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It's kind of obvious Happy was being tongue in cheek with that comment

I didn't find it obvious and I am a native English speaker. I only realised when I read to the end of his posting and digested it all.

Poe's Law at work

A very interesting read, and worthy of full and careful consideration...

Really, whether or not "the Jews killed Jesus!" thing is correct, any grudge people would hold against people who are Jewish is ridiculous. It's like holding a grudge against the Babylonians. The only reason you are allowed to do that is if you play civ.

 Happyjew wrote:


That said, while I am Jewish, and do believe that a man named Jesus existed and was all about being excellent to one another, there are religious issues with him being the son of god and a direct father to son descendent of David (which is required for the Messiah).

I now return you to your original discussion.

Does this include the female names listed in the lineage list? There are difinitely female names in there , but then again I thought Jews did the female lineage thing.

In regard to the OP - has anyone else thought that this discussion could be less related to conditions in Europe and more related to the opinion of certain political strains of thought that think that Israeli Jews will be outbred by Israeli Arabs and need to find a way to keep control of Israel politically *

*these people may or may not be bigots.

 Bullockist wrote:
There are difinitely female names in there , but then again I thought Jews did the female lineage thing.

Yeah, you are considered Jew only if your mother was Jew, regardless of what your father was.

 Bullockist wrote:
In regard to the OP - has anyone else thought that this discussion could be less related to conditions in Europe and more related to the opinion of certain political strains of thought that think that Israeli Jews will be outbred by Israeli Arabs and need to find a way to keep control of Israel politically *

I do not know, but as a French guy whose mother is Jewish, and who knows a bunch of other people with at least Jewish origins, I know no-one who feels threatened or even considered going to live in Israel. But I may be biased as only one of my uncle is a practicing Jew, and all the others are agnostic or atheists as far as I can tell.

My question is: assuming all the jews in the world decided to move to israel tomorrow, could israel support them?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yeah, you are considered Jew only if your mother was Jew, regardless of what your father was.

The Liberals and Reforms would disagree.

I do not know, but as a French guy whose mother is Jewish, and who knows a bunch of other people with at least Jewish origins, I know no-one who feels threatened or even considered going to live in Israel. But I may be biased as only one of my uncle is a practicing Jew, and all the others are agnostic or atheists as far as I can tell.

That's a fair enough empirical stance to take. It could be that your family is fortunate enough to live in a good area though, as the emigration statistics alone would seem to indicate that this is more than just a scare story.

 Ketara wrote:
The Liberals and Reforms would disagree.

Good for them.

 Ketara wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:

I do not know, but as a French guy whose mother is Jewish, and who knows a bunch of other people with at least Jewish origins, I know no-one who feels threatened or even considered going to live in Israel. But I may be biased as only one of my uncle is a practicing Jew, and all the others are agnostic or atheists as far as I can tell.

That's a fair enough empirical stance to take. It could be that your family is fortunate enough to live in a good area though, as the emigration statistics alone would seem to indicate that this is more than just a scare story.

There was a quote dysfunction here.
Most people from Jewish origin I know (inside or outside of my family ) are academics, so I guess I might be biased. But the thing is, if you do not talk about it, nobody will know you have Jewish origins anyway, so…

 Torga_DW wrote:
My question is: assuming all the jews in the world decided to move to israel tomorrow, could israel support them?

That is a rather unlikely thing to happen but if it did, obviously Israel could not magic up overnight jobs and accommodation for another 8 million people, doubling the current population. No country could manage such a feat.

Yet these putative migrants would not be penniless refugees. The Jews in Europe and the USA at least are very often well-to-do middle class people with education and property.

If there was a general desire on the part of all Jews to move to Israel, a plan could be developed to absorb them over a period of years, selling off their non-portable property at home to finance the necessary development in Israel.

Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.

Speaking as someone who currently qualifies, the knowledge that the Right of Return exists is a comfort on the offchance everything ever goes tits up.

 Ketara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.

Speaking as someone who currently qualifies, the knowledge that the Right of Return exists is a comfort on the offchance everything ever goes tits up.

Now the question arises, should they go to Israel, which is currently in a war zone, or the USA, which is currently in ground zero for the Apple/Google/Walmart wars?
We don't have rocket attacks, but we lose our minds when Walmart has a sale.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/11/video-of-arizona-wal-mart_n_7046392.html

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.

Speaking as someone who currently qualifies, the knowledge that the Right of Return exists is a comfort on the offchance everything ever goes tits up.

Now the question arises, should they go to Israel, which is currently in a war zone, or the USA, which is currently in ground zero for the Apple/Google/Walmart wars?
We don't have rocket attacks, but we lose our minds when Walmart has a sale.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/11/video-of-arizona-wal-mart_n_7046392.html

Amazon will stand triumphant!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.

They should be, but "should" doesn't automatically make it so.

 Ketara wrote:


That's a fair enough empirical stance to take. It could be that your family is fortunate enough to live in a good area though, as the emigration statistics alone would seem to indicate that this is more than just a scare story.

You might have cause and effect reversed there, though. If more people are leaving it may be that they've been scared into leaving by said scare story.

What would Mr. Goldberg be hoping to accomplish by publishing a "scare story"? Keep in mind, it's the French government that reported over half of all racist attacks in France are against Jews. I appreciate the anecdotal evidence presented ITT but "I haven't seen it" does not amount to "it isn't a problem."

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.

They should be, but "should" doesn't automatically make it so.

Of course not. That is why we should all be concerned about the points raised in the original article.

 Manchu wrote:

squidhills wrote:
Presumably to Israel, which is surrounded by countries where everybody hates them.

In the video, Leon Wieseltier calls this cheap irony. I think I would just call it a cheap shot.

If you mean a cheap shot against Jews in general; it wasn't meant as one.

If you mean a cheap shot against the author and the "point" he is trying to make; then yes, absolutely. And I'd do it again.

The article tries to make the argument that Europe hates all the Jews, when it really looks like France is the only country with a noticeable rise of anti-Semitic hate crimes. And, as any German or Itallian will happily tell you, while France is in Europe, it isn't all of Europe. It proposes a solution that amounts to "move away from a country that hates you to a country that all it's neighboors hate (and regularly attack with fething rockets)" as the only solution, when a better one might be to confront the racism in the country(s) that Jews already live in. Yes, immigrant Muslim populations are showing more and more radicalization among their youth. So address that issue, instead of running away from it (to a part of the world that invented radicalized Muslim youth). Engage with your neighbors, push for action from the government, pull a Palin on Le Penn and make her such a laughingstock that National Front never gets another vote. It's your home; fight for it. You didn't hear the Irish immigrants in the 19th century US saying "people are mean to us and violence against us is commonplace--- let's all run back to Ireland" (ok, a few did... but the overwhelming majority didn't). Instead, they said "feth you, donkey cave! I live here, now! This is my country too!"

Instead of running off to Israel when anti-Semitism starts to rear it's ugly, ugly head, French Jews (and Itallian Jews, and Swiss Jews, and German Jews, and American Jews, and everybody else) need to plant their feet firmly on the ground and fight it out. If you want to live somewhere, you need to be willing to fight for it.

I would highly recommend that you take the time to actually read the article, as it highlights problems from across Europe and does not in any way conflate France with Europe.

The article also does not suggest that Europe's Jews should all move to Israel.

 Manchu wrote:
I would highly recommend that you take the time to actually read the article, as it highlights problems from across Europe and does not in any way conflate France with Europe.

The article also does not suggest that Europe's Jews should all move to Israel.

I'm at work, Manchu. I don't have time to read the whole article. I don't have time to read any article. I have just enough time to post poorly-informed, emotional rants on what I assume things are about because the internet runs on outrage. It's an imperfect world, but I make the most of it.

whywecanthavenicethings.jpg

squidhills wrote:

The article tries to make the argument that Europe hates all the Jews, when it really looks like France is the only country with a noticeable rise of anti-Semitic hate crimes.

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.

As for Poland and Germany....well, there aren't really that many Jews left any more to emigrate.

Id be curious to see stats on which groups are committing these hate crimes against jews in france,

Its the Quakers. They're doing carriage bys all through Europe. Its actually a turf war between the Jewish gangs (the infamous Matza cartel), Quaker wise guys, and Mennonite mobsters.

 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.

If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...

squidhills wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.

If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...

Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

squidhills wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.

If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...

Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA.

Yeah, and Russia also treats handicapped people well. Good one.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The Liberals and Reforms would disagree.

Good for them.

 Ketara wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:

I do not know, but as a French guy whose mother is Jewish, and who knows a bunch of other people with at least Jewish origins, I know no-one who feels threatened or even considered going to live in Israel. But I may be biased as only one of my uncle is a practicing Jew, and all the others are agnostic or atheists as far as I can tell.

That's a fair enough empirical stance to take. It could be that your family is fortunate enough to live in a good area though, as the emigration statistics alone would seem to indicate that this is more than just a scare story.

There was a quote dysfunction here.
Most people from Jewish origin I know (inside or outside of my family ) are academics, so I guess I might be biased. But the thing is, if you do not talk about it, nobody will know you have Jewish origins anyway, so…

I wonder how many "closet Jews" there are, out of fear of persecution.

 Bullockist wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


That said, while I am Jewish, and do believe that a man named Jesus existed and was all about being excellent to one another, there are religious issues with him being the son of god and a direct father to son descendent of David (which is required for the Messiah).

I now return you to your original discussion.

Does this include the female names listed in the lineage list? There are difinitely female names in there , but then again I thought Jews did the female lineage thing.

According to Jewish belief (or tradition forget which), a child's religion is based on his mother. Of course it is also assumed that nobody marries outsdie the faith so every jewish boy marries a jewish girl (even if one of them is a convert).

The issue is two-fold, first according to Jewish belief, the Messiah will be a direct father-to-son descendent. Meaning, if, to get to Jesus you must go through the female lineage, then he cannot be the Messiah. The second is that when the Messiah does come, there are numerous events that are supposed to occur, none of which occurred with Jesus.


I also apologize to anyone who did not realize my comment about Jews selling out their grandmothers was a joke.