perhaps it does make sense. Maybe Mantic have heard something a bit more solid and are proceeding with KoW 2.0 to fulfil the perceived gap.

Not sure who really knows outside of GW. This is just what is on the grapevine...

 Daedleh wrote:
Right I've spoken to the Stewdio and confirmed that the "missing" armies won't be done officially. They don't want factions without model support other than KoM (nature and abyssals outstanding of course) and any new races they develop will be Mantic originals, not GW substitutes.

He likes and endorses the idea of the rules committee writing, balancing and publishing "fan" lists online (probably on the Mantic website) that would be official in all but name. They won't be printed in the hardback and wouldn't be allowed at official Mantic tournaments, but strongly encouraged and endorsed for casual play and unofficial tournaments.

Is that a good enough compromise for people? :-)

That's probably the best compromise I could hope for. Perhaps someday, when/if Mantic can support tournaments on the scale of the now-defunct Grand Tournament series, that'll feel constraining but for now it'd have to do.

Valete,

JohnS

 Daedleh wrote:
Right I've spoken to the Stewdio and confirmed that the "missing" armies won't be done officially. They don't want factions without model support other than KoM (nature and abyssals outstanding of course) and any new races they develop will be Mantic originals, not GW substitutes.

Thats a shame, I was hoping for some Dark Knights and Evil Barbarians miniatures from mantic.

NTRabbit wrote:
I was hoping for two aquatic armies, one that was fish, eels, frogs to represent rivers and streams, and one that is crabs, different fish, squid, sharks, etc to represent oceans, then one can be good and one neutral, or neutral and evil, etc. Just an idea.

You're still committing the sin of beastmen armies I mentioned earlier, where generic "beastmen" really means you want to tool 6+ different subraces with no overlap.

I would like to see an aquatic army as well, but not either of the ones you mentioned. The one I proposed was a Neutral counts-as Lizardmen faction, with Atlanteans playing the role of lightly armoured skirmishers, Naga playing the role of heavy infantry, and an Atlantean-Naga hybrid (i.e. a Mermaid) on a palanquin replacing the Slaan Mage Priest. Even if you still wanted to make one of your aquatic beastmen armies, pretty, civilised Atlanteans would create a better contrast than two different types of ugly beasts.

Really looking forward to this!

Orlando - Are you up for doing the thread title updating and KS stretch goal tracking on this one? I don't have the time to do my usual thing with the threads at the moment unfortunately!

Yes, I'll keep this one up to date

(although I probably won't be able to do it immediately the stretch goals hit in the first day or two, but I should be able to get a couple of updates a day in)

At least for now, I think you can make any Warhammer army work well if you're willing to mix and match armies a bit. KoW statlines are pretty streamlined and somewhat generic (a good thing in my book) in a way that WHFB aren't "counts-as" is easy to do.

Beastmen can be pretty well represented with a combination of KoM and Abbysal dwaves

Lizardmen could pretty easily be worked from Ork/Goblins and others.

Skaven are tough, but again, I think that may be a mix of Ork/Goblin and Twilight kin or some such.

That said, it would be nice if they'd just do a lizard men and rat-men armies with some specific units and army-special-rules. Would certainly be easy enough to do and bring more folks into the game and neither army is unique to GW.

Orcs + Ogres make a good fit for Beastmen, particularly as Orcs and Ogre Braves use 25mm bases and Orcs are a low discipline force.

 jorny wrote:
Considering that they will keep the rules and army lists free on the web, using a Kickstarter for a print edition makes sense.

If that [free web rules + free army lists] continues then I agree.
I have no reason to believe they would change their practice of keeping the rules free.