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 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 kronk wrote:
I'd rather you just stopped smoking pot and get a fething job.

Also, cut your hair, hippy!

Ill stop smoking if you stop drinking.

The balls in your court Kronk!

This is really the problem with our society's view on drugs - As evidenced by the replies in this thread, many Americans have more of a problem with someone who smokes pot, than with a guy who admits that he gets the shakes if he can't drink.

If any of my employees are that dependent on alcohol I would consider letting them go too. Can't have employees with that bad of performance issues.

How do you know they are not?

How do I know they're not dependent on alcohol?

When I determine its not enough to impede their work. And I'll definitely use a breathalyser to ensure no employees are drunk on the job.

But, that's the thing with actual functioning alcoholics... They won't appear drunk, they won't act drunk, they won't smell drunk and they'll be getting all their work done in a pretty timely manner.


So really, how would you know they are drunk unless you're going above and beyond what most employers are allowed to do? Are you going to put a camera above their workstation to catch them drinking on the job? I seriously doubt you can use a breathalyzer as an "entry control" means... there's no way you could force everyone to line up, blow into the machine and then enter the building/elevator/workspace, etc.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How do I know they're not dependent on alcohol?

When I determine its not enough to impede their work. And I'll definitely use a breathalyser to ensure no employees are drunk on the job.

What do you do, that your employees are OK with you randomly showing up and asking them to blow in a tube?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
But, that's the thing with actual functioning alcoholics... They won't appear drunk, they won't act drunk, they won't smell drunk and they'll be getting all their work done in a pretty timely manner.


So really, how would you know they are drunk unless you're going above and beyond what most employers are allowed to do? Are you going to put a camera above their workstation to catch them drinking on the job? I seriously doubt you can use a breathalyzer as an "entry control" means... there's no way you could force everyone to line up, blow into the machine and then enter the building/elevator/workspace, etc.

If its not effecting their job performance I probably won't catch them. So unless I catch them with booze nothing will happen. If I do, then disciplinary action will be taken.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
But, that's the thing with actual functioning alcoholics... They won't appear drunk, they won't act drunk, they won't smell drunk and they'll be getting all their work done in a pretty timely manner.


So really, how would you know they are drunk unless you're going above and beyond what most employers are allowed to do? Are you going to put a camera above their workstation to catch them drinking on the job? I seriously doubt you can use a breathalyzer as an "entry control" means... there's no way you could force everyone to line up, blow into the machine and then enter the building/elevator/workspace, etc.

If its not effecting their job performance I probably won't catch them. So unless I catch them with booze nothing will happen. If I do, then disciplinary action will be taken.

So, you will do nothing?

 Grey Templar wrote:
How do I know they're not dependent on alcohol?

When I determine its not enough to impede their work. And I'll definitely use a breathalyser to ensure no employees are drunk on the job.

Wander around with a breathalyzer and your employees will bail-at least the good ones. one may pop you in the face first. Pickup driving Americans are know to do that.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
How do I know they're not dependent on alcohol?

When I determine its not enough to impede their work. And I'll definitely use a breathalyser to ensure no employees are drunk on the job.

Wander around with a breathalyzer and your employees will bail-at least the good ones. one may pop you in the face first. Pickup driving Americans are know to do that.

I'm still curious what Grey Templar does for a living, and if these employees are real or hypothetical, because I don't see anybody putting up with that for long.

They are hypothetical, but I would never ever tolerate drinking or being drunk on the job. And I would report any coworkers who were to my boss.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are hypothetical, but I would never ever tolerate drinking or being drunk on the job. And I would report any coworkers who were to my boss.

Sounds good man, let us know how that works out for you in a few years.

FYI I work in a military facility (not going to name the branch or anything) and they serve beer in the bowling alley. When I worked at a different military facility for a different branch they actually had a fully stocked bar in the break room, and would regularly indulge (in moderation mostly) in hard liquor and beer during work hours. This break room was located literally next to my office, as in, if I wanted a drink (which I never did at work...never wanted one) I wouldn't even have to leave my office chair...it was possible to just roll right into the bar area.

When I worked in a M&I lab at a medical school, we would regularly have "beer hour" on Fridays where the PIs would bring in snack plates and cases of beer. This was in a lab where people were working with some seriously funky stuff that you don't want getting loose.

The people I work with are scientists and engineers, and nearly all of them have clearances. Good luck getting them to blow into a tube. They'll likely turn that request right around...

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are hypothetical, but I would never ever tolerate drinking or being drunk on the job. And I would report any coworkers who were to my boss.

If you worked in a teamster shop you wouldn't live long would you.

A British bank would fire you on the spot for such blasphemy.
A French Bank would fine your lack of taste to be dreadfully American and not hire you in the first place.
A Japanese or Mexican company would definitely exclude you from their lunches and dinners.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


The people I work with are scientists and engineers, and nearly all of them have clearances. Good luck getting them to blow into a tube. They'll likely turn that request right around...

I work with the same types of people, all with clearances... and 'hey, blow in this tube' has happened in our company and can happen at any time. We actually have contracts from the government which are drug/alcohol related which require policies for employees working on the projects.

It all 'depends' on your culture, but random drug tests and breathalyzers for suspicion of intoxication is not uncommon or against your rights as an employee in many places. Most times you signed away your rights as terms of employment.

It was hard as we acquired a company from another state which not only had beer keg-orators in the conference rooms, but had a hookah lounge in the office. Talk about culture shock!

If you don't like the terms of your employment, go somewhere else. If you can't go elsewhere, then you suck it up and follow the terms of employment.

They'll just lose employees to companies with less annoying entry requirements. Setting up barriers for people to join that don't have anything to do with job performance just filters more good talent to your competitors who don't put up those blocks.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are hypothetical, but I would never ever tolerate drinking or being drunk on the job. And I would report any coworkers who were to my boss.

Sounds good man, let us know how that works out for you in a few years.

FYI I work in a military facility (not going to name the branch or anything) and they serve beer in the bowling alley. When I worked at a different military facility for a different branch they actually had a fully stocked bar in the break room, and would regularly indulge (in moderation mostly) in hard liquor and beer during work hours. This break room was located literally next to my office, as in, if I wanted a drink (which I never did at work...never wanted one) I wouldn't even have to leave my office chair...it was possible to just roll right into the bar area.

When I worked in a M&I lab at a medical school, we would regularly have "beer hour" on Fridays where the PIs would bring in snack plates and cases of beer. This was in a lab where people were working with some seriously funky stuff that you don't want getting loose.

The people I work with are scientists and engineers, and nearly all of them have clearances. Good luck getting them to blow into a tube. They'll likely turn that request right around...

Well, that environment is pretty dang unprofessional and reflects poorly on its members if you ask me.

Nothing wrong with drinking off the clock, but drinking on the job is extremely unprofessional.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are hypothetical, but I would never ever tolerate drinking or being drunk on the job. And I would report any coworkers who were to my boss.

Sounds good man, let us know how that works out for you in a few years.

FYI I work in a military facility (not going to name the branch or anything) and they serve beer in the bowling alley. When I worked at a different military facility for a different branch they actually had a fully stocked bar in the break room, and would regularly indulge (in moderation mostly) in hard liquor and beer during work hours. This break room was located literally next to my office, as in, if I wanted a drink (which I never did at work...never wanted one) I wouldn't even have to leave my office chair...it was possible to just roll right into the bar area.

When I worked in a M&I lab at a medical school, we would regularly have "beer hour" on Fridays where the PIs would bring in snack plates and cases of beer. This was in a lab where people were working with some seriously funky stuff that you don't want getting loose.

The people I work with are scientists and engineers, and nearly all of them have clearances. Good luck getting them to blow into a tube. They'll likely turn that request right around...

Well, that environment is pretty dang unprofessional and reflects poorly on its members if you ask me.

Nothing wrong with drinking off the clock, but drinking on the job is extremely unprofessional.

You're referring to three separate organizations, two Department of Defense and one medical school-affiliated research group, containing a combined several hundred people, nearly all with PhDs in hard sciences (or at least Masters degrees) and security clearances, who are each easily pulling 6 figures per year. What are your qualifications for judging professionalism exactly?

You also conflated on the job and off the job.

 Frazzled wrote:
DW is presenting a libertarian argument, that if it doesn't impact the job the employee should be free from interference off the job, that the employee is only selling their skilled during the job-else they should be paid more and these agreements made.

No.

The libertarian view would be he is free to work for a company that does not test, and a company is free to announce and enforce their policies. A potential libertarian employee either agrees to the policy and applies/gets hired, or disagrees and does not apply. A libertarian sees accepting employment as accepting the policies/terms of that employment. Libertarians (heck, all reasonably mature adults) understand the conditions under which they are employed and either abide by those conditions or are willing to accept the consequences of refusing to abide by the conditions. If using illegal substances off the work clock is important to you, you either don't work for an employer with a zero tolerance policy, or if you do, you work knowing if/when you get tested and come up hot you will be looking for a new job.

Now, the libertarian also thinks the gov't shouldn't make pot illegal, and should stay out of people's lives in general. But as champions of a free market (not crony capitalism) they accept that employers have the right to set their own policies and employ those willing to abide by them.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are hypothetical, but I would never ever tolerate drinking or being drunk on the job. And I would report any coworkers who were to my boss.

Sounds good man, let us know how that works out for you in a few years.

FYI I work in a military facility (not going to name the branch or anything) and they serve beer in the bowling alley. When I worked at a different military facility for a different branch they actually had a fully stocked bar in the break room, and would regularly indulge (in moderation mostly) in hard liquor and beer during work hours. This break room was located literally next to my office, as in, if I wanted a drink (which I never did at work...never wanted one) I wouldn't even have to leave my office chair...it was possible to just roll right into the bar area.

When I worked in a M&I lab at a medical school, we would regularly have "beer hour" on Fridays where the PIs would bring in snack plates and cases of beer. This was in a lab where people were working with some seriously funky stuff that you don't want getting loose.

The people I work with are scientists and engineers, and nearly all of them have clearances. Good luck getting them to blow into a tube. They'll likely turn that request right around...

Well, that environment is pretty dang unprofessional and reflects poorly on its members if you ask me.

Nothing wrong with drinking off the clock, but drinking on the job is extremely unprofessional.

Every shop that produces code everywhere has people drinking on the job. It's how the internet happens.

If using illegal substances off the work clock is important to you, you either don't work for an employer with a zero tolerance policy, or if you do, you work knowing if/when you get tested and come up hot you will be looking for a new job.

Marijuana isn't an illegal substance in the state where the event happened. It's Colorado, recreational use of marijuana is 100% legal.

So, the better question is, would you fire an employee for drinking on the weekend?

 Psienesis wrote:

Marijuana isn't an illegal substance in the state where the event happened. It's Colorado, recreational use of marijuana is 100% legal.

Doesn't matter, it's a Control Substance by the DEA. It's in the same LEGAL category as heroine or cocaine.

The Feds could charge/fine those Coloradoian's for those recreational pot use. It's just that by policy, the Feds don't even bother (via inherent prosecutorial discretion).

So, the better question is, would you fire an employee for drinking on the weekend?

Flawed premise as alcohol isn't illegal.

Business not only must abide by State Laws and Regulation... but Federal as well.

The Feds could charge/fine those Coloradoian's for those recreational pot use. It's just that by policy, the Feds don't even bother (via inherent prosecutorial discretion).

And by directive of the DOJ, as well as Presidential order, the DEA has been told not to pursue prosecution of marijuana-related crimes in Colorado and Washington state.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are hypothetical, but I would never ever tolerate drinking or being drunk on the job. And I would report any coworkers who were to my boss.

Sounds good man, let us know how that works out for you in a few years.

FYI I work in a military facility (not going to name the branch or anything) and they serve beer in the bowling alley. When I worked at a different military facility for a different branch they actually had a fully stocked bar in the break room, and would regularly indulge (in moderation mostly) in hard liquor and beer during work hours. This break room was located literally next to my office, as in, if I wanted a drink (which I never did at work...never wanted one) I wouldn't even have to leave my office chair...it was possible to just roll right into the bar area.

When I worked in a M&I lab at a medical school, we would regularly have "beer hour" on Fridays where the PIs would bring in snack plates and cases of beer. This was in a lab where people were working with some seriously funky stuff that you don't want getting loose.

The people I work with are scientists and engineers, and nearly all of them have clearances. Good luck getting them to blow into a tube. They'll likely turn that request right around...

Well, that environment is pretty dang unprofessional and reflects poorly on its members if you ask me.

Nothing wrong with drinking off the clock, but drinking on the job is extremely unprofessional.

Hate to break it to you but it's kind of super common. A bunch of guys from my office would have "Bourbon Time" every Friday for a while. Heck, some folks I know have official office beer fridges.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
I don't have this job so I can take drugs. It just so happens that this job does not drug test. But, either way, is it not my decision to do what I want on my own time?

It is your decision.
It is also an employer's decision to terminate employees who use certain substances.

I am from Holland and it is legal there, and my country has collapsed because all the addicts high on weed and not working, oh wait everything goes on like normal.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

This is really the problem with our society's view on drugs - As evidenced by the replies in this thread, many Americans have more of a problem with someone who smokes pot, than with a guy who admits that he gets the shakes if he can't drink.

..Or the guy that comes to work on prozac or xanax.
http://www.drugs.com/sfx/xanax-side-effects.html

and as for reporting someone who drinks on the job? Some people drink and work, I've worked with a few and have no problem with it. Some people come into work baked. If it works for them who cares?
The first rule of school is don't tell the teacher.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 kronk wrote:
I'd rather you just stopped smoking pot and get a fething job.

Also, cut your hair, hippy!

Ill stop smoking if you stop drinking.

The balls in your court Kronk!

This is really the problem with our society's view on drugs - As evidenced by the replies in this thread, many Americans have more of a problem with someone who smokes pot, than with a guy who admits that he gets the shakes if he can't drink.

For the record, that was a joke...

The jocularity does not cover up the severity of your problem though.

 kronk wrote:

For the record, that was a joke...

Clearly, he either hasn't been around long enough, or hasn't taken Kronk 101

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

For the record, that was a joke...

Clearly, he either hasn't been around long enough, or hasn't taken Kronk 101

Kind of hard to tell sometimes! It's a fair question too - an ex girlfriend's father was a "functional" alcoholic. Owned a business, multiple boats, huge house, condos in NC, Cape May, etc. He also polished off almost an entire handle of Smirnoff every night and has been taken to the hospital on multiple occasions for liver failure.

 CptJake wrote:
I couldn't care less if you had a decent paying job or lived under an underpass in a box to be honest. We all have freedom of choice but should never be given freedom from consequences. You accept a decent paying job when you know the employer tests for drugs and choose to do drugs anyway, you earn the consequences of being fired. That does not bother me. And more, since it IS your choice to take that job and ignore your employer's policies, I personally don't feel you should be able to suck any tax dollars in welfare as a result. I'm not a compassionate person when it comes to folks making crap decisions then whining like bitches at the results of those decisions. If the hardest choice you face in life is whether to risk your job so you can get stoned, your life is frankly pretty damned easy.

You say you're not a compassionate person when it comes to people making crap decisions, and neither am I. Personally I think anyone who risks getting caught breaching policy, no matter how stupid the policy, and then is punished when caught gets what they get, that's life. But the difference is that you are stuck looking only at the individual, and haven't looked at the company policy at all.

And it's at the company that this issue actually needs to be looked at. Obviously there's jobs where they must test for drugs for safety reasons, anything involving heavy machinery or transport for instance, but those are far from the only jobs that use drug testing. And so if we start looking at a lot of those other jobs, it's pretty hard to see anything other than a really stupid policy that spends company resources and increases turnover without achieving anything at all.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Business not only must abide by State Laws and Regulation... but Federal as well.

Someone who uses of marijuana may breach Federal law, but that doesn't mean the company they work for has any legal obligation to test people to see if they might have used in the last 30 days.

I mean, we don't have managers pop around to each employee's house and look around to make sure they haven't been engaged in any theft in the last 30 days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nothing wrong with drinking off the clock, but drinking on the job is extremely unprofessional.

I'm guessing you've never worked in marketing. You'd get fired from there if you don't drink.

End of the day, it depends what your profession is, what industry, what company. Plenty of places drinks over a business lunch are an essential part of the job. Other jobs the hours are weird enough that a drink becomes entirely reasonable – I worked a job where the office would close at 5:00, but the meeting with the governing board didn’t happen until 7:00, so we’d have a bite to eat and a drink and talk about whatever issues were going to come up in the meeting.