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 Ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 whembly wrote:

At the very least, the Castros need to be out of power.

I don't really understand the unique obsession the US has with the Castro regime, at least outside the fact that Florida is a swing state.

They're commie bastiches that's an affront to human decency?

.... and this wasn't a consideration, somehow, when we granted China Most Favored Nation trading status?

Nope... we like 'em better.

Who else is going to fuel our capitalist tendencies? Besides, that situation is an example of "freedom" growing in that part of the world.

How would that work in Cuba? China had the resources/people to become the economic force they're currently experiencing.

Do you think that'll happen to Cuba? With the Castro regime still running the show?

I too have never understood the particular beef we have with Cuba.

? Have you done any research on this? Or, are you in the mind of "enough is enough"?

 Jihadin wrote:
Have to wait for the other Castro brother to die because its not changing.

Actually, Raul has brought in quite a few reforms since becoming leader.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Have to wait for the other Castro brother to die because its not changing.

Actually, Raul has brought in quite a few reforms since becoming leader.

Source? I just googlefu'ed this and I'm not seeing anything in the first couple of pages.

 whembly wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Have to wait for the other Castro brother to die because its not changing.

Actually, Raul has brought in quite a few reforms since becoming leader.

Source? I just googlefu'ed this and I'm not seeing anything in the first couple of pages.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/04/26/raul.castro/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/05/02/us-cuba-reform-idUSN1435806920080502

http://cubafile.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/cubans-who-work-more-will-get-higher.html

There's also his daughter who has campaigned extensively to improve the standard of life for the cuban LGBT community by educating the people about the community in order to reduce the hostility faced by them, as well as education about HIV and contraception. Quite hard work to chip away at some of the ingrained prejudices but so far they have made sex reassignment surgery and hormone therapy available on the cuban healthcare system, free of charge.

http://www.cenesex.org/wp-content/themes/cenesex-construccion/about-us/

 whembly wrote:


Who else is going to fuel our capitalist tendencies? Besides, that situation is an example of "freedom" growing in that part of the world.

How would that work in Cuba? China had the resources/people to become the economic force they're currently experiencing.

Do you think that'll happen to Cuba? With the Castro regime still running the show?

I believe the term someone used earlier was Coca Cola diplomacy. Captain Morgan and Bacardi will roll in to make rum, Starbucks will move in to make coffee, the cigar companies will want to increase production, tourists will come in, etc.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 whembly wrote:


Who else is going to fuel our capitalist tendencies? Besides, that situation is an example of "freedom" growing in that part of the world.

How would that work in Cuba? China had the resources/people to become the economic force they're currently experiencing.

Do you think that'll happen to Cuba? With the Castro regime still running the show?

I believe the term someone used earlier was Coca Cola diplomacy. Captain Morgan and Bacardi will roll in to make rum, Starbucks will move in to make coffee, the cigar companies will want to increase production, tourists will come in, etc.

Eh... I doubt that'll make the Cuban's lives better.

Furthermore, if we're going to "give up" the Embargo, we should get "something" back in return.

The something back is the access to the Cubans.

Tourists will spend US money, talk about US things, give the Cubans a view of what it is like to not live under Castro.

Sometime a free flow of people, and the attached money and information, is more powerful than any other "deal".

 whembly wrote:

Eh... I doubt that'll make the Cuban's lives better.

Furthermore, if we're going to "give up" the Embargo, we should get "something" back in return.

Cuban Cigars being allowed to be sold legally in the USA?

Amusing fact, when JFK was thinking of the embargo he tried to have cuban cigars exempted from it.

 whembly wrote:
President Obama gives himself A-plus for 2014

I wish I could have given myself grades in high school. I'd have done a whole lot better.

Thought this would be a good thread to post about more Obamacare fun coming:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/02/pf/taxes/obamacare-income-tax-subsidies/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 d-usa wrote:
The something back is the access to the Cubans.

Tourists will spend US money, talk about US things, give the Cubans a view of what it is like to not live under Castro.

Sometime a free flow of people, and the attached money and information, is more powerful than any other "deal".

Tourists already spend money... just make a stop in Mexico first. The embargo isn't like a "force field" around the island. Other nations trade with them just fine.

Fact of the Matter is that it's truly a communist country, where the elites has absolute control.

:shrug:

I just don't see anything changing *if* the embargo goes away/relations are normalized.

 Jihadin wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

My obsession with Cuba. Getting one of their classic vehicles they're still using. You know damn well you be in line if you could Dogma

All the more reason to normalize relations.

I rather go full bore with someone more willing in the Cuban leadership who actually share that same goal. One willing to meet whatever benchmarks we set.

This attitude is the problem in american foreign relations. Why does Cuba have to jump through your hoops? Why should they care what benchmarks you set? Why does your country, think other nations need your approval, for their duly elected representatives? (Egypt)

america set up the embargo, if they want to drop it, fine. If they want to continue it, fine. It has nothing to do with Cuba.

Exhibit: B of why Obama's foreign policy is in "shambles".

So, we have Obama, in less than a month ago, opined that the sanctions against Cuba doesn't work.

And yet...

He's authorizing, via EO, additional sanctions to North Korea over the Sony hacking ordeal. (which its possible that it was an inside job!)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/01/02/executive-order-imposing-additional-sanctions-respect-north-korea

 whembly wrote:

Eh... I doubt that'll make the Cuban's lives better.

It probably won't, but why should the US care?

 whembly wrote:

Furthermore, if we're going to "give up" the Embargo, we should get "something" back in return.

The US will, it won't have to deal with this stupid "issue" anymore. An issue it largely created.

 dogma wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Eh... I doubt that'll make the Cuban's lives better.

It probably won't, but why should the US care?

From a libertarian view... you do have a very solid point.

However, the dirty politics of it is simply because of Florida imo. I was shocked that its still a hot topic for that State.

Logically, I'd think that original expats got old or died, and that the new generation wouldn't care.

 whembly wrote:

Furthermore, if we're going to "give up" the Embargo, we should get "something" back in return.

The US will, it won't have to deal with this stupid "issue" anymore. An issue it largely created.

Then it signals "surrender" unfortunately.

That's not something you'd do lightly.

 whembly wrote:
Then it signals "surrender" unfortunately.

You'd have to be neck deep in Kool-Aid to think of it as surrender. Sorry, "surrender".

 whembly wrote:

Logically, I'd think that original expats got old or died, and that the new generation wouldn't care.

Castro's takeover was in '59. That means lots of original ex-pats are probably in their 60's, or 70's. You can probably also add in their kids as well, because they would likely be part of a 1.5 generation.

 whembly wrote:

Then it signals "surrender" unfortunately.

To what? The threat Cuba posed to the US was from the USSR during Cold War, which ended long ago.

 whembly wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Eh... I doubt that'll make the Cuban's lives better.

It probably won't, but why should the US care?

From a libertarian view... you do have a very solid point.

However, the dirty politics of it is simply because of Florida imo. I was shocked that its still a hot topic for that State.

Logically, I'd think that original expats got old or died, and that the new generation wouldn't care.

According to this article, cuban expat support in Miami for the trade embargo is waning, with 48% in favour of it in a 2014 survey, compared to 87% in the 1991 survey.

Though, critically, the current opinion among registered voters is 51-49 in favour of the embargo, though I imagine that that split is narrower than it has been before.

Another aspect of the US not going to lift the embargo or normalize relationship on a economic scale is once the other brother opts out naturally and the country economy collapse is we're not the sole freaking country doing another nation rebuild. Ball Parking here

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

According to this article, cuban expat support in Miami for the trade embargo is waning, with 48% in favour of it in a 2014 survey, compared to 87% in the 1991 survey.

Though, critically, the current opinion among registered voters is 51-49 in favour of the embargo, though I imagine that that split is narrower than it has been before.

One reason why the expats might be starting to favor lifting the embargo is because of their age. They're in their 60s and 70s. At that point, you kind of start to realize that it might be nice to see that cousin or old friend you had to leave behind 50+ years ago before it's too late.

 Ahtman wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Then it signals "surrender" unfortunately.

You'd have to be neck deep in Kool-Aid to think of it as surrender. Sorry, "surrender".

Really?

You do know that an "American Most Wanted" is living there...right? If we do establish diplomatic relations, and get concessions like:
- Extradition?
Or
- Resolve the old property disputes?
Or
- Many other things.

Unilaterally saying "no mas" without getting anything in return is a "surrender".

 whembly wrote:

Unilaterally saying "no mas" without getting anything in return is a "surrender".

What do we call pretending that we didn't get anything in this "surrender"?

- We got a US citizen out of a Cuban prison.
- We got Rolando Sarraff Trujillo out of a Cuban prison.
- Cuba will release 53 political prisoners.
- Cuba will relax restrictions on internet access to information
- We will have an embassy in Cuba.
- US citizens will have easier access to Cuba.
- US banks will have an easier time doing business with Cuba

You do know that an "American Most Wanted" is living there...right?

You know that guys that blew up a Cuban airliner were never send back to Cuba and one of them is still living here...right?

Of course, like so many things Obama, it was interesting to watch you go from "Yeah, Obama did a good thing" to "No, Obama did a bad thing" in less than 24 hours.

 d-usa wrote:

Of course, like so many things Obama, it was interesting to watch you go from "Yeah, Obama did a good thing" to "No, Obama did a bad thing" in less than 24 hours.

Uh huh... everything he touches turns to gold for you, amirite?

I can see the rest of your points, but i don't understand how relaxing internet access in cuba is a win for america? It sort of feels like maybe america should have insisted some new sport be introduced to cuba as well. We'll trade prisoners, we'll do business, but your citizens MUST take up yodeling as a past-time!

And that's not what d-usa said at all.

You're acting like a pretty good example of why things don't get done. You don't even respond to the points he made, you just make a snide remark.

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

Of course, like so many things Obama, it was interesting to watch you go from "Yeah, Obama did a good thing" to "No, Obama did a bad thing" in less than 24 hours.

Uh huh... everything he touches turns to gold for you, amirite?

Are you denying that you did a complete 180 on this subject?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Torga_DW wrote:
I can see the rest of your points, but i don't understand how relaxing internet access in cuba is a win for america?

I don't know if it will end up being a win. But it's not "nothing".

My guess is that giving people the internet is supposed to serve the same purpose as the trade embargo.

Embargo: Cuban citizens don't get stuff, Cuban citizens ask "why don't we have stuff?", Cuban citizens go "we want stuff" and overthrow Castro.
Internet: Cuban citizens see stuff, Cuban citizens ask "why don't we have stuff?", Cuban citizens become Bronies and Castro leaves the island.

Or something like that...

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

Of course, like so many things Obama, it was interesting to watch you go from "Yeah, Obama did a good thing" to "No, Obama did a bad thing" in less than 24 hours.

Uh huh... everything he touches turns to gold for you, amirite?

Are you denying that you did a complete 180 on this subject?

No. I was initially interested with some caveats.

The caveat being, that the Obama administration is such a JayVee group.

So to summarize:

You: We got nothing!
Me: We got a number of things. You supported this decision and changed your mind within 24 hours.
You: You love everything Obama does!
Me: Are you denying that you changed your mind?
You: Obama said something stupid about ISIS!

Are we going to have an actual conversation grounded in reality about any subject today, or are we done here?

 d-usa wrote:
So to summarize:

You: We got nothing!
Me: We got a number of things. You supported this decision and changed your mind within 24 hours.
You: You love everything Obama does!
Me: Are you denying that you changed your mind?
You: Obama said something stupid about ISIS!

Are we going to have an actual conversation grounded in reality about any subject today, or are we done here?

We both need a time out.

We're talking at each other, not too to each other.

No, you're the one doing that "at" talking. You're not even trying to respond to his points at all.

It's really fething sad to watch really, especially when after all of it you claim "both sides are at fault" when no, it's YOU.