If Marneus Calgar Died...

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**locarno24**

Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Actually Badab was the next Ultramar. After Lugft Huron finally lost his rag with the Badab Sector governors and essentially declared martial law with Astral Claw governors installed to keep control, the Realm of Ultramar was supposedly the big legal precedent he used to justify this to Terra.

**Deadshot**

locarno24 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Actually Badab was the next Ultramar. After Lugft Huron finally lost his rag with the Badab Sector governors and essentially declared martial law with Astral Claw governors installed to keep control, the Realm of Ultramar was supposedly the big legal precedent he used to justify this to Terra.

Badab War was what I meant. It was a sarcastic jab meaning "Ultramar will be the second Badab war of Marine vs Marine on a huge scale."

**dusara217**

Deadshot wrote:
lcmiracle wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Let me re-emphasise this; 9 PDF forces of 10,000 or so human soldiers; vs a Space Marine Legion of 200, 000 Astartes, vehicles like Land Raiders, Fleets that would demolish 'modern' Navy Battlegroups, superheavy tanks that are far superior to anything the PDF or IG have access to, alongside Titan support and a Primarch to lead them.

But, for Ultramar these 9 PDF forces consists of hundreds of above decently-trained regiments --

In the case of Ultramar, however, the Ultramarines rule so efficiently and so prosperous that they maintain several hundred well-trained auxilia regiments, ready and willing to join the Imperial Guard when the need arises. -- Codex: Space Marines. "Ultramar". P23

Ultramarines have been made out to be a sort of giant: they are the most well-off, if not the most powerful, Space Marine Chapter in the IoM. And it exactly because of this, if Calgar were dead, Ultramar would have felt no more than the grief that is the death of a venerable Space Marine Chapter Master, who led the most beloved Chapter in Ultramar -- they will remained one of the most well-protected system (barring the Nids), there will be no unrest, no chaos.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

Providing the Baddab War is written, in part, to emphasis the importance of the separation of Space Marine Legions, it'd place the Ultramarines under the same scrutiny as the Astral Claws were under. Although if Calgar died, the next would-be chapter master could be a madman and cause a system-wide rebellion, boasting some of the most powerful Imperial forces there is; sadly, no such candidates exists amongst the chapter's captains.

Let's be clear. I was exaggerating. 9 PDF forces, no matter how well trained, wil never, ever, in a million years, rival the might of a Space Marine Legion. A Legion is the most powerful fighting force in human history. Sure, maybe not largest, 100, 000 isn't big. But when you consider that each Space Marine is worth 10 regular humans, that increases to the equivalent of 1 million. And under the command of Primarchs that number increases 10 fold. Not to mention all their armoured support and personal wargear far outstrips anything a regular human, even Ultramar SDF, will ever get. I was exaggerating about it being Badab version 2, as obvious its a case of 1 chapter with tens of thousands of human auxiliary as opposed to 1 chapter with 3 allied chapters and 10s of millions of humans.

The Ultramarines have several "lapdog Chapters" that would undoubtedly rebel alongside of them in the event of them rebelling, plus a few of the other First Foundings might consider supporting them (*cough* Space Wolves *cough* *cough*), as they are a well-renowned Chapter with unquestionable loyalty to the Emperor, plus you'd have their hundreds of successors who would question their own loyalties and there would undoubtedly be a few who would join the Ultramarines even if they're not lapdogs. So there, you have at least a few dozen other Chapters assisting in the event of rebelling.

Also, the Ultramarines do not have 9 PDFs. They have SEVERAL HUNDRED AUXILIARY REGIMENTS. In case you don't know what auxiliary means, let me translate for you: several hundred Imperial Guard regiments. These regiments receive the materials and equipment of 9 full-output, well-organized Civilized Worlds (lasguns, high-quality armor, etc.) with massive populations. On top of that, you also have the fact that the Ultramarines would provide for them the best training you can get for "ordinary" human troops.

**BrianDavion**

and your evidance that the "lapdogs" would side with the ultramarines is? *crickets* yeah thats what I thought.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

that's because Ultramar is part of the Ultramarine's chapter fief. no chapter fief pays the Imperial tithe. (as their tithe is basicly the services of the space marines)

**dusara217**

BrianDavion wrote:
and your evidance that the "lapdogs" would side with the ultramarines is? *crickets* yeah thats what I thought.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

that's because Ultramar is part of the Ultramarine's chapter fief. no chapter fief pays the Imperial tithe. (as their tithe is basicly the services of the space marines)

Are you kidding me? It's called common sense. If a (in comparison) non influential Chapter like that had started a war as massive as the Badab War, imagine if the First Founding Chapter whose Successor number over 600 Chapters were to rebel. They would acquire followers through a combination of guile and respect before the war even started. If Calgar were to orchestrate an insurrection, then he wouldn't just up and say "feth you High Lords! Face Imperium Secundus!" No! He would decide which Chapters would be the most likely to join the Ultramarines and he would send emissaries to them or speak with them himself. He would be cunning and insidious, and one he had garnered the support of some Chapters (which wouldn't really take long), THEN he would open fire and secede. The Ultramarines have more than sufficient respect and loyalty from their successors ,and hell maybe even from a few of the other First Founding Chapters, that they would be able to gather followers with relative ease in comparison with if ,say, the Angels Vermillion decided to secede.

**Beaviz81**

Anyway, I think if the Ultras were to stray for the Imperial light it would be through the Tyranid-path through infestation. So think Calgar inviiting all his brother-chapters to a toast, and it ends with them toasting under the six-limbered Emperor. Pretty scary thought? Don't you agree? After all Macragge had much of Tyranids infecting them.

**Computron**

What would happen if the nids got ahold of Mr Popsicle himself? How would primarch dna go for the nids? Would make for some interesting new types I think.

**Waaghboss Grobnub**

The Company master of the first Company would probably become the Next Chaper Master. Sicuarius could do it combat wise, but he is still to young and inexperienced.

**e.earnshaw**

If papa smurf died we would all rejoice because the rest of the smurfs would go down with him.

**Computron**

e.earnshaw wrote:
If papa smurf died we would all rejoice because the rest of the smurfs would go down with him.

Without the best and brightest chapter though the Imperium would cease to exist.
I think if the Ultramarines were wiped out they'd replace the entire chapter from genestock and "lapdog" chapters.

**dusara217**

Computron wrote:
e.earnshaw wrote:
If papa smurf died we would all rejoice because the rest of the smurfs would go down with him.

Without the best and brightest chapter though the Imperium would cease to exist.
I think if the Ultramarines were wiped out they'd replace the entire chapter from genestock and "lapdog" chapters.

Ha! The Smurfs are anything but the best and brightest. Blood Ravens and Blood Angels are brighter, and I'd say there at least five Chapters I can think of offhand that are better. Hell, Minotaurs are more effective than the Smurfs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, Space Marines barely do anything for the IoM. If they were exterminated, all that the Imperium would lose are some Ancient Special Forces.

**Beaviz81**

They are the brightest. No question there.

**dusara217**

Beaviz81 wrote:
They are the brightest. No question there.

Bright = intelligent. Blood Ravens are composed of a very large portion of Psykers and receive far more education, which will make them more intelligent. Blood Angels are artists and craftsmen, which will exercise creativity and make them more intelligent. Raven Guard exercise excessive use of stealth, which requires an excess of intelligence or else everybody would get discovered and/or raped anally. 1k Sons are literally ALL warrior/scholars and receive a huge biff to intelligence from that.

Or

Bright = skin color
Raven Guard have literally paper-white skin

Or

Bright = armour color
There are like a trillion Chapters with white armour, so, no.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or
Bright = positive outlook
Blood Angels believe in the possibility of things changing for the better, and thus they are more positive

**Beaviz81**

Brightest as in the armour-category of course. Hell they doesn't look so bright in anything else.

**Deadshot**

The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Deadshot wrote:
The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

This. No other Chapter has set up an actual society that benefits the Imperium more than the UM. All other Chapter have mainly been based around killing xenos, but the UM did this and more for their people. Whilst they may not be the humanitarians the Salamanders are, or the "for the people" rebels the Wolves are, the UM actually created a stable, thriving sub-empire that is countless times better than most places in the Imperium.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dusara217 wrote:
Computron wrote:
e.earnshaw wrote:
If papa smurf died we would all rejoice because the rest of the smurfs would go down with him.

Without the best and brightest chapter though the Imperium would cease to exist.
I think if the Ultramarines were wiped out they'd replace the entire chapter from genestock and "lapdog" chapters.

Ha! The Smurfs are anything but the best and brightest. Blood Ravens and Blood Angels are brighter, and I'd say there at least five Chapters I can think of offhand that are better. Hell, Minotaurs are more effective than the Smurfs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, Space Marines barely do anything for the IoM. If they were exterminated, all that the Imperium would lose are some Ancient Special Forces.

1. The UM are definately one of the better Chapters out there. I will agree that the BA are pretty good too, but the Ravens? Half the Chapter went traitor, I could easily think of better Chapters. And just nope on the Minotaurs - while they may be good at Marine killing, they are hardly more effective than the Smurfs - could they repel an entire 'Nid invasion of their home soil? I think not.

2. Except from critical alpha strikes, choke point defences, morale boosting and propaganda, not to mention their extreme effectiveness over nearly every other Imperial asset of a similar size?

**dusara217**

Deadshot wrote:
The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

Actually, that was Guilliman that set that up, not the Ultramarines. The Smurfs just maintain it along with their legions of clerks and secretaries and bureaucrats.

Also, I didn't say that the Blood Ravens were more effective or better than the Smurfs, I said MORE INTELLIGENT. Big difference.

Also, "best" is a matter of opinion and perspective, unless you're going off of a specific series of statistics, in which case I would love to read them

They may be AMONG the best, but they are not at all "the best period".

Also, I said Minotaurs are MORE EFFECTIVE. They get the job done and they get it done fast, due to their horde tactics. Smurfs operate in smaller groups and thus generally can't win nearly as quickly or effectively as the Minotaurs, who just throw the entire Chapter into a single battle with no heed for casualties since they can replace their dead like its nobody's business.

**BrianDavion**

dusara217 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

Actually, that was Guilliman that set that up, not the Ultramarines. The Smurfs just maintain it along with their legions of clerks and secretaries and bureaucrats.

Also, I didn't say that the Blood Ravens were more effective or better than the Smurfs, I said MORE INTELLIGENT. Big difference.

Also, "best" is a matter of opinion and perspective, unless you're going off of a specific series of statistics, in which case I would love to read them
They may be AMONG the best, but they are not at all "the best period".

Also, I said Minotaurs are MORE EFFECTIVE. They get the job done and they get it done fast, due to their horde tactics. Smurfs operate in smaller groups and thus generally can't win nearly as quickly or effectively as the Minotaurs, who just throw the entire Chapter into a single battle with no heed for casualties since they can replace their dead like its nobody's business.

hoard tactics aren't all that effective. as you're using a lot of resources to get something done. fact is if the Minotaurs wheren't the High Lords pets they'd not have survived.

**dusara217**

BrianDavion wrote:
dusara217 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

Actually, that was Guilliman that set that up, not the Ultramarines. The Smurfs just maintain it along with their legions of clerks and secretaries and bureaucrats.

Also, I didn't say that the Blood Ravens were more effective or better than the Smurfs, I said MORE INTELLIGENT. Big difference.

Also, "best" is a matter of opinion and perspective, unless you're going off of a specific series of statistics, in which case I would love to read them
They may be AMONG the best, but they are not at all "the best period".

Also, I said Minotaurs are MORE EFFECTIVE. They get the job done and they get it done fast, due to their horde tactics. Smurfs operate in smaller groups and thus generally can't win nearly as quickly or effectively as the Minotaurs, who just throw the entire Chapter into a single battle with no heed for casualties since they can replace their dead like its nobody's business.

hoard tactics aren't all that effective. as you're using a lot of resources to get something done. fact is if the Minotaurs wheren't the High Lords pets they'd not have survived.

I said effective, not efficient. Learn the difference.

**KaptinBadrukk**

Keep it up!