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 Grey Templar wrote:
The more time we have between now and when that happens is time we can find a solution to this problem.

I vote we Star Trek this gak. Preferably by skipping the whole eugenics wars bit and the need for Gabriel Bell

 Grey Templar wrote:
All I am saying is we shouldn't be taking unnecessary actions which only hasten the arrival of this approaching problem. Hiking minimum wage does nothing to help the working poor(as the costs of what they buy go up), directly harms everyone who doesn't get a wage increase but still have to pay the increased prices it causes, and it makes automation arrive that much sooner.

The more time we have between now and when that happens is time we can find a solution to this problem. Hastening its arrival is just asking for total economic collapse.

The only alternative to raising wages to meet rising costs of living is to lower the cost of living. You can talk about personal responsibility and thrifty spending all you want, but the reality is that, again, inflation has far outstripped wages and the problem is only going to get worse as increasing population and education standards increases competition for jobs while automation decreases the net availability of said jobs.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hiking minimum wage does nothing to help the working poor(as the costs of what they buy go up), directly harms everyone who doesn't get a wage increase but still have to pay the increased prices it causes, and it makes automation arrive that much sooner.

That's disingenuous. Increasing the minimum wage very well might help the working poor, as it is entirely possible for the increase in wages to outstrip any increase in the cost of living. Further, if you're going to argue that an increase in minimum wage necessarily causes prices to rise (it doesn't) you pretty much have to argue that a higher minimum wage leads to higher wages in general, negating your second point.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The more time we have between now and when that happens is time we can find a solution to this problem. Hastening its arrival is just asking for total economic collapse.

Here's a solution: don't allow a small amount of people to own so much stuff. The right-wing is quick to write off stuff like cellphones as "luxuries" that the unwashed poor really don't "need", so why is it that the people with enough money to potentially destabilize the economy "need" a private jet, or a luxury yacht? There's a diminishing return on the utility of money, after all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
So you are saying that having most of workforce be unemployed is better than them at least having some source of income? How does that even make sense to you?

So the choice is between being poor and out of work, or poor and exploited? While that sounds like just the kind of bright future the right wing elite has in mind for everyone, neither are desirable enough to care which is "better".

 Grey Templar wrote:
The gap between Rich and Poor doesn't really mean anything, unless you believe in the outdated Mercantilism view that "wealth" is a finite thing and there is only so much to go around.

A lot of resources (wealth) are demonstrably finite. Most notably land.

And the gap between rich and poor is actually one of the strongest indicators of other problems in a society, such as: crime, poverty, unemployment, exploitation, failing infrastructure, corruption etc... To say it doesn't mean anything, while simultaneously suggesting that people should live in poverty so as to be more appealing to (rich) employers than machines are, reveals the depth and breadth of your political syllabus.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The more time we have between now and when that happens is time we can find a solution to this problem. Hastening its arrival is just asking for total economic collapse.

Here's a solution: don't allow a small amount of people to own so much stuff. The right-wing is quick to write off stuff like cellphones as "luxuries" that the unwashed poor really don't "need", so why is it that the people with enough money to potentially destabilize the economy "need" a private jet, or a luxury yacht? There's a diminishing return on the utility of money, after all.

Hear, hear.

 LordofHats wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
In an environment where productivity is rising faster than demand can keep up due to advancements in technology and cheap out-sourced labor, "job creation" as the holy grail for social prosperity is quickly ceasing to be viable. Something like 50% of jobs are projected to be automated within the next half-century. The "muh boostraps" ideology needs to come to terms with that reality.

I'd argue the "muh bootstraps" ideology, is so patently out of touch with reality already, that'll never happen. I bet you in 50 or so years when over half the American workforce is out of work (as we know it anyway) for no reason other than human labor being technologically obsolete, we'll still have that corner of politics that does nothing but complain about how we need more jobs to save the economy and that everyone who is poor and jobless just didn't work hard enough.

Good times. They be acoming

Don't you believe, though, that skill sets in a more mechanized enviornment will evolve to keep the work force employed in a fashion similar to when the country went from a primarily agrarian culture to industrial?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The more time we have between now and when that happens is time we can find a solution to this problem. Hastening its arrival is just asking for total economic collapse.

Here's a solution: don't allow a small amount of people to own so much stuff. The right-wing is quick to write off stuff like cellphones as "luxuries" that the unwashed poor really don't "need", so why is it that the people with enough money to potentially destabilize the economy "need" a private jet, or a luxury yacht? There's a diminishing return on the utility of money, after all.

Hear, hear.

Also, wage increases for poor people is money that gets spent in the country. A wage increase for a rich person just ends up sitting in an offshore tax haven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
In an environment where productivity is rising faster than demand can keep up due to advancements in technology and cheap out-sourced labor, "job creation" as the holy grail for social prosperity is quickly ceasing to be viable. Something like 50% of jobs are projected to be automated within the next half-century. The "muh boostraps" ideology needs to come to terms with that reality.

I'd argue the "muh bootstraps" ideology, is so patently out of touch with reality already, that'll never happen. I bet you in 50 or so years when over half the American workforce is out of work (as we know it anyway) for no reason other than human labor being technologically obsolete, we'll still have that corner of politics that does nothing but complain about how we need more jobs to save the economy and that everyone who is poor and jobless just didn't work hard enough.

Good times. They be acoming

Don't you believe, though, that skill sets in a more mechanized enviornment will evolve to keep the work force employed in a fashion similar to when the country went from a primarily agrarian culture to industrial?

The skillset required will change, but you will also require less of that skillset than you did with the unskilled skillset.

You don't need one engineer for every robot you have in your factory, so your factory will end up employing less people, for example.

For the agrarian to industrial example, it would be like a farmer suddenly only needing to employ three people to harvest a field thanks to owning a combine harvester whereas before he needed ten to do the same amount of work.

New work areas (repairing the robots for example) will open up, but there's currently no foreseeable place for all the people who will be put out of work to go. I say this with the admission, that I'm not psychic, and can't perfectly predict the future. And it's not like someday a switch is gonna be flipped and boom, tens of millions out of work. It'll take years even decades and who knows what changes might occur in that time.

I'll do an example; McDonalds. We had a thread some time ago about how they were testing a burger making machine. Eventually, that machine will be practical, and burger flippers and fry friers everywhere will be replaced. Eventually, even cashiers will be replaced, because why have someone man a store that is automated? People can just walk in, order off an interactive menu, and their food pops out.

There will be jobs restocking and repairing the machines of course... Until we make machines that can do that for us. Then we don't really need anyone managing the store. No need for managers or supervisors. No one to manage or supervise. Once a restocking machine is made, well there goes most of the people who work in stock rooms around the country. Amazon no longer has to worry about it's mistreated workers unionizing anymore (yey?). We'll eventually have automated cars and truckers, and there go all the people in distribution. Most jobs are just mechanical actions anyway, and the only thing anyone is waiting for is a good enough machine to do it better and cheaper. Once we have 'thinking machines' in who knows how long, even people like accountants or even low level engineers are replaced. A lot of stores and venues as currently built, probably can't support practically this kind of market, and will need to be rebuilt so there will be a construction boom, but will humans being doing that work or the Constructicons?

This eliminates so many workers, companies no longer needs Human Resources personnel. So now everyone in HR (which is currently one of the growth areas for jobs) is out of work because there's no human resources anymore.

Eventually, at some point, the only people who will be needed in an economic sense are people to make better robots, and we won't need 300,000,000 Americans to do that.

Point is, that capitalism as we currently know it is predicated on labor being a human resource. When human labor ceases to be a resource of any value, the whole thing falls apart. So what takes it's place? No idea, but in the middle of this change happening, I suspect a lot of people are going to be left with nothing and "they didn't work hard enough" will no longer be a valid excuse to ignore them because hard work (or lack there of) won't have anything to do with it.

The world has gone through a number of economic eras, starting with hunter gatherer and going forward through the millennia.
The work force adapts with each change and moves along to the next advance in civilization.
There are those periods of time where mass unemployment happens, but things find a way of evening back out.

One step closer to the Caste system.
Next thing you know there be a Civilian and a Citizen
University/Colleges will be out of date while those education establishments that gives certificates of completion of a tech/trade field will become popular.

So my short term goal is to slide into ICE so I can mandatory retire from there at 56 and then slide back into USCIS to retire at 60.
Overall I will receive five retirement checks thereby accomplishing my long term goal
The other goal is buying property in Thailand (I'm a Thai Citizen to now) and a couple of bars/clubs with friends in Pattaya....and live life till I die from over sex

 LordofHats wrote:
New work areas (repairing the robots for example) will open up, but there's currently no foreseeable place for all the people who will be put out of work to go. I say this with the admission, that I'm not psychic, and can't perfectly predict the future. And it's not like someday a switch is gonna be flipped and boom, tens of millions out of work. It'll take years even decades and who knows what changes might occur in that time.
...
Point is, that capitalism as we currently know it is predicated on labor being a human resource. When human labor ceases to be a resource of any value, the whole thing falls apart. So what takes it's place? No idea, but in the middle of this change happening, I suspect a lot of people are going to be left with nothing and "they didn't work hard enough" will no longer be a valid excuse to ignore them because hard work (or lack there of) won't have anything to do with it.

There are parallels in ancient Rome. Because of the prevalence of slaves , it became almost impossible for free men to find work. There were huge swathes of people that existed on hand outs (dole) and charity. It actually became one of their biggest social problems as the people ended up with little to do but cause trouble. I believe there were a lot of initiatives to try and get wealthy landowners to share their wealth and employ people, but typically it was resisted. It certainly contributed (in no small part) to the breakdown of their society.

World Revolution, here we come!
Who knows, maybe the commies will have the last laugh after all.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
World Revolution, here we come!
Who knows, maybe the commies will have the last laugh after all.

The proletariat of all countries, shoulder to shoulder against the bourgeois! I sense a heroic mural in the making!
I hope to see that sweeping historical figure, Ivan Kutcherkokov prominently displayed at the forefront.

Relapse wrote:
The world has gone through a number of economic eras, starting with hunter gatherer and going forward through the millennia.
The work force adapts with each change and moves along to the next advance in civilization.
There are those periods of time where mass unemployment happens, but things find a way of evening back out.

Sometimes what evens things out is chaos and war.

It's all about the rate of the change, if the whole thing happens slow enough, we'll be able to manage ok and everything will work out. It happens too fast, and, well, everything falls apart. And those are just two ends of the sliding scale, with societal disruption higher the greater the rate of change. I just hope to hell that when it comes, we are ready.

 Smacks wrote:

There are parallels in ancient Rome. Because of the prevalence of slaves , it became almost impossible for free men to find work.

Which is why selling yourself into slavery wasn't a terrible plan, it was the ur-internship.

 dogma wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

There are parallels in ancient Rome. Because of the prevalence of slaves , it became almost impossible for free men to find work.

Which is why selling yourself into slavery wasn't a terrible plan, it was the ur-internship.

It was also Joseph's plan for the Egyptians in the Genesis legend (perhaps thousands of years before Rome). After he monopolizes grain, he removes all the gold from circulation, then all the tradable goods, then on the third year the Egyptians are forced give him their land, and they are set to work on their own land to pay the rent. It reads like an ancient 101 in economic subjugation. And the really twisted part is that instead of rebelling and killing him for usurping all their land and wealth, they thank him for it, grateful for the opportunity to live as serfs on their own land.

Talk about history being doomed to repeat itself.

I wish I could live somewhere fascinating but I am...well I have a gakky little apartment surviving on disability so life isn't going to yield anything great, no fantastic places for me.

I do know I never want to live in the US with my dad, I really didn't care for the US when I was there.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I wish I could live somewhere fascinating but I am...well I have a gakky little apartment surviving on disability so life isn't going to yield anything great, no fantastic places for me.

I do know I never want to live in the US with my dad, I really didn't care for the US when I was there.

Canada is a nice place, though. I would love living in the Maritimes, some where in the country. Are you holed up in the city somewhere, or a small town? Depending on circumstance that can be pretty bad. Living in a big city always depressed me and made me feel closed in. I guess that's from growing up and living out in the country most places I was at in the U.S.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All I am saying is we shouldn't be taking unnecessary actions which only hasten the arrival of this approaching problem. Hiking minimum wage does nothing to help the working poor(as the costs of what they buy go up), directly harms everyone who doesn't get a wage increase but still have to pay the increased prices it causes, and it makes automation arrive that much sooner.

The more time we have between now and when that happens is time we can find a solution to this problem. Hastening its arrival is just asking for total economic collapse.

I’d just like to point out I’ve probably posted maybe a dozen times over the course of two or three years explaining to Gray Templar why this argument is so hopelessly wrong. To believe that an increase in minimum wage will result in an equal increase in cost of living expenses, then you have to believe that the entire cost of every product is labour (so no materials, no rent, no machinery), and that every person is on minimum wage. Those assumptions are, of course, ludicrous.

In reality, while labour is the largest element in most products, most labour costs are not paid to minimum wage workers. I don’t have a hard figure, but given less than 5% of workers are paid at less than the Federal minimum wage, we can conclude that the price increase from a minimum wage increase would be significantly less than 5% of the increase. So if minimum wage workers got a

I’m not sure there’s anything in my argument there that can be countered. It’s pretty simple stuff. Gray Templar certainly hasn’t ever tried to counter any of it. Instead he just avoids it, or simply doesn’t reply, and then pops up claiming the exact same nonsense a few months later.

So really, when someone just simply doesn’t care that what they’re saying is factually incorrect, what’s the point? What actually can be achieved by anyone, when other posters simply don’t care if what they’re saying has any truth behind it?

Relapse wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I wish I could live somewhere fascinating but I am...well I have a gakky little apartment surviving on disability so life isn't going to yield anything great, no fantastic places for me.

I do know I never want to live in the US with my dad, I really didn't care for the US when I was there.

Canada is a nice place, though. I would love living in the Maritimes, some where in the country. Are you holed up in the city somewhere, or a small town? Depending on circumstance that can be pretty bad. Living in a big city always depressed me and made me feel closed in. I guess that's from growing up and living out in the country most places I was at in the U.S.

I live in a city though for a short while lived in a small town and found it horrible since there was very little to do and everyone there was extremely unfriendly (and/or stupid) that and police swarmed everywhere and harassed any man from the ages of 15-35 for no reason (to be fair a lot of men in that town turned to crime due to its sub par economy).
What would I do in the country?
Sure my standard of living might be a bit better but what would that ultimately mean? What would I do?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I wish I could live somewhere fascinating but I am...well I have a gakky little apartment surviving on disability so life isn't going to yield anything great, no fantastic places for me.

I do know I never want to live in the US with my dad, I really didn't care for the US when I was there.

Canada is a nice place, though. I would love living in the Maritimes, some where in the country. Are you holed up in the city somewhere, or a small town? Depending on circumstance that can be pretty bad. Living in a big city always depressed me and made me feel closed in. I guess that's from growing up and living out in the country most places I was at in the U.S.

I live in a city though for a short while lived in a small town and found it horrible since there was very little to do and everyone there was extremely unfriendly (and/or stupid) that and police swarmed everywhere and harassed any man from the ages of 15-35 for no reason (to be fair a lot of men in that town turned to crime due to its sub par economy).
What would I do in the country?
Sure my standard of living might be a bit better but what would that ultimately mean? What would I do?

I don't know you, so I couldn't say. Do you have any skills that are marketable? Just as a quick thought, a friend works for Jet Blue and has a great time with it. They earn money and miles, and end up flying all over the place for vacations. All this is done from their home.

Relapse wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I wish I could live somewhere fascinating but I am...well I have a gakky little apartment surviving on disability so life isn't going to yield anything great, no fantastic places for me.

I do know I never want to live in the US with my dad, I really didn't care for the US when I was there.

Canada is a nice place, though. I would love living in the Maritimes, some where in the country. Are you holed up in the city somewhere, or a small town? Depending on circumstance that can be pretty bad. Living in a big city always depressed me and made me feel closed in. I guess that's from growing up and living out in the country most places I was at in the U.S.

I live in a city though for a short while lived in a small town and found it horrible since there was very little to do and everyone there was extremely unfriendly (and/or stupid) that and police swarmed everywhere and harassed any man from the ages of 15-35 for no reason (to be fair a lot of men in that town turned to crime due to its sub par economy).
What would I do in the country?
Sure my standard of living might be a bit better but what would that ultimately mean? What would I do?

I don't know you, so I couldn't say. Do you have any skills that are marketable? Just as a quick thought, a friend works for Jet Blue and has a great time with it. They earn money and miles, and end up flying all over the place for vacations. All this is done from their home.

Uh no not really, I wasted a lot of time in nonsense and I sit in my late 20s with really nothing to show for it.
Not that I had much drive in the first place, being on disability is... I donno it takes a lot away from you, emotionally.
People look down on you, you obviously can't work full time, you'll forever be in near poverty.
I've lost a lot of hope in life.
I can't move out of the province, I have no idea what the process is about that.

Not knowing the nature of your disability, I'd say you are still young and have more possibilities than you realize. Have you considered going back to school? I understand Canada has good help for students. Do you have a passion for something?

Relapse wrote:
Not knowing the nature of your disability, I'd say you are still young and have more possibilities than you realize. Have you considered going back to school? I understand Canada has good help for students. Do you have a passion for something?

I'm still in school lol (adult high school, mostly due to health reasons, like physical not mental) so... no after this I want to not think about school for a little bit lol
I wouldn't be able to afford school, and I don't think I could be a full time student (disability money or not) not something I could handle again.
I had a horrid experience in school, and it's always been a painful link to all that.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Not knowing the nature of your disability, I'd say you are still young and have more possibilities than you realize. Have you considered going back to school? I understand Canada has good help for students. Do you have a passion for something?

I'm still in school lol (adult high school, mostly due to health reasons, like physical not mental) so... no after this I want to not think about school for a little bit lol
I wouldn't be able to afford school, and I don't think I could be a full time student (disability money or not) not something I could handle again.
I had a horrid experience in school, and it's always been a painful link to all that.

I'll carry this with you to PM later tomorrow. It sounds like you feel yourself in a tight spot that in all likely hood won't be solved on this forum. I can offer some suggestions and maybe some of your fellow Canuks can give you better advice than me.
About all I can tell you right now is to stay strong. I was in a verycrappy situation myself years ago, living in a crack house, thinking life was gak. It's a story in itself, that I won't relate here, except to say I pulled out of that spiral for a far better life.

 sebster wrote:
So really, when someone just simply doesn’t care that what they’re saying is factually incorrect, what’s the point? What actually can be achieved by anyone, when other posters simply don’t care if what they’re saying has any truth behind it?

The point is to expose the logical inconsistencies to anyone on the fence who may be following the conversation. You don't converse with Grey Templar, you converse at him because he literally doesn't have the capacity to be intellectually honest in a debate- but other folks reading this might.

Relapse wrote:
Living in a big city always depressed me and made me feel closed in. I guess that's from growing up and living out in the country most places I was at in the U.S.

Haha, as a city-boy I have the exact opposite feeling. I visited Texas for the first time last week, Houston specifically, and while it's a very beautiful place (and the prospect of $1.50/gallon gas is immensely appealing) I dunno if I could ever live there. Too much open land. I can't handle looking out and being able to see nothing but flat land for as far as the horizon goes, it freaks me out. :p

I sympathize with the feeling of being in a flat area. There has to be some kind of variation to make it interesting.
I live in Utah now, ringed in by some of the most gorgeous mountains I have seen anywhere. Getting to the top of them and looking out over the countryside is amazing.

I don't understand how people can stand living in mountains, completely surrounded on all sides. Places like Utah are way too far from the sea for my liking. I just can't stand being away from the sea for a long time, I get really homesick. It is something in the air I think. Sea air is best air. And seagulls. There is nothing like the sound of seagulls.
Coastal mountains are quite nice though, just a bit too cold in winter.

The sea is very important for standards of living. Landlocked places tend to have lower standards of living than coastal places. That goes for economy (no access to sea resources and trade) and apparantly health too:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120716191439.htm

I do miss good seafood, having lived in Maine and New Orleans. I can also say, though, that there is a far higher standard of living on average where I am at in Utah than either of those places.
If there were some way to combine Maine and Utah, it would be the perfect place to live.