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Orks had to get their gak from somewhere... And MT is no where near as Lore Broken as Tau are and their stupid crap. So I like MT

Yeah, as I noted in another thread, there's a difference between Grimdark and brutality just for its own sake.

Grimdark can take many flavors, from Schindler's List to Dredd, but the MT book started veering more into Hostel/SAW type territory where it's shock just to be shocking, and that just doesn't work for what's supposed to be the elite of the Imperial forces outside of the Space Marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
Honestly though the test makes sense. Commissars NEED to be brutal. they NEED to be willing to pull the trigger on a man they may have served beside for years, gotten to know, and be well disposed towards. besides, it's been awhile sicne we read the book, but do they actually end up killing these people? cause the logical thing would be to give them an empty gun, tell em it's loaded and say "go kill your buddy" (course thats not as Grimdark)

Yes, they kill the person, and it's incredibly stupid. A sadistic loyalty test like that undermines the entire concept of the commissar. They aren't just mindless executioners, they're the embodiment of loyalty to the Imperium. A commissar doesn't kill you because killing is fun, they do it because it's they're sacred duty to maintain order (the only hope for success in the IG) and you are threatening that order. It's harsh justice, but you've indisputably done something wrong. But this idiotic loyalty test lacks that element entirely. The victim isn't guilty of any crimes, they're just a convenient victim. The correct response would be to execute the person demanding the loyalty test for failing in their duties, not to mindlessly execute whoever they're told to kill without even considering if they're guilty or not. And it gets even worse because there's a first-person account from a commissar where his motivation for completing the test is explicitly "all I have to do to escape this torture cult is go kill my best friend!". The old commissar is now replaced entirely with a selfish coward who will do whatever it takes to protect their own life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, as I noted in another thread, there's a difference between Grimdark and brutality just for its own sake.

Grimdark can take many flavors, from Schindler's List to Dredd, but the MT book started veering more into Hostel/SAW type territory where it's shock just to be shocking, and that just doesn't work for what's supposed to be the elite of the Imperial forces outside of the Space Marines.

Exactly. Modern GW seems to have forgotten that grimdark can be about more than just shocking the audience with graphic violence and sadism. But I guess it's easier to add a scene of IG soldiers using babies for bayonet practice than to figure out how to include subtle references to how hopeless the world is.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
Help me convince people that Militarum Tempestus are awesome and deserve to be part of 40K!
I basically play them because I like 4*Deep Striking meltas and their models (both old and new), and because I neededn a force disciplined enough to be at the orders of an Inquisitorial conclave who want to fight the notoriously untrustworthy deathwing.

I've been talking about them with a friend, who basically considers them useless space marine wannabees who have no place in 40k :(
I'll admit that their recent codex undermined their "Inquisitorial" aspect a bit, although it is still very possible; and did tone up the grimdark in their formation process (although I do find it reasonable enough for troops who will accompany Inquisitors around and fight daemonhosts and stuff like those guys in Eisenhorn). However, I still love them.
Any chance of some counterarguments?

I guess the angle should be that the Tempestus are the tip of the spear, halo-jumping into hot zones and unleashing a torrent of plasma fire before the enemy can even react. The don't have the durability of Space Marines, so they sure as feth better kill whatever they're targeting, and they'll look cooler doing it. Jumping out of a zooming valkyrie is so much cooler than a clunky drop pod hitting the dirt and letting you out like it's a bus stop. I have liked every incarnation of the storm-trooper models, I don't think the Scions are necessarily better than the kasrkin models, or my 3rd edition spec ops models, or even the old green beret models, but the Scions still look pretty darn cool. Scions are much more practical than the old storm-troopers with their reduced points and streamlined mission, it was never worth paying 16 ppm for BS4 4+ guardsmen. Perhaps their best and often overlooked asset is move through cover, which allows them to auto-pass dangerous terrain tests, so you can deep strike them right into any piece of cover on the battlefield, making them much more likely to survive to the next turn.

Except for maybe Dark Eldar, or an unbound valkyrie list with IG, the Tempestus are the only army that can really pull off the air-cavalry game. Whisking units from point to point, maximizing their impact, grabbing relics or maelstrom points. Ok, so those are the pros...

All that said, they're still not that great. They're deep striking veterans at a 40% markup (when accounting for carapace armor), will always be out of range for orders, and only have 18" shooting range. Even a minor scatter will take them out of rapid-fire range of the target, hot-shot lasguns are mediocre even against their preferred target (MEQ) and they're rarely of any use against what you want your special weapons to target. You basically need to pay 85 points for a MT command squad just to get them voice of command when using the AM codex, and that's still just the junior officer orders.

The MT codex is a skeleton next to everything except the IK codex, and shows a complete lack of imagination. Literally any story about special forces will offer great inspiration about their missions: sniping, demolitions, search and rescue, night assaults, breach and clear, etc. Each of which could have inspired a cool unit for the codex, but instead it's just the basic 5 man Scion squad with special weapons options. There's really no value-added over the AM codex except objective secured, which just as easily could have been part of an AM formation or upgrade. Just making a Tempestor Prime an HQ choice in the AM codex would have done the job.

Two simple changes would make the MT codex completely redundant and make Scions a very cool unit.
- Allow Militarum Tempestus Command Squads to be taken as an HQ choice in the AM codex. If the Tempestor Prime is your warlord, then Scions may be taken as troops choices.
- All Scions squads may carry a tele-vox caster for 10 points, allowing them to receive orders wherever they are on the battlefield. A model with voice of command may issue orders to units with a tele-vox from any distance (not just 12") provided that the ordering model's unit has a vox or is embarked on a mobile command vehicle.

MT command squads as HQs in the AM codex would make the MT codex redundant. Tele-vox casters would allow Scions to receive powerful orders after deep-striking making them potentially much more dangerous.

@Peregrine

You could also see it this way. Commissar are human being. The officers and troopers they survey and fight with can very well be their friends. In fact they share a lot with these people. They fight together, win and lose together, eat the same food suffer the same hardship. You can imagine that this force them to create close bonds. Hell, in some cases they might even fall in love with a one of them. But at any point they might be called to kill them without any hesitation or bad things will happen. Even a brave and competent officer can break under pressure, make terrbile decisions or flee in terror at some point. This doesn't make them less friendly or even competent. It's the sort of thing that happen. A commissar has the duty to kill them quickly to ensure their momentary lapse doesn't spread to the rest of the troop and shock them back into blind obediance. He cannot refuse least it spreads and he cannot hesitate because he has no time and the weigth of his authority could be questionned after. A commissar needs to be able to kill his best friend or secret lover at any point and any time. That's their life. Killing a good recruit to have a better one may seem harsh, but their isn't a lot of ways to prove if a men or women his capable of the worst. For comparision, child soldiers in central Africa are frequently forced to kill their own family and/or friends if they want to stay alive (note that their family were going to get killed anyway, but that doesn't make it easier or less abominable).

And I am of the opinion that the Taurox should be destroyed.

Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

 Ashiraya wrote:
Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

"Hey guys we need a new model APC to go with the elite imperial storm troopers. Let's look at some modern military APCs for inspiration...



"Cool!"


"Looking good!"



"Another good choice!"



"Dear god, what is that atrocious abomination!? Let's not go with that..."

"Sorry man, management says it needs to look like an MRAP. Oh, and no wheels..."

I seem to be one of the few people who actually like the MT book. The fluff was decent, it wasnt exceptional, but it made sense that you would have to bring someone down to baseline in order to make them the elite soldiers they need. The Shield of Bhaal Leviathan book also does a cool job of showing how scions work in combat. Mostly I like the fact that they work in almost complete coordination, each person covering each angle of fire, moving with purpose and speed all with a few hand signals or transmissions from the commanders dataslate. Frankly they should have had some extra rules to back it up (maybe something like battle focus).

The codex itself does have some issues. One of the things I think could be done to fix it would be to drop the cost of Taurox Prime by 20 or more points, that way they are in "sweet spot" of being high firepower and no survivability. Additionally I think that IN THE MT CODEX, and not the AM codex, the Primes in all units, not just the HQ unit should be able to give orders, and the Command Squad would be able to issue 2 orders. This would seem redundant but I could see it working if they made it so you could reissue failed orders, that way the commander makes sure his troops are in line. Or we could go as previously mentioned making it so that all Scion squads could receive orders at unlimited range with Voxs. Other than that the only thing I think they are missing is in codex access to air support, which should have been avenger striker fighters and Vultures, but at the time we know that GW was not "officially" doing Forge World.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

Ceterum autem censeo Taurox esse delendam.

epronovost wrote:
@Peregrine

You could also see it this way. Commissar are human being. The officers and troopers they survey and fight with can very well be their friends. In fact they share a lot with these people. They fight together, win and lose together, eat the same food suffer the same hardship. You can imagine that this force them to create close bonds. Hell, in some cases they might even fall in love with a one of them. But at any point they might be called to kill them without any hesitation or bad things will happen. Even a brave and competent officer can break under pressure, make terrbile decisions or flee in terror at some point. This doesn't make them less friendly or even competent. It's the sort of thing that happen. A commissar has the duty to kill them quickly to ensure their momentary lapse doesn't spread to the rest of the troop and shock them back into blind obediance. He cannot refuse least it spreads and he cannot hesitate because he has no time and the weigth of his authority could be questionned after. A commissar needs to be able to kill his best friend or secret lover at any point and any time. That's their life. Killing a good recruit to have a better one may seem harsh, but their isn't a lot of ways to prove if a men or women his capable of the worst. For comparision, child soldiers in central Africa are frequently forced to kill their own family and/or friends if they want to stay alive (note that their family were going to get killed anyway, but that doesn't make it easier or less abominable).

That isn't necessary and is a stupid waste of resources. Your example is of a murdering band of thugs masquerading as an army. Not a professional military organization. There are far better methods for inspiring loyalty. And there are plenty of opportunities before a commissar is a commissar for them to prove they are capable of doing so without this silly kill random friend who could be a potential candidate for no reason. It undermines the idea of it just like Peregrine said. Think perhaps, that a hero like Creed's son is chosen after his death. Guy one of the best military commanders since Machanirus so his kid is naturally chosen to see if his legecy can be carried on. Then he gets killed to satisfy the test requirement for some other dude.

In the regular fluff, Commissars are simply indoctrinated from such an early age. They are singled out for their extreme dedication. People who wouldn't make the cut would be weeded out far before by their own execution if they showed any such weakness or lack of dedication. This is where their idea loyalty comes from. It is the success at all cost by persevering mentality.

Then they would be attach to a Senior Commissar for training in as a Cadet Commissar. You don't become a Commissar until the Senior guy says so. That means plenty of real life situations are then provided to ensure they are able to make this decision. If you fail in a real life situation you are executed which could be an opportunity to train another commissar in the very thing you are describing while making complete sense. Unlike what you are describing.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

An exalt to you, Senator!

As for Scions...

The tabletop power of Rogue Trader marines was rather similar to the fluff for said marines. Their power was toned down in succeeding editions. The same kind of thing happened to genestealers - 2nd Ed genestealers were absolutely horrifying in close combat, but this was scaled down. It took time for the gaping difference between fluff and tabletop representation to form.
Enter the scions. 99% of the book is spent on telling you how these scions are incredibly disciplined - brainwashed, conditioned, broken down and rebuilt from scratch. They. Will. Obey. Orders.
The other 1% of the book tells you that their leadership is no better than the regular Guard, that they lose access to all the morale- and leadership-bolstering items/orders (e.g. regimental banners, "Get back into the fight!", etc), and their officers can issue fewer orders per turn than their Guard counterparts. Their profile is no better than regular veterans.



I also think that the fluff went in a strange direction.
The Guard are utterly expendable. The ordinary lasgun is rugged, simple, utilitarian.
Marines are super-soldiers. Even their physical creation - let alone training - is time-consuming, expensive, complicated.
The Scions seem to embrace Marine-levels of complexity and expense but are, at the same time, expended in vast numbers. They wear fancy baroque outfits and suffer appalling loses. It's as if GW can't make up their mind on whether to emphasize their high cost or their low cost.

Mallich wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

An exalt to you, Senator!

As for Scions...

The tabletop power of Rogue Trader marines was rather similar to the fluff for said marines. Their power was toned down in succeeding editions. The same kind of thing happened to genestealers - 2nd Ed genestealers were absolutely horrifying in close combat, but this was scaled down. It took time for the gaping difference between fluff and tabletop representation to form.
Enter the scions. 99% of the book is spent on telling you how these scions are incredibly disciplined - brainwashed, conditioned, broken down and rebuilt from scratch. They. Will. Obey. Orders.
The other 1% of the book tells you that their leadership is no better than the regular Guard, that they lose access to all the morale- and leadership-bolstering items/orders (e.g. regimental banners, "Get back into the fight!", etc), and their officers can issue fewer orders per turn than their Guard counterparts. Their profile is no better than regular veterans.



I also think that the fluff went in a strange direction.
The Guard are utterly expendable. The ordinary lasgun is rugged, simple, utilitarian.
Marines are super-soldiers. Even their physical creation - let alone training - is time-consuming, expensive, complicated.
The Scions seem to embrace Marine-levels of complexity and expense but are, at the same time, expended in vast numbers. They wear fancy baroque outfits and suffer appalling loses. It's as if GW can't make up their mind on whether to emphasize their high cost or their low cost.

There is a lot of problems with it and this is the worst. They are just unfluffy. There is a lot that needs to be done differently. The idea that they should be prices more than scouts is laughable right now.

Yea no, I think they're useless.

They are awesome! Granted though I have always liked Storm Troopers and always wanted an army of them as I love the fluff. Even if I don't agree with all the new rules, fluff ect. I still am able to create my own thanks to the fact that my Elysians have their own Storm Trooper Regiments and there is nothing saying you cant run them as Cadian Kassirkin or another Regiments Storm Troopers. The Taurox gets a bad rap but its really not as bad as people make it out to be, especially with a few conversions such as wheels really making a difference in how they look. Really man who cares what anyone else says, if you think they are cool then run them! Any boring old player can play Space Marines or Guard but I like the flavorful niche these guys bring to the table, even if its not the most competitive of books. I also have to laugh at some of the comments being made in regards to "they could have put it all in the Guard Book, ect". Well two things gentlemen, 1. It was a chance for GW to get more money and 2. the same could be said for a lot of the Space Marine armies and Imperium in general.

@nedTCM

What you are describing is still true. Scholam student leave it after their Complience Test (the kill your best friend test for commissar) at teenagerhood. They are then send to their new duties has junior commissar and aren't fullfledge ones until they got the approval of their teacher. Here are a few questions that you should trie to answer.

How would you test the abilitie of someone to kill his best friend or lover without hesitation because he needs to in a difficult situation while knowing that if he fails not only will he be responsible of a terrible misconduct that could causes hundred of lives, but also that you would also pay for his crime because you were resonsible of him to a large extend?

What do that student of yours would need to demonstrate and how would you evaluate him on that specific skill?

epronovost wrote:
@nedTCM

What you are describing is still true. Scholam student leave it after their Complience Test (the kill your best friend test for commissar) at teenagerhood. They are then send to their new duties has junior commissar and aren't fullfledge ones until they got the approval of their teacher. Here are a few questions that you should trie to answer.

How would you test the abilitie of someone to kill his best friend or lover without hesitation because he needs to in a difficult situation while knowing that if he fails not only will he be responsible of a terrible misconduct that could causes hundred of lives, but also that you would also pay for his crime because you were resonsible of him to a large extend?

What do that student of yours would need to demonstrate and how would you evaluate him on that specific skill?

You are so wrapped up in the idea killing a loved one is so difficult or that it is some sort of ultimate test. This test literally proves nothing of the sort. It simply says when someone is watching you will save your own skin instead of making a hard choice which is standing up for principles in the face of death.

If you wanted to see what he would do you would monitor their actions over time in real world situations. You put a person in training and his personal life in tough situations requiring him to make hard decisions and sacrifices. Especially sacrifices of his own body. These are the technique people use to see measure peoples character. And then you indoctrinate that your organization is worth fighting for. From then you monitor them, especially when they think no one is watching, to see how they act and find out if they are genuine. That is the best indicator of loyalty you can have.

I want to help you,... but I honestly can't.

Tempestus are horrible. Just grab 10 Veterans and give them carapace armor.

They are a cleaner, more high-tech and independent version of Stormtroopers. I would rather they just give the new model and retain the name. Or at least make a distinction between the two, as stormtroopers were already in the lore and there are many differences.

 gmaleron wrote:
They are awesome! Granted though I have always liked Storm Troopers and always wanted an army of them as I love the fluff. Even if I don't agree with all the new rules, fluff ect. I still am able to create my own thanks to the fact that my Elysians have their own Storm Trooper Regiments and there is nothing saying you cant run them as Cadian Kassirkin or another Regiments Storm Troopers. The Taurox gets a bad rap but its really not as bad as people make it out to be, especially with a few conversions such as wheels really making a difference in how they look. Really man who cares what anyone else says, if you think they are cool then run them! Any boring old player can play Space Marines or Guard but I like the flavorful niche these guys bring to the table, even if its not the most competitive of books. I also have to laugh at some of the comments being made in regards to "they could have put it all in the Guard Book, ect". Well two things gentlemen, 1. It was a chance for GW to get more money and 2. the same could be said for a lot of the Space Marine armies and Imperium in general.

Yea, but each Space Marine release comes with new units. How many unique units do Space Wolves have? The Tempestus codex was completely half-baked. It's not like it was simply underpowered, they just let the mold dry on the Taurox kicked it out the door and said, "ok go field a Guard army, except you can only take Scions, valkyries, and this av 11 apc."

In a CAD Imperial Guard force (still bound mind you) you can field like 120 scions using their platoon structure. You can field 9 valkyries. It would have taken so little effort to come up with a handful of interesting Scion units if they were keen on making money...they can have these ones for free:
- Scion sniper squads
- Scion heavy weapon squads
- Scion demolition squads
- Scion artillery/orbital strike spotters
- Scions in riot gear (assaulty squad with power mauls and slab shields)

The MT book treads no ground that the IG book doesn't already have, because we've had storm-trooper/grenadier forces as an option since forever. As I mentioned in a previous post, just slotting Tempestor Command Squads into the IG HQ slot would have been enough to replace the MT codex if that allowed Scions as troops. It's just so disappointing, like the Imperial Knights codex, they lack any kind of creativity or planning, and just feel empty as anything except money grabs or ally data slates.

epronovost wrote:
You could also see it this way. Commissar are human being. The officers and troopers they survey and fight with can very well be their friends. In fact they share a lot with these people. They fight together, win and lose together, eat the same food suffer the same hardship. You can imagine that this force them to create close bonds. Hell, in some cases they might even fall in love with a one of them. But at any point they might be called to kill them without any hesitation or bad things will happen. Even a brave and competent officer can break under pressure, make terrbile decisions or flee in terror at some point. This doesn't make them less friendly or even competent. It's the sort of thing that happen. A commissar has the duty to kill them quickly to ensure their momentary lapse doesn't spread to the rest of the troop and shock them back into blind obediance. He cannot refuse least it spreads and he cannot hesitate because he has no time and the weigth of his authority could be questionned after. A commissar needs to be able to kill his best friend or secret lover at any point and any time. That's their life. Killing a good recruit to have a better one may seem harsh, but their isn't a lot of ways to prove if a men or women his capable of the worst.

But you're still missing the point. Having to execute your innocent friend to prove how loyal you are is a fine test if the goal is to create mindless killing robots who will unquestioningly kill whoever you tell them to kill. But commissars aren't mindless thugs. They exist to punish the guilty, not to execute random innocents to prove how awesome they are. Telling a commissar to execute an innocent person as a test of loyalty is a blatant rejection of everything a commissar is supposed to be. The correct response is to ignore the order, declare the person issuing it a traitor, and execute them for attempting to needlessly waste the Imperium's resources.

Plus, don't forget that we have the first-person account of this loyalty test from a commissar who passed it. Their motivation for killing their friend was explicitly "this is what I have to do to escape this hellish torture cult, it's a small price to pay", not "my friend is guilty and so I must Do What Must Be Done as much as it hurts me to do it". That isn't the living embodiment of duty and loyalty, it's a selfish coward who would rather kill innocent people to protect their own life than take responsibility for refusing an unjust order. IOW, not what a commissar is supposed to be.

For comparision, child soldiers in central Africa are frequently forced to kill their own family and/or friends if they want to stay alive (note that their family were going to get killed anyway, but that doesn't make it easier or less abominable).

And I really don't think that "child soldiers in Africa" is a good source of inspiration for the IG. They're supposed to be the best recruits from an entire planet's military, not a band of murderous thugs who spend most of their time slaughtering unarmed civilians.

[MOD EDIT - ABSOLUTLEY Inappropriate for Dakka Dakka - Alpharius]

bibotot wrote:
I want to help you,... but I honestly can't.

Tempestus are horrible. Just grab 10 Veterans and give them carapace armor.

They are a cleaner, more high-tech and independent version of Stormtroopers. I would rather they just give the new model and retain the name. Or at least make a distinction between the two, as stormtroopers were already in the lore and there are many differences.

Veterans can't Deep Strike.

Scions with 4 Plasma or Melta Deep striking will wreck much. Just give them an OM TDA with Servo Skulls and it is still one heck of an Alpha Strike.

 KiloFiX wrote:

bibotot wrote:
I want to help you,... but I honestly can't.

Tempestus are horrible. Just grab 10 Veterans and give them carapace armor.

They are a cleaner, more high-tech and independent version of Stormtroopers. I would rather they just give the new model and retain the name. Or at least make a distinction between the two, as stormtroopers were already in the lore and there are many differences.

Veterans can't Deep Strike.

Scions with 4 Plasma or Melta Deep striking will wreck much. Just give them an OM TDA with Servo Skulls and it is still one heck of an Alpha Strike.

Point of order, only command squads can take 4 special weapons, so you're only dropping in with 2 special weapons or you're paying a 15 point tax just to squeeze in those 2 extra weapons. It'd be very cool if you could stack Scion squads with 4 special weapons, then they'd hit with a vengeance.

That 15 pts extra also gives you a solid chance to TL your weapons.

 TheSilo wrote:

Two simple changes would make the MT codex completely redundant and make Scions a very cool unit.
- Allow Militarum Tempestus Command Squads to be taken as an HQ choice in the AM codex. If the Tempestor Prime is your warlord, then Scions may be taken as troops choices.
- All Scions squads may carry a tele-vox caster for 10 points, allowing them to receive orders wherever they are on the battlfield. A model with voice of command may issue orders to units with a tele-vox from any distance (not just 12") provided that the ordering model's unit has a vox or is embarked on a mobile command vehicle.

MT command squads as HQs in the AM codex would make the MT codex redundant. Tele-vox casters would allow Scions to receive powerful orders after deep-striking making them potentially much more dangerous.

This is the best idea for TM i've heard for a while.

Stormtrooper Dream Codex:

General Changes:
Stormtrooper
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
3 4 3 3 1 4 1 8 4+
Sgt has LD 9
Special Operations: Each unit must choose one - Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Scout with Stealth First turn
Hot-shot Lasgun - Assault 3
Vox - Reroll Order, increase order range by 6
Stormtrooper Orders the same may only be used on Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers can also receive IG orders their army book.

HQ:
Commissar same stats
Stormtrooper Command Squad - 90 points base
Commander - Refractor Field
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
4 4 3 3 3 4 3 9 4+
Commander may issue two orders. Regimental Standard replaces Platoon Standard.

Elite:
Sniper Squad - Hot Shot Long Las - Range 36 - X AP 3 Heavy 1 Sniper
3-5 Stormtroopers. 25 Points Each
One Stormtrooper may trade his Rifle for a spotter scope for 5 points. To hit rolls of 1 may be rerolled, successful cover saves made by target unit must be rerolled.

Troops:
Stromtrooper Platoon - Entire platoon rolls for Reserves at the same time, Each platoon must use same Spec Ops choice
1-2 Squads - Squad 65 point Base
0-1 Platoon Command Squad - Current command squad stats, 1 order, 80 points base

Fast Attack:
Valkyrie, Vendetta, or Vulture 1+ BS upgrade for 10 points
Tarox Prime - Reduced to 65 Points Missile Upgrade 15, Gatling Cannon Upgrade 5

Heavy Support:
Stormtrooper Observer Team: 95 points
May fire either a Basilisk or Colossus Shell always scatters full 2d6.
Maybe take a Range Finder for 10 points - Scatter is reduced by Ballistic Skill if in line of sight.


Characters:
Major Mortensen – Stormtrooper Commander – 90 points
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
4 5 3 3 4 4 3 10 4+/5++
Rules: FNP, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character, 2 Orders, Redemption Corps, Surgical Strike
Wargear – Hotshot Lasgun, Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Power sword
Redemption Corps – One squad is designated at the start of the game as the Redemption Corps. Major Mortensen must join this squad. That squad must pick the Deep Strike special operation and receives an extra attack in close combat.
Surgical Strike – If Major Mortensen and his squad successfully complete a charge each Stormtrooper gains HOW. These HOW attacks have the Rending special rule.

Add in one dual kit with snipers and observers. With these additions, you would have an answer to all their problems. Decent options for long range attack. Better anti-tank at long range. The infantry is still expensive and fragile, but harder hitting to ensure they do damage. Also they better reflect their fluff by having flexible deployment options and assault weapons. You also no longer need to worry about having to arrive directly next to your opponent since your weapon is assault and not rapid fire. Fluffy character and better standard commander model to utilize orders like you should. Cheaper Taurox makes it more useful.

I4?

4W EW SC?

Rending HoW?

No thanks.

TheSilo's idea is better.

I had a thought, people complain about them being marine wannabes, I have always thought about the scions in the fluff as being marine like because they are close to marines but they can be CONTROLLED. Normal space marines are so far from humanity they often go off to do their own thing, and show up when they want to. You call and ask for help from Space Marines and they can choose to accept. Scions are the marine-light specialists the Departmento Munitorum can call upon at will and use as they wish without question. I see them as a more accessible space marine who can fulfill the needs of the guard without all the fuss. Sure they arent as good as Marines, but they follow orders and they arent likely to fall to chaos or disappear whenever they feel like it (im looking at you Dark Angels).

 Ashiraya wrote:
I4?

4W EW SC?

Rending HoW?

No thanks.

TheSilo's idea is better.

3W, Scion commanders are already I4

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I had a thought, people complain about them being marine wannabes, I have always thought about the scions in the fluff as being marine like because they are close to marines but they can be CONTROLLED. Normal space marines are so far from humanity they often go off to do their own thing, and show up when they want to. You call and ask for help from Space Marines and they can choose to accept. Scions are the marine-light specialists the Departmento Munitorum can call upon at will and use as they wish without question. I see them as a more accessible space marine who can fulfill the needs of the guard without all the fuss. Sure they arent as good as Marines, but they follow orders and they arent likely to fall to chaos or disappear whenever they feel like it (im looking at you Dark Angels).

I figured it was always a matter of scions just being way more practical and affordable than marines. It'd be nice to have every guardsmen complete Space Marine training, but that's not practical and most wouldn't cut it. Scions seemed like the more reasonable solution than hoping for the million to one situation where marines are available to drop in to the rescue. Most developed worlds would be able to maintain a scion, kasrkin, or equivalent, but those worlds probably outnumber marine chapters 100:1.

They are probably also easier to control, as you say. But I assume that it's more a matter of resources.