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 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:


it just wasn't that bad. A wave serpent with TL brigh lance, Shuriken cannon, vector engins, and spirit stones was 175pts and it was still BS 3. In 4th the average game was1850 that is 9% of your points for a vehicle that had very limited rolls. Plus you stull had to buy a unit to put in it.

Almost nobody used the lances for two reasons, first, they were horrifically overcosted, and second, they just weren't necessary given the way vehicles worked, being able to kill on glances and pretty much shut down any gun-tank with any successful glance or pen. Scatterlasers were the big thing, and with those a Wave Serpent was 155pts, and couldn't be killed except by a 6 on the damage chart. Not impossible to kill, but certainly worlds more resilient than almost any other vehicle in the game, particularly in conjunction with the Strength and Pen reducing shield.

With the bright lance it could hunt tanks, but outside a guard player people were not using more then a few vehicles. The bright lance didn't scare infantry because it could only kill 1 model at a time. You could give it TL scatter laser or TL shuriken cannon and go hunting infantry but the best weapon was AP4 so again outside of guard nobody cared because they still had a save, or in the case of Orks and nids more models.

With a scatterlaser it worked just fine at killing infantry and light/medium vehicles (you could still kill outright on glances back then). I don't recall ever seeing a bright lance equipped one, though EML's were common. Scatterlasers were the most common weapon that I recall seeing.

Bright Lance Wave Serpents was v5

I never got any of them, but I did like the look of the metal bloodletters with the furry backs. If I remember correctly they.just had a loin cloth and chains. I don't know how the designers justified giving them an armour save from that. Weren't they the only daemons with both armour and an invulnerable save . A friend of my always takled about making some out of berserkers and beastmen, so the models matched the rules. I don't think he ever did it though.

Oh, 3rd ed chain axes and choppas WTF, crazy rules. That is what you saved that unit of scouts for guard didn't care because everything except guardians and grots ment death for them.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:


Back then most tournaments were 1850, 7 wave serpents and even if you take 6 squads of guardians(cheapest thing eldar have), that is 1565. That leaves you 285 points for an HQ and the grav weapons for the guardians. 7-8 highly unlikely.

So if you don't move the transport you lose the big benefit for being a fast skimmer that most people complain about.

That is a big part of looking back on editions, most of the complaints were things that rarely happened and just tend to be peoples over reaction to codex' they didn't do well against.

I thought v4 was more about 2000 points.

2k didn't really become standard until 5E.

Most places did 1500/1750/1850, UK usually did more 1500 and US more 1750/1850.

morgoth wrote:

I thought v4 was more about 2000 points.

I can't speak for other places but most of ours were 1850 in 3rd and 4th. I can't remember 5th, that's around when I stopped playing tournaments.

 Vaktathi wrote:
2k didn't really become standard until 5E.

Most places did 1500/1750/1850, UK usually did more 1500 and US more 1750/1850.

That makes sense, I only saw the end of v4 and probably became interested in tournaments at the beginning of v5.

 Vaktathi wrote:
2k didn't really become standard until 5E.

Most places did 1500/1750/1850, UK usually did more 1500 and US more 1750/1850.

I mostly recall people talking 1500, myself, and that was in the US. Of course, my FLGS only played 1000 points then, because it was really tiny, so could only fit 4x4 foot tables in them.

Also, don't forget points deflation, people. 1500 points got you a lot fewer models back in the day. It depends on the army, I suppose, but I'd say that the number of models it used to be the most common to field would now be best represented by ~1250 points. If not fewer.

 Ailaros wrote:

Also, don't forget points deflation, people. 1500 points got you a lot fewer models back in the day. It depends on the army, I suppose, but I'd say that the number of models it used to be the most common to field would now be best represented by ~1250 points. If not fewer.

There is no points deflation for Eldar from the v4 codex to the v6 codex, I don't know how it is for other armies.

Looking at my Deathwing army lists, I'd say overall the points costs didn't really come down much between 4th and 6th edition books. Some stuff became cheaper, some got more expensive.

For Tau, almost everything became cheaper though between old and the new book.

morgoth wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Also, don't forget points deflation, people. 1500 points got you a lot fewer models back in the day. It depends on the army, I suppose, but I'd say that the number of models it used to be the most common to field would now be best represented by ~1250 points. If not fewer.

There is no points deflation for Eldar from the v4 codex to the v6 codex, I don't know how it is for other armies.

Tacticals were 16ppm in 5th (iirc the price in 4th were the same) now they are down to 14 and even get CT for free.
Tau got way cheaper over the board as has been said.
CSM got 3 points cheaper but lost an attack and 1 ld which they now can get upgrades for.
Daemonhunters/GKs is really hard to tell and i would have to search for the pdf-file.

Tactical marines were 15pt in 4th edition C:SM. However, they did not have pistols, and had to pay if they wanted grenades.

Big thing, of course, was ability to take heavy and special weapon for 5-man squad.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
In my area the only thing that was crazy in 4th was the 3.5 Chaos Marine codex. We saw a lot of Daemonets and noise marines. Nurgel could be tough but not crazy. Khorne was good but we didn't see too many of them, I still don't understand how a loin cloth justifies giving blood letter a 3+ armour save , but oh well. The 4th ed dex brought them in line with the rest.

And destroyed the army's soul.

Not a fair exchange.

 Shadox wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Also, don't forget points deflation, people. 1500 points got you a lot fewer models back in the day. It depends on the army, I suppose, but I'd say that the number of models it used to be the most common to field would now be best represented by ~1250 points. If not fewer.

There is no points deflation for Eldar from the v4 codex to the v6 codex, I don't know how it is for other armies.

Tacticals were 16ppm in 5th (iirc the price in 4th were the same) now they are down to 14 and even get CT for free.
Tau got way cheaper over the board as has been said.
CSM got 3 points cheaper but lost an attack and 1 ld which they now can get upgrades for.
Daemonhunters/GKs is really hard to tell and i would have to search for the pdf-file.

Arguably, Tau was near unplayable at that time, so it makes sense that it would see a price decrease.

I also remembered more expensive Tacs, but that doesn't really make for a codex wide point cost decrease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:
Tactical marines were 15pt in 4th edition C:SM. However, they did not have pistols, and had to pay if they wanted grenades.

Big thing, of course, was ability to take heavy and special weapon for 5-man squad.

Certainly worth at least one point, if not more.

I am reading all this, cheers guys

So I went and looked at the penultimate guard list I ran in 4th ed and rebuilt it using the current rules set, and it wound up being only 6% cheaper, but it also got better. Officers didn't used to give orders, for example, nor did priests confer fearless. The sentinels now outflank and the vet squad has 5 more guys in it.

If I go to my ultimate list of 4th ed, I saved 13%. And that is, once again, with stuff getting better. If that's the case, then 1300 is the new 1500.

Not everything has been decreasing over time. Basilisks and land raiders cost the same, for example. But in general, things have been going down in points and up in quality. You know, unless you were running defiler spam...

Oh, also, about mech guard. It may have been difficult to take chimeras outside of doctrines, but I think the bigger problem was the rest of the motor pool. Your only other vehicular options were the regular hellhound, scout sentinel, basilisk and the two worst russes. It became a lot easier to run mech once you had lots of options for artillery and tanks.

 Vaktathi wrote:

insaniak wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Consolidation into combat was another issue, particularly in conjunction with the above two things, in that once something got stuck into close combat (often without ever having been able to be shot at), it could simply move from combat to combat, hiding from any sort of shooting retaliation, and simply rolling up a line.

IIRC, that was actually a bigger problem in 3rd edition. 4th still allowed you to consolidate straight into another unit, but also let the enemy shoot the consolidating unit in the following shooting phase.

Alas, you could not do this in 4E :(

Yeah, apparently I had misremembered...

Still easily countered in most cases by just not bunching your units up.

Or playing Guard, and just swarming them. Seriously, I never met an assault unit I didn't like playing my Guard.

Oh no! A full unit of Scorpions is eating up one of my Guard squads. Let's see how they like 30 more bodies thrown at them...

Problem is that often (even still) they'd win combat by 1 or 2 and sweep the lot, particularly as blobs weren't a thing and Commissars were both less functional and more expensive than they are now.

IG units also were painfully overcosted, t was pretty routine for a basic 10man squad to cost nearly a hundred points after kit, and that was before any Doctrines. A Vostroyan unit was 105pts before an Ld8 Vet Sergeant or any special/heavy weapons.

Blobs weren't a thing, but MSU and speedbumps still were. If your striking scorpions didn't hit close combat until turn 3, and spent the next two turns eating two or three PISs, then they still didn't necessarily make their points back, even with the old consolidation rule.

Plus, if a few of them were killed by bayonets, then the scorpion squad was only worth half points, and that really killed the points conversion.

Also, I can't remember how many times I permanently tarpitted something with a sentinel. They used to be harder to kill in close combat back in the day, especially given how relatively rarer high-S CC weapons were. And you couldn't run away just because you couldn't hurt it either.

... and you couldn't kill by HP either, which means if you did, finally, take down the sentinel, you had a half chance of causing a vehicle explosion and losing a few models in the process. Man, I really miss the sentinel bomb days.

Or when screeners and harassment units had more of a use, specifically in stopping problems like this.

 Ailaros wrote:
Blobs weren't a thing, but MSU and speedbumps still were. If your striking scorpions didn't hit close combat until turn 3, and spent the next two turns eating two or three PISs, then they still didn't necessarily make their points back, even with the old consolidation rule.

With the old costs of guardsmen the probably were

Plus, if a few of them were killed by bayonets, then the scorpion squad was only worth half points, and that really killed the points conversion.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I am reading all this, cheers guys

Agreed! I haven't been keeping as much of an eye on the 40k section lately but I am enjoying this discussion. Enough to consider picking up 4th and seeing if other people in my area are interested.

Pro's: It's 40K and 40K is fething awesome.

Con's: Everythig to do with terrain and LoS.

Vaktathi wrote:Even assuming a minimum sized squad of 5 with no upgrades, if they made it into combat they're going to kill 6 guardsmen on the first round (and likely sweep the rest), and the remaining guardsmen might kill one *every other round* before they get swept.

That's a powerful calculus to work against, particularly with how expensive guardsmen were back then.

Though you could always counterattack with other guardsmen, or the odd priest or sentinel.

Plus, the guard player would have three turns to shoot at those scorpions before they made it into close combat. If they did at all.

Vaktathi wrote:in 4E they were pretty close to as easy to kill as they are now, AV10 open topped (no armored sentinel) and killed on a 5+ on a glance and 3+ on a pen, but as noted Krak Grenades weren't almost universal basic equipment which is the bigger thing, though Powerfists were on any unit that could take them (and had more attacks).

I suppose I mostly played ork, tyranid and guard in 4th ed. Some necron as well. None of them were big on high-S CC weapons.

Tyranid were especially funny. A carnifex could snap one in half, of course, but hive tyrants built without CC couldn't damage them quickly, and zoanthropes and warriors couldn't hurt them at all. The basic strategy was to scout them forward and then make a beeline for the nearest synapse creature and watch as the tyranid player had to either bail out their warriors or run the gribblies out of synapse, which I recall being a lot riskier of a prospect back in the day.

Also, someone mentioned drop pods. The first time I encountered them was against black templar, which pretty much curbstomped me as a guard player. After that, though, yeah, they were rather more hit or miss. Just like how you learned to position troops against the CC wave, you learned to castle against drop pods. By 5th ed, I'd seen them enough to be only rarely bothered by them.

AegisGrimm wrote:Some of the most fun I've had in 40K were painting and converting armies for Space Wolves 13th Company, or an entire army of Kroot Mercs from Chapter Approved.

You can still do that now.

It's a misconception I see a lot about those days. Take guard doctrines, for example. People pine for them, forgetting that the codex that came after still had nearly all of them (except cheesy drop troops), they just didn't have them as a centralized thing anymore. Before you could run veterans and grenadiers and iron discipline, and after you could as well, they just got changed to by-unit options.

What 4th was, was saying "you can't do any of these things" and then coming back and writing chapter-approved exceptions to them. Since 5th ed it's been much more "do what you want". Now that we have unbound, you can't really say that you can't run things you could back in 4th ed anymore, while the possible ways you could combine things have exploded exponentially, way faster than people can write fluff about them.

The rules have become much less restrictive for fluffy players, not losing things they once could do.

Well, that's only partially true if I am reading you right. I really doubt anyone out there would let me use the rules for 13th Company or Kroot Mercs in current edition games. Maybe 13th Company, but their more elite stats would probably be griped about, as well as the Kroot having their old close combat ability back. Other than the lack of older edition armies like those to field or defend against flyers, which would let modern armies eat them alive.

I personally feel like restrictions are more fluffy than having no restrictions.

For example I think its fluffy for a riptide to be restricted to 1 per 1500 points (example) but entirely unfluffy for them to make their own army.

This is why I like doctrines in my 4e book. Because it restricts and through those restrictions you get options and choices.

The current codex doesnt do this and in my opinion only gets worse. Thats my opinion though, I think restrictions are a good indicator of how well done a game is in both balance and options.

I like the old system too, but really? You have more options when you have fewer options?

In a way, 4th ed was paint by numbers, while 7th ed is a blank canvas. Certainly not everyone can stare at a blank word document and write a novel in it or stare at a ball of clay and see the pot in their mind. The sort of creativity is a function of problem solving thing - no problem, no creativity, even if you want there to be.

... but. You can still, as mentioned, replicate all that old stuff in one form or another with the current rules, and those people who are more adroit at painting on blank canvases have a bit more space to work with.

Yea.

I dont think blank canvas works for fluff or balance personally. I think blank canvas only works in certain situations.

I like options, but limited in a sensible way. Like for example currently conscripts are limited to one per platoon. I need to take 25 men per conscript squad.

Back in 4th edition I could have a conscript army but at the cost of other options. Which I find both fluffy through the use of options. Thats just an example.

Of course doctrines arent very good either, but I like that system better. Its less generalist and more specialist in terms of options. But you didnt have to use doctrines if you wanted generalist. Which I thought was fine.

 Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Even assuming a minimum sized squad of 5 with no upgrades, if they made it into combat they're going to kill 6 guardsmen on the first round (and likely sweep the rest), and the remaining guardsmen might kill one *every other round* before they get swept.

That's a powerful calculus to work against, particularly with how expensive guardsmen were back then.

Though you could always counterattack with other guardsmen, or the odd priest or sentinel.

I don't recall Priests ever getting use, they were 40pts, and largely just made your units unable to shoot well and all they really offered is the current equivalent of "hatred". I don't think I ever saw even just a speculative army list that included them. You could throw more guardsmen in, but often you'd need 3x their number to really make the difference, and with the raw number of bodies even just two units have it was hard to get that many in.

Plus, the guard player would have three turns to shoot at those scorpions before they made it into close combat. If they did at all.

Depending on how they were deployed. Often they'd infiltrate and you'd get one or two turns of shooting, or they'd be in a Wave Serpent, they'd zoom up on turn one and then unload and assault on turn 2.

This isn't to say everything was impossible, but there's a reason IG were largely a joke in competitive terms throughout both 3E and 4E, being almost completely absent from top tables in GT's until the 2009 book came out, they weren't an army anyone really needed to remember and think of when they designed and built lists.

I suppose I mostly played ork, tyranid and guard in 4th ed. Some necron as well. None of them were big on high-S CC weapons.

I don't think I saw an Ork army in something beyond a 1000pt game until the 2008 codex came out, and by then they all had Powerklaws

Necrons generally wouldn't assault anything except with Destroyer Lords or the odd Wraith.

Tyranid were especially funny. A carnifex could snap one in half, of course, but hive tyrants built without CC couldn't damage them quickly, and zoanthropes and warriors couldn't hurt them at all. The basic strategy was to scout them forward and then make a beeline for the nearest synapse creature and watch as the tyranid player had to either bail out their warriors or run the gribblies out of synapse, which I recall being a lot riskier of a prospect back in the day.

I don't think I saw a single Tyranid warrior in all of 4E (to be fair, I haven't seen them much since then either). Tyrants didn't need a whole lot of CC, they got 2d6 for armor pen and three attacks base. I think every Tyranid list I faced in 4E was either infiltrating Stealershock, or 7-8 Monstrous Creature Nidzilla.

Also, someone mentioned drop pods. The first time I encountered them was against black templar, which pretty much curbstomped me as a guard player. After that, though, yeah, they were rather more hit or miss. Just like how you learned to position troops against the CC wave, you learned to castle against drop pods. By 5th ed, I'd seen them enough to be only rarely bothered by them.

Drop pods were also a lot funkier, they couldn't come in turn 1, and the old reserve rolls spread stuff out more, also they required opponents permission in "non-standard" missions

 Ailaros wrote:
So I went and looked at the penultimate guard list I ran in 4th ed and rebuilt it using the current rules set, and it wound up being only 6% cheaper, but it also got better. Officers didn't used to give orders, for example, nor did priests confer fearless. The sentinels now outflank and the vet squad has 5 more guys in it.

If I go to my ultimate list of 4th ed, I saved 13%. And that is, once again, with stuff getting better. If that's the case, then 1300 is the new 1500.

Not everything has been decreasing over time. Basilisks and land raiders cost the same, for example. But in general, things have been going down in points and up in quality. You know, unless you were running defiler spam...

Oh, also, about mech guard. It may have been difficult to take chimeras outside of doctrines, but I think the bigger problem was the rest of the motor pool. Your only other vehicular options were the regular hellhound, scout sentinel, basilisk and the two worst russes. It became a lot easier to run mech once you had lots of options for artillery and tanks.

I think this is more of a lateral shift. Its the codex that allowed the Guard to be stronger, not the current rule set. I can think of a few current codexs that would love rending to still be determined on the to hit roll. Or that Furious Charge still gave +1 Initative. Saying the 7th ed codex is stronger than the 4th just isn't correct. I know for a fact that a few SM armies still wish that Tiggy + Fear the Darkness was an auto win against low LD armies. I know I wish my old Ork Speed Freek army was still viable with a burna and scorcha in every squad. Also the deliciousness of a preliminary bombardment.

I also think in the spirit of the original OP statement we are all getting caught up in the memories of the tournament competitive lists. Yeah, competitive Eldar skimmer spam was horrible. But the only skimmer that the OPs armies, SM and Guard, have access to is the landspeeder. The skimmers moving fast rule will not be a game breaker here. I also would assume that most armies that show up to play this sort of game would be of the pick up, none super competitive variety as many of the units that did exist no longer exist and instead of doing massive weapon swaps for a weekend game, you will end up with a lot more armies that just bring what still fits, instead of tailored.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Problem is that often (even still) they'd win combat by 1 or 2 and sweep the lot, particularly as blobs weren't a thing and Commissars were both less functional and more expensive than they are now.

IG units also were painfully overcosted, t was pretty routine for a basic 10man squad to cost nearly a hundred points after kit, and that was before any Doctrines. A Vostroyan unit was 105pts before an Ld8 Vet Sergeant or any special/heavy weapons.

IG didn't have blob squads as they did in 5th or the current book. However the 3.5 dex did have Conscripts 20-50 of them with an independent commissar were great at holding things up. I remember rifle butting a carnifex to death on a few occasions with them.