Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses

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**Kilkrazy**

My point is that the licence clerk is not a minister of religion and when issuing a licence is performing a legal office not a religious one.

For her to refuse to issue licences to gay people is similar to a policeman who happens to be Islamic refusing to arrest someone drunk and disorderly, because his religion forbids alcohol.

**dusara217**

Smacks wrote:
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
kronk wrote:

Then quit. Do your job or quit.

Agreed. I don't understand how the issue can be any more complex than that.
I actually disagree. Even though I agree she is being an asshat. Forcing someone to choose between their job and their faith is often considered discrimination. For example, Sikhs and Muslims are often exempt from beard and hat regulations which would conflict with their faith. I don't think it would be fair to just disregard their beliefs by saying "If you don't want to shave, don't do the job".

However, I don't think religion can be used as a catch-all "do whatever the hell you want", especially when that means discriminating against others.

I think she has a case, I don't think it's a very good case. It would be much stronger if she could propose a satisfactory solution that would allow her to do her job, better than just "no one can get married anymore". Hopefully, it will be decided that she is not being discriminated against, at which point, I think it would be fair to say "do the job, or get out".

I think that I like the LDS approach to this: "It's all good, it's not like the marriage will matter after you die, anyways"

**d-usa**

This seems somewhat related:

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Texas-Gay-Couple-Settles-Suit-Over-Marriage-License-Denial-322110192.html

**Relapse**

dusara217 wrote:
Smacks wrote:
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
kronk wrote:

Then quit. Do your job or quit.

Agreed. I don't understand how the issue can be any more complex than that.
I actually disagree. Even though I agree she is being an asshat. Forcing someone to choose between their job and their faith is often considered discrimination. For example, Sikhs and Muslims are often exempt from beard and hat regulations which would conflict with their faith. I don't think it would be fair to just disregard their beliefs by saying "If you don't want to shave, don't do the job".

However, I don't think religion can be used as a catch-all "do whatever the hell you want", especially when that means discriminating against others.

I think she has a case, I don't think it's a very good case. It would be much stronger if she could propose a satisfactory solution that would allow her to do her job, better than just "no one can get married anymore". Hopefully, it will be decided that she is not being discriminated against, at which point, I think it would be fair to say "do the job, or get out".

I think that I like the LDS approach to this: "It's all good, it's not like the marriage will matter after you die, anyways"

p

Say what?

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

LDS apparently believe that marriages end at death...

unless they are 'sealed'

and such sealing ceremonies can be performed for dead ancestors (by proxy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_(Mormonism)

(and I'm sure I've got some of this wrong, and suspect the wiki entry is probably a bit suspect too, but gives the general idea anyway)

**Ensis Ferrae**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
LDS apparently believe that marriages end at death...

That is basically EVERY Western religious background right there... It's even in the vows... "Til death do us part"

**Alpharius**

There's a topic here - find it, fast.

**sebster**

Smacks wrote:
I actually disagree. Even though I agree she is being an asshat. Forcing someone to choose between their job and their faith is often considered discrimination. For example, Sikhs and Muslims are often exempt from beard and hat regulations which would conflict with their faith. I don't think it would be fair to just disregard their beliefs by saying "If you don't want to shave, don't do the job".

I think it depends more than anything on how much that particular requirement is key to the job. Policeman may be barred from having beards so they look neat and professional, but allowing some officers beards as a religious exemption doesn’t actually prevent them doing their job.

This is more like a policeman who says it’s against his religion to arrest people for dealing drugs. Even if it is a genuinely held religious belief, it is often a basic reality that a core part of the job and there comes a point where you can’t make a sensible exception.

I think she has a case, I don't think it's a very good case. It would be much stronger if she could propose a satisfactory solution that would allow her to do her job, better than just "no one can get married anymore". Hopefully, it will be decided that she is not being discriminated against, at which point, I think it would be fair to say "do the job, or get out".

Yeah. In one of the other threads I suggested that if the office was big enough to have multiple clerks handling marriage, then the clerk opposed to gay marriage could simply redirect gay couples to the other clerk – then you’d have a solution where the office grants marriage licenses to everyone who wants them, while the lady gets her religious freedom and her job.

But if such a compromise isn’t possible, or if the people involved aren’t interested in workable compromises and are instead just trying to use this to cause trouble, like the ‘no marriages for anyone’ nonsense, then they probably need to go.

**Relapse**

sebster wrote:
Smacks wrote:
I actually disagree. Even though I agree she is being an asshat. Forcing someone to choose between their job and their faith is often considered discrimination. For example, Sikhs and Muslims are often exempt from beard and hat regulations which would conflict with their faith. I don't think it would be fair to just disregard their beliefs by saying "If you don't want to shave, don't do the job".

I think it depends more than anything on how much that particular requirement is key to the job. Policeman may be barred from having beards so they look neat and professional, but allowing some officers beards as a religious exemption doesn’t actually prevent them doing their job.

This is more like a policeman who says it’s against his religion to arrest people for dealing drugs. Even if it is a genuinely held religious belief, it is often a basic reality that a core part of the job and there comes a point where you can’t make a sensible exception.

I think she has a case, I don't think it's a very good case. It would be much stronger if she could propose a satisfactory solution that would allow her to do her job, better than just "no one can get married anymore". Hopefully, it will be decided that she is not being discriminated against, at which point, I think it would be fair to say "do the job, or get out".

Yeah. In one of the other threads I suggested that if the office was big enough to have multiple clerks handling marriage, then the clerk opposed to gay marriage could simply redirect gay couples to the other clerk – then you’d have a solution where the office grants marriage licenses to everyone who wants them, while the lady gets her religious freedom and her job.

But if such a compromise isn’t possible, or if the people involved aren’t interested in workable compromises and are instead just trying to use this to cause trouble, like the ‘no marriages for anyone’ nonsense, then they probably need to go.

I couldn't have said it better. There must be some kind of interstellar alighnment happening because I find my self agreeing with you a lot more these days over the course of several threads.

**MrMoustaffa**

As a Kentuckian who used to live maybe an hour from Morehead, I'm both ashamed of this and not surprised in the slightest. This attitude usually only prevails in the more rural areas, but it's really surprising since Morehead is a college town (and a very liberal one)

I remember when the ruling came through, a lot of people I knew were extremely upset, even friends and family who are otherwise kind and friendly people. People are very stubborn about their beliefs and I expect to see the southeast try to fight this for years, at least until a new generation gets into all these clerk jobs.

**Ouze**

In what I imagine is a surprise to absolutely no one in the country, Kim Davis / Rowan County Clerk's Office of Kentucky has lost her request for stay and has been ordered to issue licenses. In part:

The request for a stay pending appeal relates solely to an injunction against Davis in her official capacity. The injunction operates not against Davis personally, but against the holder of her office of Rowan County Clerk. In light of the binding holding of Obergefell, it cannot be defensibly argued that the holder of the Rowan County Clerk’s office, apart from who personally
occupies that office, may decline to act in conformity with the United States Constitution as interpreted by a dispositive holding of the United States Supreme Court. There is thus little or no likelihood that the Clerk in her official capacity will prevail on appeal.

Presumably the next steps are being found in contempt, a GoFundMe, and then Fox News Channel appearances.

**LeCacty**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
djones520 wrote:
Quit the job. When you are a government employee, you don't have the right to fall back on your beliefs as a guide. It's that damn simple.

Now, at the same time, the recent court ruling that a private bakery can be forced to bake cakes for homosexual weddings, even if they don't want to, is completely bogus in my eyes.

"Interracial Marriages are against my religion."

Whenever theres an issue like this I explain it with different variables. For gay marraige this is my go-to. If something sounds dumb with different variables it likely is. Give it a while and people (hopefully) wont be bigoted donkey-caves. But it is Kentucky...

**Spetulhu**

LeCacty wrote:
Give it a while and people (hopefully) wont be bigoted donkey-caves. But it is Kentucky...

It's more a question of age and upbringing, I suppose. My dear mother was born in the 40s and as kind as she usually is she had some difficulty accepting a gay man standing as presidential candidate (he actually got to round two). "Better go vote for the other guy, we can't have one of those as President".

**Ouze**

.... and she is still refusing to issue them.

I'm pretty sure this woman is going to see the inside of a cell, and soon, for contempt.

**streamdragon**

She needs to be fired. Or I guess impeached, since she's elected. Either way, she needs to be removed from a job she clearly has no intention of doing, all while she sits on her bigoted backside on the taxpayer dime.

**Kilkrazy**

Wasn't there something about a $44,000 fine? Surely the county government is not going to enjoy paying that.

**WrentheFaceless**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Wasn't there something about a $44,000 fine? Surely the county government is not going to enjoy paying that.

The county shouldnt, it should be her herself

**DarkTraveler777**

This is fun.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/this-kentucky-clerk-vows-to-die-for-the-right-to-oppose-gay-marriage_55de1264e4b0a40aa3ad3a78?kvcommref=mostpopular

A Kentucky county clerk who has been outspoken in his opposition to marriage equality now says he'll "die" fighting to keep same-sex couples from tying the knot.

Casey County Clerk Casey Davis has reportedly refused to issue marriage licenses to both heterosexual and same-sex couples in protest of the Supreme Court's June 26 ruling on marriage equality. In an Aug. 24 interview on West Virginia’s The Tom Roten Morning Show, Davis vowed to continue to defy the Supreme Court even if it costs him his life, Right Wing Watch reports.

"It’s a war on Christianity," he told Roten. “There is a travesty taking place with that Supreme Court ruling [that] was completely unconstitutional, completely unconstitutional."

"Our law says ‘one man and one woman,’ and that is what I held my hand up and took an oath to and that is what I expected," he continued. "If it takes my life, I will die ... because I believe I owe that to the people that fought so I can have the freedom that I have, I owe that to them today, and you do, we all do."

He then added, "They fought and died so we could have this freedom, and I’m going to fight and die for my kids and your kids can keep it.”

Previously, Davis had asked Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear to call for a special session of the state legislature so it can pass a new law allowing couples to purchase marriage licenses online in a process similar to obtaining a hunting or fishing license.

In July, Davis told The Lexington Herald-Leader that he had, in fact, met with Beshear, but was told to do his job or resign.

Davis is one of two Kentucky clerks who have refused to issue marriage licenses to both same-sex and opposite-sex couples since same-sex marriage was legalized nationwide. The other, Kim Davis (no relation) of Rowan County, is currently being sued by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of two gay couples and two heterosexual couples for denying them marriage licenses.

Seems a reasonable approach to take.

**Ensis Ferrae**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Previously, Davis had asked Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear to call for a special session of the state legislature so it can pass a new law allowing couples to purchase marriage licenses online in a process similar to obtaining a hunting or fishing license.

Yeah, because that can't be abused one bit

**WrentheFaceless**

Man need to get me a cushy government job, dont have to do my job and cant get fired for it

**streamdragon**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
Man need to get me a cushy government job, dont have to do my job and cant get fired for it

Just have to win a popularity contest.

**d-usa**

streamdragon wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Man need to get me a cushy government job, dont have to do my job and cant get fired for it

Just have to win a popularity contest.

So like most promotions if you already have a government job

**streamdragon**

d-usa wrote:
streamdragon wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Man need to get me a cushy government job, dont have to do my job and cant get fired for it

Just have to win a popularity contest.

So like most promotions if you already have a government job

I'd say getting hired for any job is part popularity contest.

The promotions are automatic though!

**Frazzled**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
This is fun.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/this-kentucky-clerk-vows-to-die-for-the-right-to-oppose-gay-marriage_55de1264e4b0a40aa3ad3a78?kvcommref=mostpopular

A Kentucky county clerk who has been outspoken in his opposition to marriage equality now says he'll "die" fighting to keep same-sex couples from tying the knot.

Casey County Clerk Casey Davis has reportedly refused to issue marriage licenses to both heterosexual and same-sex couples in protest of the Supreme Court's June 26 ruling on marriage equality. In an Aug. 24 interview on West Virginia’s The Tom Roten Morning Show, Davis vowed to continue to defy the Supreme Court even if it costs him his life, Right Wing Watch reports.

"It’s a war on Christianity," he told Roten. “There is a travesty taking place with that Supreme Court ruling [that] was completely unconstitutional, completely unconstitutional."

"Our law says ‘one man and one woman,’ and that is what I held my hand up and took an oath to and that is what I expected," he continued. "If it takes my life, I will die ... because I believe I owe that to the people that fought so I can have the freedom that I have, I owe that to them today, and you do, we all do."

He then added, "They fought and died so we could have this freedom, and I’m going to fight and die for my kids and your kids can keep it.”

Previously, Davis had asked Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear to call for a special session of the state legislature so it can pass a new law allowing couples to purchase marriage licenses online in a process similar to obtaining a hunting or fishing license.

In July, Davis told The Lexington Herald-Leader that he had, in fact, met with Beshear, but was told to do his job or resign.

Davis is one of two Kentucky clerks who have refused to issue marriage licenses to both same-sex and opposite-sex couples since same-sex marriage was legalized nationwide. The other, Kim Davis (no relation) of Rowan County, is currently being sued by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of two gay couples and two heterosexual couples for denying them marriage licenses.

Seems a reasonable approach to take.

Oblige him.

**Psienesis**

Casey Davis certainly lives in a very different reality from the rest of us. I mean, I've done an awful lot of LSD in my life but, even then, I've never been trippin' *that* hard.

**reds8n**

Ouze wrote:
.... and she is still refusing to issue them.

I'm pretty sure this woman is going to see the inside of a cell, and soon, for contempt.

so she has or hasn't been divorced 3 times and is on her 4th marriage ?

**sebster**

Relapse wrote:
I couldn't have said it better. There must be some kind of interstellar alighnment happening because I find my self agreeing with you a lot more these days over the course of several threads.

Come to the dark side...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
This is fun.

A Kentucky county clerk who has been outspoken in his opposition to marriage equality now says he'll "die" fighting to keep same-sex couples from tying the knot.

Casey County Clerk Casey Davis has reportedly refused to issue marriage licenses to both heterosexual and same-sex couples in protest of the Supreme Court's June 26 ruling on marriage equality. In an Aug. 24 interview on West Virginia’s The Tom Roten Morning Show, Davis vowed to continue to defy the Supreme Court even if it costs him his life, Right Wing Watch reports.

"It’s a war on Christianity," he told Roten. “There is a travesty taking place with that Supreme Court ruling [that] was completely unconstitutional, completely unconstitutional."

"Our law says ‘one man and one woman,’ and that is what I held my hand up and took an oath to and that is what I expected," he continued. "If it takes my life, I will die ... because I believe I owe that to the people that fought so I can have the freedom that I have, I owe that to them today, and you do, we all do."

He then added, "They fought and died so we could have this freedom, and I’m going to fight and die for my kids and your kids can keep it.”

For a certain kind of lunatic, being oppressed, and even better being a martyr, can be way more important than boring stuff like leading a decent life or being a constructive member of society. That nonsense is annoying most of the time, but completely awesome when someone starts talking about dying for their cause when absolutely no-one even thought of trying to kill them.

**Ensis Ferrae**

sebster wrote:

For a certain kind of lunatic, being oppressed, and even better being a martyr, can be way more important than boring stuff like leading a decent life or being a constructive member of society. That nonsense is annoying most of the time, but completely awesome when someone starts talking about dying for their cause when absolutely no-one even thought of trying to kill them.

Hehe.... I'm trying to picture a group of extremely militant homosexuals... I keep coming up with images of them breaking into this guy's house and making it absolutely sparkle with how fabulous it looks!

**Vash108**

They should be fired, if they keep fining the courthouse it is just tax payer dollars being wasted. She got hired to do one job and she won't do it.

The sanctity of marriage from a woman who has been divorced 3 times was it?

**Polonius**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
sebster wrote:

For a certain kind of lunatic, being oppressed, and even better being a martyr, can be way more important than boring stuff like leading a decent life or being a constructive member of society. That nonsense is annoying most of the time, but completely awesome when someone starts talking about dying for their cause when absolutely no-one even thought of trying to kill them.

Hehe.... I'm trying to picture a group of extremely militant homosexuals... I keep coming up with images of them breaking into this guy's house and making it absolutely sparkle with how fabulous it looks!

While I hesitate to trade too much in stereotypes, keep in mind that not all homosexuals are men, and not all male homosexuals are femme. There are plenty of bears, leather daddies, and "butch" lesbians to cause whatever type of ruckus you have in mind.