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 TheSilo wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I had a thought, people complain about them being marine wannabes, I have always thought about the scions in the fluff as being marine like because they are close to marines but they can be CONTROLLED. Normal space marines are so far from humanity they often go off to do their own thing, and show up when they want to. You call and ask for help from Space Marines and they can choose to accept. Scions are the marine-light specialists the Departmento Munitorum can call upon at will and use as they wish without question. I see them as a more accessible space marine who can fulfill the needs of the guard without all the fuss. Sure they arent as good as Marines, but they follow orders and they arent likely to fall to chaos or disappear whenever they feel like it (im looking at you Dark Angels).

I figured it was always a matter of scions just being way more practical and affordable than marines. It'd be nice to have every guardsmen complete Space Marine training, but that's not practical and most wouldn't cut it. Scions seemed like the more reasonable solution than hoping for the million to one situation where marines are available to drop in to the rescue. Most developed worlds would be able to maintain a scion, kasrkin, or equivalent, but those worlds probably outnumber marine chapters 100:1.

They are probably also easier to control, as you say. But I assume that it's more a matter of resources.

Forgot about that too, cost is a factor, not to mention that with marine they are just as much their equipment and their gene stock, both of which are in extremely short supply. I was in the mode of aloof marines since I just read the vraks book and the Marines would come and go as they pleased for what amounted to a major chaos incursion, leaving the guard to do most of the heavy lifting during the campaign.

I like the Guant/Cain take on Commisars (and not just those two, but the system and other Commisars shown in both series).

MT violates that lore in stupid Wardian ways... yet another reason to dislike Codex:Unit.

Gaunt and Cain were both exceptions to the rule, in that half-decent writers were responsible for their characterization.

MT fluff is bad because it's B-team writing. You could have written a second " Starship Troopers" following an orphan going from a Schola candidate to an officer. Incidentally, that book is better than any 40k fluff ever written.

It's not a bad concept. It's just poor execution by a mediocre writing team. Disliking the unit is attributing responsibility in the wrong place. At the end if the day, it's just a piece of plastic.

Yoyoyo wrote:
At the end if the day, it's just a piece of plastic.

That is the end all of any wargaming argument They're little plastic man dollies that we push around a table going "pew pew" at each other. Of course they're little plastic man dollies that people waste thousands of hours and thousands of dollars on

 Lobukia wrote:
I like the Guant/Cain take on Commisars (and not just those two, but the system and other Commisars shown in both series).

MT violates that lore in stupid Wardian ways... yet another reason to dislike Codex:Unit.

In particular, the good part about those books is it demonstrated that Commissars are assigned to units which befit their particular style of Commissaryness, generally speaking (imperial incompetence is everywhere). A draconian task master is something reserved for mass conscripts, penal units and the like, for in a regiment of volunteers or disciplined professionals they'll only degrade performance. Inspiration, iron discipline, harsh punishment, even compassion are all valid tools of the commissariat, and a proper commissar is trained to use them based on what will get the best results from the given situation or encounter.

As Peregrine said, having them part of some kind of torture-hogwarts and off their best friend because they're told too doesn't build that kind of character, it's nonsensical. Doubly so due to how well received and important Commissars are in the fluff, both as their role in-universe and by being the most popular window into the Imperial Guard via the Ghosts and Cain novels (even if Cain is humour and doesn't take canon especially seriously). Screwing with that so shallowly makes no sense, and only demonstrates the poor quality of writing coming out the "GW Design Team." The core 'dexes might be copy-pastes, but at least they usually don't read like the edgy fan-fiction of an angsty teenager with a predilection for too many chains and spikes as their chief clothing accessory.

"Militarum Tempestus" had potential, but not only was it a total phone-in on the rules, but the fluff is objectively worse than that which came before. At least for the rebranded Imperial Guard codex they stuck with the copy-pastes, and kept that slap-in-the-face name change out of the actual book, aside from the cover.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Screwing with that so shallowly makes no sense, and only demonstrates the poor quality of writing coming out the "GW Design Team." The core 'dexes might be copy-pastes, but at least they usually don't read like the edgy fan-fiction of an angsty teenager with a predilection for too many chains and spikes as their chief clothing accessory.

That's the current GW writers team in a nutshell. Absolute disregard towards previously well stablished fluff, new fluff that reads like gakky fanfiction written by teenagers, "really cool guy" characters all over the place and moustache twirling villains.

With most codexes they're limiting themselves to copy and paste, but then you have certain writers that simply can't resist the urge to add their own silly contributions to everything they touch. The latest fantasy wood elf armybook is a good example of that, you have the usual copypaste which is fine and then... Waaaaaaaard.

@Peregrine

There only is one issue with your vision. While I will have to completly agree on you that the Compliance Test of the future commissar will encourage people to kill and have no attachment AKA develop psychotic behaviors, there is no escape out of the «torture cult». After passing your test you gain access to an even more violent, dangerous and terrorising environment: 40K warzone. You think the drill abbots were cruel? Wait until you meet an ork. You will find them refreshingly bloodthirsty. You thought you would never have to kill a friend again? Tough luck, it's now your most important dutie and you will have to do it again and again.

Plus that test isn't in the vacuum. Every teacher pass several tests to his student, the Complience Test is just the last one. It's the ultimate obediance test hence the name. The idea is to force the children to pass test of various skills that promote team work, cohesion, trust, faith, discipline and excellence and at the end you pull the nasty suprise for the would be commissar.

Of course from time to time, it will produce a falty recruit no test or method of schooling is perfect especially in the Imperium which is rules by mad men and women. Cain is good exemple of that. He is a coward, a drunk and a self centered individual and he is a commissar. You also get people like Gaunt: almost completly blind to reality and dedicated to the Imperial cause no matter what. Commissar aren't made to make sacrifice of their person. That the job of their officers. Their job is to sacrifice others to force the majority to do insane things out of fear. They are fonctionnaly the Guru of your Torture Cult we call The Guard,

 Lobukia wrote:
I like the Guant/Cain take on Commisars (and not just those two, but the system and other Commisars shown in both series).

MT violates that lore in stupid Wardian ways... yet another reason to dislike Codex:Unit.

I just finished First & Only, and honestly wasn't a huge fan. Spoilers to follow...

Pointless Codex
Ugliest transport EVER

On the plus side, the models are actually pretty sweet but they could have just been an elite choice in AM.

I think all of the comments have pointed to a fairly strong consensus regarding the Scions: the fluff is fine (if a bit daft, but that's 40k), the models are pretty darn cool, and the codex is entirely pointless. Even GW knew this codex was entirely inferior to Codex: Astra Militarum because they started selling it a couple of weeks before C:AM was available- seemed like an attempt to get as many compulsive buyers as possible. Since then it has been at intermittent levels of availability, I think because GW can't entirely cut support because that would be cutting out a fairly new codex without a replacement (although I think even they wish C:MT would just go away).

Their "Platoons" typo in the Codex hints that they copy-pasted from the upcoming AM book and spent almost no effort on the MT material. No follow-through on the elite glory-boys idea, no passion, no creativity, no effort. That's the problem -- not that it couldn't have been 100x better.

I don't mind the limited unit selection. Scions are fun to play due to the units they have. Buy they could have been great. More opportunity to customize your army and round out their inherent weaknesses. Choose Warlord traits, make them all amazing, and let them help you tailor your strategies to match your deployment flexibility. Give out more Orders and better synergy. Why not Hit and Run, Interceptor, Relentless, and Vehicle Orders that also play to mobility and the glass hammer theme? Let MT units sabotage uncontested enemy objectives on a D3 so the enemy can't just sit back and gunline from range. Throw in tons of cool wargear to buffer the weaknesses and enhance the capabilities of T3 human infantry. Make the nameless HQ's unique and interesting by giving them creative and effective gear nobody else can have.

Even without 2-3 extra units (Snipers, Forward Observers and a cheap Open-Topped Transport spring to mind) there is a ton of room to make a fun and completely original army. I don't see Scions as more expensive Vets, but the comparison is always springing up. GW didn't do enough to differentiate them to most people. Unfortunately it would have taken somebody who gives a damn to have gotten it right the first time!

 Accolade wrote:
I think all of the comments have pointed to a fairly strong consensus regarding the Scions: the fluff is fine (if a bit daft, but that's 40k), the models are pretty darn cool, and the codex is entirely pointless.

It depends which comments you are reading to obtain your "fairly strong consensus" It seems plenty of people don't like the fluff, don't like the Taurox and think the Scion models themselves are good. Personally I don't even like the Scion models themselves either, they're "okay" but not great and the pricing is insane at $7USD per model.

I am still waiting for the explosion of the 40k universe's "End Times", where it all blows up and they destroy all of their fluff for yet another game and try to redesign it so that they can copyright everything and anything so they can force us ALL to have sub par codices and sub par shiny new models... With the AM Codex leading the way in lowering the bar.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I think all of the comments have pointed to a fairly strong consensus regarding the Scions: the fluff is fine (if a bit daft, but that's 40k), the models are pretty darn cool, and the codex is entirely pointless.

It depends which comments you are reading to obtain your "fairly strong consensus" It seems plenty of people don't like the fluff, don't like the Taurox and think the Scion models themselves are good. Personally I don't even like the Scion models themselves either, they're "okay" but not great and the pricing is insane at $7USD per model.

I guess I should have probably said that there was a consensus that the codex itself was trash. The rest of it is, as you said, rather up for debate

There fluff makes them seem a little SS like just elite mindless goons who do what ever the god emperor tells them. As for the rox I personally think it is a well modeled APC unit with some decent options, Yes there codex is over priced for what it is and yeah we would love to see the kasrkin in a plastic form but I do also like the current models with either the helmets or barrett's option.