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Help me convince people that Militarum Tempestus are awesome and deserve to be part of 40K!
I basically play them because I like 4*Deep Striking meltas and their models (both old and new), and because I neededn a force disciplined enough to be at the orders of an Inquisitorial conclave who want to fight the notoriously untrustworthy deathwing.

I've been talking about them with a friend, who basically considers them useless space marine wannabees who have no place in 40k :(
I'll admit that their recent codex undermined their "Inquisitorial" aspect a bit, although it is still very possible; and did tone up the grimdark in their formation process (although I do find it reasonable enough for troops who will accompany Inquisitors around and fight daemonhosts and stuff like those guys in Eisenhorn). However, I still love them.
Any chance of some counterarguments?

The guys who accompanied Eisenhorn into fighting Cherubael(or so he thought) in the second novel?

They weren't Tempestus. They were Kasrkin, Cadia's version of Stormtroopers.
Tempestus do an awful job of representing the Kasrkin as well.

Same difference, really, its just their planet of origin that changes.

Scions are pretty cool, but their codex is ass :(

Pointless codex, never should have existed (along with legion of the damned codex and IK)

Any codex that has units still in another valid codex is silly. IK should just be an IoM LoW.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Same difference, really, its just their planet of origin that changes.

It's really not.

The descriptions we have of Kasrkin is less of the "Special Operations" bend that the Scions/standard Stormtroopers were famed for. It's also been the case that the Kasrkin aren't really looked at with jealousy or the whole "toy soldiers" angle that the Scions/Stormtroopers have been described as.

Kasrkin have been described as what amounts to heavy infantry and taking up the role of anchoring battle lines or serving as bodyguards for commanders in the thick of it during combat.

Give "Gunheads" a good read, or the Eisenhorn series, or "Cadian Blood" and you'll see what I'm referring to.

Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

So much this.

What a silly idea and execution of a codex.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Same difference, really, its just their planet of origin that changes.

It's really not.

The descriptions we have of Kasrkin is less of the "Special Operations" bend that the Scions/standard Stormtroopers were famed for. It's also been the case that the Kasrkin aren't really looked at with jealousy or the whole "toy soldiers" angle that the Scions/Stormtroopers have been described as.

Kasrkin have been described as what amounts to heavy infantry and taking up the role of anchoring battle lines or serving as bodyguards for commanders in the thick of it during combat.

Give "Gunheads" a good read, or the Eisenhorn series, or "Cadian Blood" and you'll see what I'm referring to.

Been there, done that, someone mistakes the Kasrkins for Stormtroopers in Cadian Blood

They really should just be in Codex:Minor imperial factions along with inquisiton, ass and thew new ad mec stuff.

 Desubot wrote:
They really should just be in Codex:Minor imperial factions along with inquisiton, ass and thew new ad mec stuff.

I'd be okay with this.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
Help me convince people that Militarum Tempestus are awesome and deserve to be part of 40K!

Beep Beep Get in the Jeep, fellow Loyalist!

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

The Taurox is a decent idea, just that the model is godawful. But the Imperial Guard could use a special IFV that's amphibious and actually has suspension unlike the Chimera.

I like everything about the rox except the wheels. but now vic and zing both have pretty decent conversion kits.

I think Scions themselves are cool, since they're really just the Stormtroopers of old with a cheesy new name that GW feels it has better ownership of.

Their codex, on the other hand, is grade A trash. It's the IG codex with a fourth of the units, a couple of formations, and the same price.

I'm going to take out the Tech Marines, Master of the Forge, Thunderfire cannon and Rhino and put them all in a new codex while still keeping them in the old dex...while charging $50 for the new book.

 Lobukia wrote:
Pointless codex, never should have existed (along with legion of the damned codex and IK)

Any codex that has units still in another valid codex is silly. IK should just be an IoM LoW.

Well I'm glad that you think I shouldn't be allowed to have fun by allying LotD to my guard force. You've opened my eyes to how having that sort of fun is just wrong.

Not interested in the fluff, but they are an army without power units or overpowered weapons to abuse. They have no armour above AV11. You are going to use the Command Squads and never the LC, so your only Warlord choice is 2W T3 with no Invul save. Your units are never going to win on the table through the power of your list. You are only going to win if you, the player, can outwit and outplay your opponent by taking advantage of your deployment options, speed, and flexibility.

Playing MT lets you enjoy challenge, tactics, originality and innovation. There's no "winning formula" for copycats to latch onto. You will never be one of those guys pushing AdLance across the table. Plus it's always fun, either winning or losing, squeezing as much performance as possible out of a codex which gets so much disrespect. Basically you are punking trash-talkers every time you win.

What's not cool about that?

Here is how I would sell Tempestus Scions to others:

1) Tempestus Scions are unique amongst IoM armies because they are the only ones who offer great Glass Hammer style of play which is both challenging and rewarding. Their vehicule are fast, well armed and fragile. Scions themselves are great for Deep Strike deployement, have powerful yet specilised weapons have a low resistence overall, but reliable on the offensive.

2) They have access to unique orders allowing them to improve their specialised weapons for their task without beeing has random than psychic powers.

3) In term of model design, they have excellent models with a lot of possible conversion, kit bashing and options. They have a definite Science Fiction theme, yet still have little bit of gothic/fantasy design in them, but much less than Space Marines for exemple.

4) Their fluff makes them dehumanised elite soldiers raised and trained much like Space Marines (if not in a even more brutal and competitive environment) yet with a little more sexual diversity and option for more hidden humanity for they never transcendated their human nature. You can have the perfect souless killing machine side by side with the elite soldiers plagued by memories of a distant more peaceful life who tries to retain his sanity or the perfect imperial servant who will do anything for mankind.

The current codex offer good options for small scale armies (500 to 1000 points). Of course, has it his currently, it's not enough for anything more than that. But it's not impossible to see them leave the Imperial Guard codex completly and gain a few options unique to them like special snipers, light vehicule squadron like Tauros engines, their own flyer, boarding teams and commandos or mobile stealth generator. I like to see them like gestalting team that may grow with time.

Scions are the only 'umies I would ever consider playing. They look dead 'ard.

 God In Action wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Pointless codex, never should have existed (along with legion of the damned codex and IK)

Any codex that has units still in another valid codex is silly. IK should just be an IoM LoW.

Well I'm glad that you think I shouldn't be allowed to have fun by allying LotD to my guard force. You've opened my eyes to how having that sort of fun is just wrong.

Right, cause making every IoM unit its own codex, so you can ally it into your guard is good game design.

....or they could just make a formation that allows 1 elite from an IoM to join another IoM force (or some similar mechanic). By your snide reasoning, if I think its "fun" to make a "Codex: Centurion" so my Sisters can have three follow them around, than someone else is impeding on my fun if they point out how silly that is?

...or just pay the HQ/Troop tax like everyone else for their allies

No need to separate, just roll em into guard and inquisition.

And bring back old Karskin models!

 Lobukia wrote:

 God In Action wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Pointless codex, never should have existed (along with legion of the damned codex and IK)

Any codex that has units still in another valid codex is silly. IK should just be an IoM LoW.

Well I'm glad that you think I shouldn't be allowed to have fun by allying LotD to my guard force. You've opened my eyes to how having that sort of fun is just wrong.

Right, cause making every IoM unit its own codex, so you can ally it into your guard is good game design.

....or they could just make a formation that allows 1 elite from an IoM to join another IoM force (or some similar mechanic). By your snide reasoning, if I think its "fun" to make a "Codex: Centurion" so my Sisters can have three follow them around, than someone else is impeding on my fun if they point out how silly that is?

...or just pay the HQ/Troop tax like everyone else for their allies

Of course that already does exist with unbound, but sure if you want to run 3 centurions with your army, that's your fun and sure won't complain about it. Sure, LoTD could also have been a formation, I wouldn't care either way. But don't ignore the obvious fact that it is perfectly within the fluff to have lone LotD squads turning up at an IoM force's party, since that's exactly how they operate. Conclusion: if that's fun for someone, then yes it is fun, and Unbound exists for it. I am glad that I can have a Battleforged army though, especially since it fits the fluff to ally a LoTD to Guard.

None of that means you can't criticize the book for being hilariously over priced for incredibly little content. Rules for a squad and some recycled fluff and pictures for $50 when a single line in Codex Space Marines could have done the exact same thing is pretty pointless if you ask me.

 Accolade wrote:
I think Scions themselves are cool, since they're really just the Stormtroopers of old with a cheesy new name that GW feels it has better ownership of.

Their codex, on the other hand, is grade A trash. It's the IG codex with a fourth of the units, a couple of formations, and the same price.

And yet, still, it has way more substantive content than Codex Imperial Knights How did they pull that off?!

I think the problem like a lot of people mentioned is that it is a poorly designed codex. It isn't a bad thing to separate and flesh out armies, but Stormtroopers were a test bed and GW ended up crapping that testbed with it. Stormtroopers like Ad Mech or Assassins are factions a lot people wanted to see and be able to play on their own so this pissed people off even more than normal.

One of the biggest mistakes is the way their theme is out of place with standard IG. If you are an IG player, the main appeal is fielding a quasi historical army or just regular humans within the future 40k setting. Scions are needlessly blingy and resemble wanna be space marines in style. As already mentioned the fluff is poor as well.

The models still do look pretty good and even the short bus can be converted with better wheels to look okay. However, the rules are bad. They were blatantly nerffed and left at a high price. There are a lot of options in the codex that don't really help or make sense. Some of the problems were inherited from mistakes in the IG core book. However, why are my Stormtrooper HQ choices so weak compared to a regular company commander? Why do they only get one order and no refractor field? Why is their leadership so low? Why can't they take a Vendetta as a dedicated transport? None of this makes any sense rules wise or in fluff.

Worse off they can't function as a competitive stand alone army. The formations they have are so poor and don't utilize the fluff and instead focus on making me buy more Valkyries and Taurox.

You couldn't even buy the stupid codex forever without going onto lame itunes. The book itself really just needs to be redone. Right now they are really just a shadow of what they should be.

nedTCM wrote:
I think the problem like a lot of people mentioned is that it is a poorly designed codex. It isn't a bad thing to separate and flesh out armies, but Stormtroopers were a test bed and GW ended up crapping that testbed with it. Stormtroopers like Ad Mech or Assassins are factions a lot people wanted to see and be able to play on their own so this pissed people off even more than normal.

I totally agree with this sentiment. On the other hand, I simply photocopied the important pages from a friend that loves IG, so I can't really complain too much. The mini-dexes would be fine if they were softcover and $20; but being full priced hardcovers makes them hard to swallow.

Storm troopers aren't a bad idea, they just shouldn't have been their own codex and the Taurox is a god damned ugly pile of excrement. A storm trooper list should have just been an optional extra of the main guard codex, a 1 page "you can build an elite force, limited to these units, have access to this extra unit or two, and gain these special rules". Did not need to be its own codex.

Any unit worth a damn probably only shaves when the commissar inspects and routinely trash-talks the Schola to help salvage the poor FNGs that live through training to make it to the unit, like every military everywhere. Agree with the test bed angle, it looks to me like the same writers on AdMech from reading the unit descriptions.

The codex needed a proper gun truck with wheels, a cheap open-topped Hilux equivalent to ride around in, a Kiowa equivalent rather than the Valk to reward close support and some kind of Vector Striking UAV that buffs the troops and get about 2 missiles as a "Finger of God" attack. War has changed a lot since the 80's, some kind of force that represents modern irregular warfare was an enormous missed opportunity for GW.

I still like the Scions though, and homebrew makes them a lot more fun.

Which army is the cheapest, that can bring the most number of Deep Striking suicide Melta / Plasma, and is Objective Scoring?

Scions.

Helldivers as they should be.

I feel that if they decide to push forward with them more units and relics table are a must perhaps a battalion commander as an hq unit or something to that affect as an alternative to the lc or the pcs.

This army really needs to build up and out but it's not that bad it's really ment as an ally codex to compliment another army like I could see them doing well paired with grey knights or blood angels. Heck they have solid synergy with dark angels and offer an alternative to generic marines everyone who owns that codex seems to think are the second thing to blasphemy to ever do (because reasons)

Imperial knights are fine I don't get why people rag on them the paperwork is already down for the next codex for them and it will be awesome once the models get pushed up and out from forgeworld to mainstream plastic. (which the mechanics will be the testbed for).

And I think that admech will join this roster and be pretty cool as well I could see them replacing many units in other lineups as an allied detachment. And still have several tools to handle themselves. Heck I could see tempestus with admech being pretty beast mode because the scions can't stand and fight and are very mobile while the admech can dig in really well and are hopelessly immobile. The yang to the scion ying if you will.