Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

RULE #1 at ALL TIMES everyone - thanks!

 Alpharius wrote:
RULE #1 at ALL TIMES everyone - thanks!

Is there a rule that tells people to read the responses to the thread before continuing to post? I mean...people keep telling him to play at a different store, but the OP has said multiple times that the store in question is the only FLGS around.

Rhetorical question, obviously...

Jambles65302874ec248c3e02e8e27bd70b99bdb2b7a.jpg wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.

So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.

There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it

Spoken like a true American!

That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."

First off, that was very insulting for no reason.

Second off as a soldier I know exactly what it means to fight for something, I Iost the full use of one of my legs doing exactly that and ask that you do not belittle the legacy of those who have died doing so as well.

Third, what does my nationality have to do with anything? I understand that people do not like my country and think that many people that share the American nationality extremely arrogant, but I am am not such a person I do what I can to change things as I can and make life better for all.

I've been rather polite in this whole topic and have only sought to inform Redledger about the reasons behind the rule which basically boils down to :
"Long time customer violated store owners trust, who knows how many times and drove away other customers. Store owner banned said player and did the only thing he knew of to prevent a repeat incident from ever happening short of checking everyone's codex himself."
If you have a problem.with that then that's fine, I'm not going to personally attack you over it. Your money, your hobby, your choice.

 Ir0njack wrote:

Jambles65302874ec248c3e02e8e27bd70b99bdb2b7a.jpg wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.

So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.

There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it

Spoken like a true American!

That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."

First off, that was very insulting for no reason.

Second off as a soldier I know exactly what it means to fight for something, I Iost the full use of one of my legs doing exactly that and ask that you do not belittle the legacy of those who have died doing so as well.

Third, what does my nationality have to do with anything? I understand that people do not like my country and think that many people that share the American nationality extremely arrogant, but I am am not such a person I do what I can to change things as I can and make life better for all.

I've been rather polite in this whole topic and have only sought to inform Redledger about the reasons behind the rule which basically boils down to :
"Long time customer violated store owners trust, who knows how many times and drove away other customers. Store owner banned said player and did the only thing he knew of to prevent a repeat incident from ever happening short of checking everyone's codex himself."
If you have a problem.with that then that's fine, I'm not going to personally attack you over it. Your money, your hobby, your choice.

Yea, this kind of devolved quite quickly, and was not my intent. However, I would like to invite you to my occasional garage game. Helcult will be in full effect! lol.

I would be delighted, hit me up in a pm and we can get something going. I've got some IG, mostly footguard and I'm working on some admech and cobbling together some BT from my hoard of bits.

 Ir0njack wrote:

Jambles65302874ec248c3e02e8e27bd70b99bdb2b7a.jpg wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:

Spoken like a true American!

That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."

First off, that was very insulting for no reason.

Second off as a soldier I know exactly what it means to fight for something, I Iost the full use of one of my legs doing exactly that and ask that you do not belittle the legacy of those who have died doing so as well.

Third, what does my nationality have to do with anything? I understand that people do not like my country and think that many people that share the American nationality extremely arrogant, but I am am not such a person I do what I can to change things as I can and make life better for all.

I've been rather polite in this whole topic and have only sought to inform Redledger about the reasons behind the rule which basically boils down to :
"Long time customer violated store owners trust, who knows how many times and drove away other customers. Store owner banned said player and did the only thing he knew of to prevent a repeat incident from ever happening short of checking everyone's codex himself."
If you have a problem.with that then that's fine, I'm not going to personally attack you over it. Your money, your hobby, your choice.

Wasn't trying to be personally insulting. Just a stupid American politics joke that came out too harshly. My apologies.

A store like this was the last straw for me. I moved and played a tournament level army of SoB/IG/Inquisition. At the time in 6E I was doing well, and went undefeated in a tournament prior to moving (but lost best general due to bull crap, another reason I left 40k...). The store had house rules and comp, okay cool. I played one event and then was told my list is now illegal as everything is two sources only. Then I was told I could no longer run three exorcist tanks. Even though the store allowed white scar spam and Eldar/DE allies lists (which were pet armies of the store comp writers...). Lastly, because some kid photoshopped his electronic codex to cheat, all digital sources were banned. So no more Sister and Inquisition.

After that two to three month mess, near the end of 6E, I sold it all off. It just magnified everything wrong with 40k. I got one last game in with my Grey Knights (my only army I still have due to their unique attention to detail) and then quit for good.

Honestly, OP, if you want a war gaming scene closer to MTG, where the rules for competitive tournament play are rock solid, play Warmachine. I've since switched bought four armies and the rules are always the same everywhere. Much better balanced and less whiny house rules for no arbitrary reason. It's still possible, as people are people. However, if you're looking for a game that's also hobby versus a hobby that's also a game, don't play 40k. It sucks competitively for what you've experienced.

I remember store owners on this website doing this in 6th edition after GW released direct only / digital download data slates. I think the controversy started with that flyer one.

 TheKbob wrote:
A store like this was the last straw for me. I moved and played a tournament level army of SoB/IG/Inquisition. At the time in 6E I was doing well, and went undefeated in a tournament prior to moving (but lost best general due to bull crap, another reason I left 40k...). The store had house rules and comp, okay cool. I played one event and then was told my list is now illegal as everything is two sources only. Then I was told I could no longer run three exorcist tanks. Even though the store allowed white scar spam and Eldar/DE allies lists (which were pet armies of the store comp writers...). Lastly, because some kid photoshopped his electronic codex to cheat, all digital sources were banned. So no more Sister and Inquisition.

After that two to three month mess, near the end of 6E, I sold it all off. It just magnified everything wrong with 40k. I got one last game in with my Grey Knights (my only army I still have due to their unique attention to detail) and then quit for good.

Honestly, OP, if you want a war gaming scene closer to MTG, where the rules for competitive tournament play are rock solid, play Warmachine. I've since switched bought four armies and the rules are always the same everywhere. Much better balanced and less whiny house rules for no arbitrary reason. It's still possible, as people are people. However, if you're looking for a game that's also hobby versus a hobby that's also a game, don't play 40k. It sucks competitively for what you've experienced.

That sucks. I play a straight up Sisters' army on occasion. They used to be my primary army, but they got boring to play since they are pretty much one style of list. If that happened to me, I would have told off the store owner and said I was done a customer. I still play, but I tend to collect hard mode armies by accident. Raven Guard, Dark Angels, and Sisters.

 redleger wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Question to the OP: Is this digital ban only for the tournaments at the store, or is it a wide-spread ban that the owner expects to encompass all games that take place there? It is possible that the formal will lead to the latter, but just wondering how far this guy's personal feelings are handcuffing his player population.

I usually only go in there to play in tournaments, but I do know the Ban on Codex's is store wide. I am sure if I was playing on a casual Sunday and ran a Helcult, he would be none the wiser but his store, his rules so I don't even attempt it. The main point of this post was to get a consensus on whether this was normal or not, as this is my first time delving into mini wargaming, as I played MTG prior. I will engage him again on the subject but I am pretty sure he is rock solid in his point of view.

I'd just take my money elsewhere...








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
No you Can check them if you ask to see there Black library account as its tied to it.

The exception being I pad type things which should also have purchase histories.

ITs really easy to check if some one had downloaded something or purchased it.

ITs about how intrusive you want to get.

Then again just asking to see it shouldnt cause uproar from some one that bought the thing anyway.

yeah, the rules say one has to show the rules, not show your account gistory. Aside for tax police, I don't think there are many people that can force others to show their history and even they need a warrent for it. Unless it is a matter of national security or something.

How does that affect them at all?

Should we also disclose which miniatures we bought on ebay or traded from friends or assembled from extra bitz in excess of the amount of models advertised on a kit's box?

And should those things thereby be barred from use?

Well here it is more or less it. If a shop doesn't sell it, it won't let people use it. If it takes money away from them, because let say your buying inifnity and they don't sell it, they wont accept people playing or using the models. And it does affect them, each codex bought in digital form is one codex less bought from the store and if they are unable to check which one is the original and which one is a copy, then one digital sm codex could turn in to many unsold sm books.
As for ebay buying models goes, if the store owner suddenly sees someone with a 1500pts army you never used, they won't like it. They won't, probably , kick you out of the store, unless the models are recasts, but it may be harder to get a table to play or the time table to play may put you at strange hours or at times when you can play.

Let's be honest many shop owners are short-sighted and have a chip on their shoulder.

The self-righteous "I am God here" routine is counterproductive to growing a gaming community and hurts sales in the long run.

Example: you don't sell infinity so we can't play it in your store?

Think about how silly that is. How will you ever sell it without running some demos of exposing people to it? Think of my games as free demos I'm running for you.

I've seen people ask store owners to special order games/models for them based on seeing Something new played in front of them.
I've seen whole scenes develop for a game in a store with a genesis of someone bringing it in and showing it to others.

New games also result in more associated sales: paints, tools, etc.

And I've never gone to a game night and not purchased things myself. So I may be playing infinity but I am going to buy stuff. If you ban my game I'll go elsewhere or play it at home. And if I can't play in your store I'm no longer buying from you, I'm going straight to the Internet.

Turn me away and you lose my sales and the potential sales I'll possibly help generate for you from others who see our game.

Does he not want to increase sales?

He will most likely be closed in the next 3-5 years with his current mentality if he needs gaming sales to stay afloat...

My store does not allow digital anything. To them they say they are too easy to modify and cheat. He tells a story where one guy was caught cheating with one during a tournament; TO was called and informed. TO checks the codex, and apparently ON THE SPOT changes it. And modifies the point values. I call BS and on the story and tell him that I will pay him 50$ right there if he is able to back up his claims and modify my E codex on my tablet right from the ereader. He didn't take me up on the offer.
His 2nd reason is that to him, buying an E-codex is the same as flipping off the store owner. This honestly was a factor to me selling off my sisters of battle. Because why play an army that you can't play? :(

 conker249 wrote:
My store does not allow digital anything. To them they say they are too easy to modify and cheat. He tells a story where one guy was caught cheating with one during a tournament; TO was called and informed. TO checks the codex, and apparently ON THE SPOT changes it. And modifies the point values. I call BS and on the story and tell him that I will pay him 50$ right there if he is able to back up his claims and modify my E codex on my tablet right from the ereader. He didn't take me up on the offer.
His 2nd reason is that to him, buying an E-codex is the same as flipping off the store owner. This honestly was a factor to me selling off my sisters of battle. Because why play an army that you can't play? :(

Though possibly not practical for you. you should of looked for a new game store in the area
Supporting another store would of been better if you didn't like his polices.

Also that's terrible that you sold off your sisters.


Such rare

Much sad.

At the time it was only that store. Closest otherwise is 2 hours. There is a new place to play now. Very sad I chose to sell the sisters. I told myself I will sell every army I have to fund a sisters army if they ever get a reboot like the dark elder did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do play at both flgs now. I have other armies. Just sisters are so unique I felt happy every time I played with them.

Not allowing dataslates means 1/3rd the standard model kits for Nids cannot be played. It's insane. Your FLGS is nuts.

I should add to my complaints about E Codex's and data slate for my FLGS that I enjoy playing there. There are a few dakka members that play there as well that are great to play against.

 conker249 wrote:
I should add to my complaints about E Codex's and data slate for my FLGS that I enjoy playing there. There are a few dakka members that play there as well that are great to play against.

Why do you defend your abuser? They essentially bullied you into selling your favorite army and then you turn around and say you enjoy playing there?

I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.

It's just ONE part of the hobby. You could be his best customer, buying all sorts of painting and modelling supplies, and model kits from them.

But they get uppity over you buying ONE thing from another source?

No, that's unreasonable, and frankly they need covering in jam and leaving to the ants.






Ok, maybe that's a little extreme.

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.

It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.

It's really a load of nonsense. The argument is essentially "you could have purchased that item through the FLGS."

Well, in a certain sense, that's true (for some codices/supplements), but you really cannot purchase a digital download from an FLGS. They can only stock the physical copies. The digital versions of those items are only sold by the Black Library. If I had a tablet, I would certainly only purchase digital rules because it's more convenient for me to transport.

Any store owner taking issue with this could either a) shove it or b) allow me to purchase 2 codices for the price of 1 and store the second in a locker in his store.

I understand the OP's problem of not having any other store in the area. Besides my FLGS, the nearest store is 4 hours drive and an international border away (not including time spent in passport control and exchanging currency). Talking to the store owner and explaining the situation might be helpful if they are understanding.

For the record, I pretty much stopped going to the store that did that partly because they don't have a convenient Warmachine night I can attend and partly because of the 40k nonsense. The current stores I attend know that Warmachine players don't buy rules as they either come with models or we use War Room, but yet we still get full support... and I continue to buy models from them as the desire arises (and I really should stop letting that desire arise, judging by my "to-build" pile).

Part of the problem is the store, I'd also say part of the problem is the game. I can assure you that if some store tried to crack down on Warmachine players for using war room, that'd go over like a lead balloon. I'd say if many people feel the same about the digital nonsense, as a player base, then vote together with your feet.

Does your FLGS allowed at least the SoB digital codex? since it does not exist in hard version.

 Xenophon00 wrote:
Does your FLGS allowed at least the SoB digital codex? since it does not exist in hard version.

Mine didn't for organized play. Also, I believe zero FW was allowed (or greatly restricted), also because the store didn't sell it. And also because a ton of FW these days is more Forgery World.

I feel like this kind of store is soon going to start knifing edges off the paint and biting your soldiers to make sure you've bought the models in their store.

(that was a clever reference to the archetype of a greedy merchant biting your gold coin, or chipping it, to make sure you haven't just coated lead in a thin cover of gold, because that's what he would do.)

 Melissia wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.

It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.

If you play in a store, you should buy from the store. I've always believed and practiced that.

However, some dataslates are digital only, like Cypher, Bel-Akor, and the like. Further, some Codecies are digital only, like Inquisition and Sisters of Battle. A store that bans those, when you can't buy them from the store, just doesn't make sense.

This is why my small group (usually 2-4 guys) built our own 4'x8' tables in our basements. We get together and play fluffy, casual games.

We used to play in stores when we were younger (in our 20's), it's also easier to play this way since we all have kids now and are in our 30's.

No weird store rules, no power gamers, just fun!

 kronk wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.

It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.

If you play in a store, you should buy from the store. I've always believed and practiced that.

However, some dataslates are digital only, like Cypher, Bel-Akor, and the like. Further, some Codecies are digital only, like Inquisition and Sisters of Battle. A store that bans those, when you can't buy them from the store, just doesn't make sense.

Of course it's good to support your local store and to give business to the one you play in. It doesn't mean it's ok for them to insist you only play with models and rules bought IN their store. Frankly it's greedy and unreasonable.

It would be like a golf course banning any clubs or attire that weren't available in the club shop.

Wow. All this makes me so happy that my FLGS owner is a grat guy. I once asked him what he thought about people using third party minatures and other such things and he said "As long as they have fun, good for them." And not only is FW allowed, it is encouraged. The owner even makes occasional FW orders for people to pick up at his store, as many customers are collage kids who live in the dorms. Makes things easy and fun for everyone. We also have a thriving Pathfinder Society group that plays every other week, and he never pressures anyone to buy anything from him, or tells them they can't use digital books. I really think this is how all stores should be ran, wether it is a GW store, or a FLGS. It creates an atmosphere of good will and good sportsnamship. Not to mention, if you spend enough time playing there you are likely to spend money. I even run my home game of Pathfinder there and he is always happy to let us use a room.

My FLGS will do forge world orders, but adds 10% to the total cost(after you already pay the 10% for the shipping) So no one orders from forge world there. I make the store sound horrible, but these complaints bug me and are related to the topic.

 conker249 wrote:
My FLGS will do forge world orders, but adds 10% to the total cost(after you already pay the 10% for the shipping)

Why would the store owner think that this is a good idea? The only reason to do a FW order through a store is to combine a bunch of smaller orders and reach the free shipping threshold. If you're paying the store 10% for their "service" you aren't saving money. I'm glad that nobody falls for this scam, but WTF is the store owner thinking?