Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The claim that you are stuck to Land Raiders and *Rhinos* is patently false, as demonstrated by the lists if other transports in this thread.

Using Forge World units is somehow not playing Mono-CSM or anything - they are still CSM units that can be taken in a single CAD with regular dex units. Some of them are even dedicated transports, iirc.

The whole "patently false" is arguably subjective on a player by player, or perhaps local meta by local meta, basis.

Ex. I live in an area in which every group of 40k players frown upon the use of forgeworld outside of HH stuff (and that's only starting to be okay thanks to Betrayal at Calth), so IF i bothered to drop money on FW goodies for my CSM (I admit the chance of this is extremely low as I only buy things at a discount and the last time I saw anything FW on discount was somewhere between "the 7th of Never through to thee 15th of Ain't Gonna Happen"), chances are that no one would play me except my brother and it would end up being a dust collector on the shelf.

Thus, in order to get games in my area - casual or competitive, I am stuck with what is available in the CSM codex. Well, more like whatever is available through the GW website so yes, allies included, but even then I still feel a sense of wanting with Chaos.

That's your own group's fault then. Nothing from FW is absurdly broken, or if anything fixes things that needed to be fixed (Land Raiders are JUNK, so take a Spartan instead, etc).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's your own group's fault then. Nothing from FW is absurdly broken, or if anything fixes things that needed to be fixed (Land Raiders are JUNK, so take a Spartan instead, etc).

I'm well aware of that BUT the point was there are legitimate reasons for individual players not finding the FW route being a worthy expenditure I.E. having no incentive to purchase FW due to the local meta being one of those that frowns upon the use of FW.

Thus telling such players to use forgeworld products to solve their problems is NOT a viable solution.

Of course you're correct that one shouldn't have to jump to FW to fix problems and it should just be more of an expansion.

Lord knows I've tried several to get the codex workable...

Seems like we are going in circles but largely agree on one thing. The CSM codex by itself is not a good book and can't stand up to even moderate lists of the 7.5 codexes with out a lot of crutches.

The only prenecron book that seems to have aged well is chaos demons.

@unit1126PLL - Are you by any chance an SM player or one of the other holy quartet players?

Chaos should not have to rely on FW and allies.
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.
The fact that they do proves that they are in need of severe help.

What really made me chuckle is the number of so called CSM lists that have no space marines in them. That to me highlights more than anything that the book is deeply flawed

What really made me chuckle is the number of so called CSM lists that have no space marines in them. That to me highlights more than anything that the book is deeply flawed

100% this.

That is the biggest atrocity of the book. The fact that people go out of their way to avoid the main unit you should be playing the army to use.

Chaos Marines are supposed to play very similarly to the way that Space Wolves play. They are a close quarters MEQ army that relies on marines as midfield support for heavy hitting Close Combat hero's. The big difference between Chaos Marines and Space Wolves is that Chaos Marines have only 2 transports (in codex) and Space Wolves have 8 (5 of which are assault transports) and the Wolves also got thunderwolf cav before Chaos got Skullcrushers (lol). Space Wolves have all the tools they need to make their army work, Chaos simply does not. The only Assault transport available to Chaos is the worst variant of Land Raider that has a pitiful transport capacity and is severely overcosted. It can't even carry a basic unit of 5 Terminators + a Hero in Terminator armour, not that you ever would on a competitive level, but you know it would be nice.

Chaos simply is not equipped with the tools it needs to make much of their army function properly, it's an extremely ponderous army in an edition where everything is super fast and super hard hitting.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
What really made me chuckle is the number of so called CSM lists that have no space marines in them. That to me highlights more than anything that the book is deeply flawed

And that's the sad sad truth. If my CSM buddy just wants a beer-and-pretzels fight he'll use CSM, but if it's a serious battle he really can't take more than a (fully powered-up) CSM Sorcerer and maybe five Chosen as bodyguards for the big kahoona.

I cant believe this thread is even a thing...

What other army requires a massive middle finger from GW and a directional map to FW in order to compete on any level other than plebian? The answer is none aside Chaos Soace Marines.

Telling anyone else otherwise is a direct indication of how sadly imature and in denial one is. CSM being literally the only faction you cannot gain basic forms of vehicles like LRCs, allowed within the faction, but without a $250 unvestment of a FW book makes it unusable. Let alone the model you have to convert due to GW BS.

So lets get into it then...

Oh suuure we can sink anither 300ish dollars into the Chaos Faction through FW for basic rules to a faction that "has access" to these models but otherwise cannot use. We could do this and gain access to formations that allow us basic privileges like making our models and units "Decent" and pretend like theyre well thought out and play tested. We COULD, but do YOU have to with your army? No? Did you just buy a basic Rulebook that had everything your army needed and buy your models from your local GW store? That must be nice. Because i had to buy my extra book, buy my extra models and use additional rules just compete with even basic army books. This may be an expensive hobby, but your head is far up your own ass if you think people who play a certain army should be ostracized into having to fork over MORE just to play against little Timmy and his FOTM Eldar

To be fair as an occasional Ork player the prospects arn't much better.

 King Pariah wrote:
Ex. I live in an area in which every group of 40k players frown upon the use of forgeworld outside of HH stuff

Well that's a problem with your fellow players, not the rules provided by GW. This is no more reasonable than complaining about how your C:SM army doesn't have any transports because you have a house rule that vehicles are banned. Instead of blaming GW for the actions of your fellow players try asking them to stop being TFGs?

 master of ordinance wrote:
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.

No codex should have to rely on vehicles.
No codex should have to rely on troops.
No codex should have to rely on melta weapons.
No codex should have to rely on units from page 67.
No codex should have to rely on units.

Don't invent your own arbitrary rule categories (which have nothing to do with the rules provided by GW) and then complain that an army is broken if it requires rules from the "wrong" category. That's a problem with your category divisions, not the normal rules of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
No? Did you just buy a basic Rulebook that had everything your army needed and buy your models from your local GW store?

Nope. My armored company IG army requires additional rulebooks and models I can't buy from my local GW store (not that any sane person would ever voluntarily go to a GW store). I suppose I could make a crude approximation of the army with the new campaign book, but that's still buying additional rulebooks and I wouldn't be able to use some of my models. And god help you if you play SoB, your models are all online-only and your codex is OOP.

As someone who is usually pro GW. The above is both bad business and bad design. Telling someone who started any army that if they want to be able to play at a mid level of compitition that they need need two more books and dozens of resin models is stupid.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
As someone who is usually pro GW. The above is both bad business and bad design. Telling someone who started any army that if they want to be able to play at a mid level of compitition that they need need two more books and dozens of resin models is stupid.

Welcome to 7th edition. "Here's a new book that you have to buy to keep up with everyone else" is GW's standard business model. If your army doesn't have a book or three yet it's only because GW hasn't had a release slot for them yet.

I find the above untrue. Look at the top four. Eldar Marines Necrons and Tau don't need any supplements. They benefit from them, but what is arguably the strongest faction in the game, craftworld eldar, only need one book

 Peregrine wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
Ex. I live in an area in which every group of 40k players frown upon the use of forgeworld outside of HH stuff

Well that's a problem with your fellow players, not the rules provided by GW. This is no more reasonable than complaining about how your C:SM army doesn't have any transports because you have a house rule that vehicles are banned. Instead of blaming GW for the actions of your fellow players try asking them to stop being TFGs?

They never said it was GWs fault, just that it was an example of why someone might not find it worthwhile to go the FW route.

 master of ordinance wrote:
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.

No codex should have to rely on vehicles.
No codex should have to rely on troops.
No codex should have to rely on melta weapons.
No codex should have to rely on units from page 67.
No codex should have to rely on units.

Don't invent your own arbitrary rule categories (which have nothing to do with the rules provided by GW) and then complain that an army is broken if it requires rules from the "wrong" category. That's a problem with your category divisions, not the normal rules of the game.

These are different because they're all from within the codex. When you buy a codex, you shouldn't then have to spend more money for books and rules outside the codex for the army to work. If you choose to that's different but it shouldn't be needed for your force to be as playable as other armies just from their one book.

GoliothOnline wrote:I cant believe this thread is even a thing...

What other army requires a massive middle finger from GW and a directional map to FW in order to compete on any level other than plebian? The answer is none aside Chaos Soace Marines.

Telling anyone else otherwise is a direct indication of how sadly imature and in denial one is. CSM being literally the only faction you cannot gain basic forms of vehicles like LRCs, allowed within the faction, but without a $250 unvestment of a FW book makes it unusable. Let alone the model you have to convert due to GW BS.

So lets get into it then...

Oh suuure we can sink anither 300ish dollars into the Chaos Faction through FW for basic rules to a faction that "has access" to these models but otherwise cannot use. We could do this and gain access to formations that allow us basic privileges like making our models and units "Decent" and pretend like theyre well thought out and play tested. We COULD, but do YOU have to with your army? No? Did you just buy a basic Rulebook that had everything your army needed and buy your models from your local GW store? That must be nice. Because i had to buy my extra book, buy my extra models and use additional rules just compete with even basic army books. This may be an expensive hobby, but your head is far up your own ass if you think people who play a certain army should be ostracized into having to fork over MORE just to play against little Timmy and his FOTM Eldar

I'm assuming that you don't realize that I play Chaos Marines, myself, (it's understandable, I don't mark it out on my profile), so my real issue with this post is that anybody would even dream of buying a non-collectible FW book. You do realize that you can download 99% of GW's (and its subsidiaries') books for free, correct? For instance, by googling "Imperial Armour 13 PDF" when I got curious about it, I was able to download a book within which was a whole lot of units and interesting reading.

 master of ordinance wrote:
@unit1126PLL - Are you by any chance an SM player or one of the other holy quartet players?

Chaos should not have to rely on FW and allies.
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.
The fact that they do proves that they are in need of severe help.

No, my 40k army is SOB and in 30k I play Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia. I used to play guard tanks as well.

And my armies, every single one, rely on FW and allies. Are they all in need of severe help?

Heck, two of my armies won't even exist without forgeworld. Where does that put them on your arbitrary scale of 'armies shouldn't need forge world?'

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
@unit1126PLL - Are you by any chance an SM player or one of the other holy quartet players?

Chaos should not have to rely on FW and allies.
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.
The fact that they do proves that they are in need of severe help.

No, my 40k army is SOB and in 30k I play Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia. I used to play guard tanks as well.

And my armies, every single one, rely on FW and allies. Are they all in need of severe help?

Heck, two of my armies won't even exist without forgeworld. Where does that put them on your arbitrary scale of 'armies shouldn't need forge world?'

Dude you play Sistas, you really need a hug or a beer.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
@unit1126PLL - Are you by any chance an SM player or one of the other holy quartet players?

Chaos should not have to rely on FW and allies.
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.
The fact that they do proves that they are in need of severe help.

No, my 40k army is SOB and in 30k I play Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia. I used to play guard tanks as well.

And my armies, every single one, rely on FW and allies. Are they all in need of severe help?

Heck, two of my armies won't even exist without forgeworld. Where does that put them on your arbitrary scale of 'armies shouldn't need forge world?'

Dude you play Sistas, you really need a hug or a beer.

Lately, I confess, I have used Mechanicum for most of my games.

...due to the being limited to rhinos, I play plague marines in rhinos. I move 12 and another 6 in shot phase or pop smoke. Then the rhino gives first blood. The plague marines disembark. They have to snap fire. Enemy charges me and I snap fire still. I have defensive grenades so no attack bonus for them. We get locked in combat for 2 or more turns.

 Filch wrote:
...due to the being limited to rhinos, I play plague marines in rhinos. I move 12 and another 6 in shot phase or pop smoke. Then the rhino gives first blood. The plague marines disembark. They have to snap fire. Enemy charges me and I snap fire still. I have defensive grenades so no attack bonus for them. We get locked in combat for 2 or more turns.

It is stories like this that make me glad that no army, not even Sisters, is limited to only rhinos.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Look at the KDK codex which incorporates CSM and daemons into one book. It's totally cool IMO and also has been proven as viable. I think it's okay to say you only want to use one codex but not right to say it's wrong for others to use more than one - which can be a way to design a really cool army... Not just something simply built to win games.

I don't think that KDK should be a good example.

I love the book and the way it plays, but it does nothing to correct the glaring defaults of CSM, it just add a nice army wide mechanic, that is both fluff and usefull, and gives Deamons in the book Fearless, other then that, KDK takes out a lot of stuff.

The units limitation i can see why for some, for some others i don't but hey, but there is a lot of stuff that got lost in the process, for no good reasons, Chaos Boons, its argueable if it is a lose or not, Chaos Rewards for Deamons, so that we end up to be the only codex that half of our HQ's as actually less options then a Sergent..., no Dirgecasters, in a book where it would be mighty usefull..., unclear rule about summoned FMC, no reworks for the Blood Crushers or Zerkers, NO NEW KDK ONLY UNIT, Zerkers on Juggers?, nope, somekind of super elite Zerker/Khorne's chosen unit?, go feth yourself, on the 8 formations we have, 2 are "good" the rest is just a joke and our only SHW cost 888pts for something that is just a bit better then a Knight( and then again i'm not so sure about this).

Only redeeming of KDK is BftBG rule, wich makes it fluffy and kinda forces the players to play aggressive..., wich is fluffy.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Look at the KDK codex which incorporates CSM and daemons into one book. It's totally cool IMO and also has been proven as viable. I think it's okay to say you only want to use one codex but not right to say it's wrong for others to use more than one - which can be a way to design a really cool army... Not just something simply built to win games.

I don't think that KDK should be a good example.

I love the book and the way it plays, but it does nothing to correct the glaring defaults of CSM, it just add a nice army wide mechanic, that is both fluff and usefull, and gives Deamons in the book Fearless, other then that, KDK takes out a lot of stuff.

The units limitation i can see why for some, for some others i don't but hey, but there is a lot of stuff that got lost in the process, for no good reasons, Chaos Boons, its argueable if it is a lose or not, Chaos Rewards for Deamons, so that we end up to be the only codex that half of our HQ's as actually less options then a Sergent..., no Dirgecasters, in a book where it would be mighty usefull..., unclear rule about summoned FMC, no reworks for the Blood Crushers or Zerkers, NO NEW KDK ONLY UNIT, Zerkers on Juggers?, nope, somekind of super elite Zerker/Khorne's chosen unit?, go feth yourself, on the 8 formations we have, 2 are "good" the rest is just a joke and our only SHW cost 888pts for something that is just a bit better then a Knight( and then again i'm not so sure about this).

Only redeeming of KDK is BftBG rule, wich makes it fluffy and kinda forces the players to play aggressive..., wich is fluffy.

Stop talking sense man! We've got the Gorepack which is sooooooo OP!! And we can still spam Heldrakes, and of course, every list ever throws Be'lakor in there to auto-cast Invis every single turn on our super cheesy Str.D Bloodthirster!

Those poor little Loyalist players are totally forced to go with a boring cookie-cutter build to even stand an outside chance of staying up there with our amazing Daemonkin rules!

Experiment 626 wrote:


Those poor little Loyalist players are totally forced to go with a boring cookie-cutter build to even stand an outside chance of staying up there with our amazing Daemonkin rules!

You do realize that a bunch of the Chapter Tactics in the Vanilla Codex are much worse than the others, right? I mean, Raven Guard or Black Templars aren't as bad as the worst stuff in the Chaos Codex, but if you're not playing as Ultramarines or White Scars you might as well go home, because those two are leagues ahead of everyone else.

I mean, you complain that Chaos is being unfairly treated (which I agree with, BTW) because you have to jump through hoops to get an army that's half-decent, only to turn around and pretend like every loyalist army is the same. There's some of us over here who aren't exactly pleased with the situation either, with the difference that any complaints are waved off with "but C:SM is GREAT!" instead of "lol just use allies".

I see it's that time of the day where CSM players bash the Loyalists. Fun times.

I find it quite funny to see KDK dismissed. Fielding CSM and Daemons is by no means a crutch. In fact it's super fluffy.

I agree it's fluffy and I don't begrunge any player who does it but if you need allies to make your codex viable than something is wrong with your codex.

I don't think so the way army design works now. We have to work with what we have.

@OP: You are completely right. Dreadclaws rock as transports. IA:13 is an excellent read and a fantastic supplement, as it gives you a new Codex (Lost and the Damned) as well as an entire CSM/ KDK supplement. A fantastic read for lore and for rules. Considering its equivalent in GW books would cost $150 CDN and I just paid $125 including shipping, I'd say I got a bargain.

People say Chaos has no delivery because they'd rather focus on why they can't make a list as powerful as the equivalent in Codex Adeptus Astartes. The reason is simple... This is not Codex Adeptus Astartes.

The debating and arguing is redundant. Those who hate Chaos will never be able to set aside their jealousy to focus on making an effective army with the tools they have, those who love Chaos will have to deal with the cross of being in the minority. That means being ignored and invalidated by logical fallacy.

Those who hate Chaos have three options: play a different army, proxy a different army as Chaos, learn to live with the Chaos codex as it stands.

We don't have the best delivery methods in the game. But we do have them. If you can't win with them, don't use them.