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Bossk_Hogg wrote:
El-Oh-friggin-El. What a joke. Good thing they unlocked 3 tiny waving flag pieces for your $500 pledge! It looks better than the Russian Castlecraft stuff, but not 10X better.

For those who might be considering the Russian Castlecraft sets... They're neat but not the right scale!

They are modeled in 1/72 scale, and are tiny up against Reaper Bones, GW or PP scale figures. The doors come up to the figure's head, a single 28mm figure barely fits atop one of their towers. Learn from my mishap: I bought two of the Castlecraft boxes, and down in my garage they will live from here on out!

Unless anyone wants a set of 1/72 castles. Then PM me and we can work something out!

Fablab sounds great.

Shame that of the 10 of them in Canada, none of them are even in my province (the most populated in the country).

I can totally foresee using 3D printers to make bits to enhance my existing terrain some day, but given the cost of the printer, the materials, and the need to find or make the files, I can't see myself going purely to that for terrain until the technology has not only evolved some, but also become vastly easier to get ahold of. There's definitely some printers here in Toronto, but their costs in time, materials, and opportunities are vastly more than "$2 US per item here", at least as of the last time I checked.

it would certainly be worth looking at their website and seeing what services they offer,
how much support they give in terms of techs,
could you leave stuff to be printed for you or do you have to be there?
what the costs might be,
what files their printers can run (a really important one if you are considering buying them)

and if it sound promising popping along to chat with them in person

also are you somebody who wants lots and lots of terrain for yourself (and your group/store) or only a few bits and pieces as the more you want the more potential savings to outweigh the hassle of travelling/learning how to do things/buying files etc

For lower end 3d printers, some public libraries now have one available. (Portland, Maine USA, as an example.)

The Auld Grump

There is a Fablab in Del City Oklahoma. It's about 20 minutes from where I live. I'm going to check it out tomorrow to see if it's compatible with the software on the kickstarter Hopefully I'll get an idea of cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is at a college.

 pancakeonions wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
El-Oh-friggin-El. What a joke. Good thing they unlocked 3 tiny waving flag pieces for your $500 pledge! It looks better than the Russian Castlecraft stuff, but not 10X better.

For those who might be considering the Russian Castlecraft sets... They're neat but not the right scale!

They are modeled in 1/72 scale, and are tiny up against Reaper Bones, GW or PP scale figures. The doors come up to the figure's head, a single 28mm figure barely fits atop one of their towers. Learn from my mishap: I bought two of the Castlecraft boxes, and down in my garage they will live from here on out!

Unless anyone wants a set of 1/72 castles. Then PM me and we can work something out!

I bought three sets for Frostgrave ruins and I think they will work great for that purpose (when I get to that project in 2034).
They are modular enough that you could probably do something with them to fix the scale but other options would probably make more sense once you open up the door to that much work.

In OT news, I have decided to develop my basement instead of buying a Dwarven Forge Castle. My kids need a place to play more than my angry barbarians apparently.

*You* decided this, or the significant other *you* decided for you?

Because I'm pretty sure I've heard myself say similar things in certain situations before, when I would have least expected words of the sort to actually come out of my mouth...

 Ken Oakley wrote:
There is a Fablab in Del City Oklahoma. It's about 20 minutes from where I live. I'm going to check it out tomorrow to see if it's compatible with the software on the kickstarter Hopefully I'll get an idea of cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is at a college.

STL is a file format for 3d models. It's one of the most common ones and I think it's the go to format for almost every 3d printer I've heard of. Not that I've been following them this year :/

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
*You* decided this, or the significant other *you* decided for you?

Because I'm pretty sure I've heard myself say similar things in certain situations before, when I would have least expected words of the sort to actually come out of my mouth...

I am pretty sure that if it were my good lady and I... it would be 'We'.

The Auld Grump, now mesmerized by the thought of a basement rec room...

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
*You* decided this, or the significant other *you* decided for you?

Because I'm pretty sure I've heard myself say similar things in certain situations before, when I would have least expected words of the sort to actually come out of my mouth...

We've been together long enough that it's hard to say...

Also the basement being finished will give us room for future castles, so I'm playing the long game.

 Forar wrote:
As a mediocre painter, being able to get the pieces pre-painted is in fact a big part of the appeal.

Just an FYI, but it is ridiculously easy to paint DF. You don't even have to be mediocre. And unlike minis, you don't have to concentrate too hard or use a magnifying lamp. You can do it while watching a movie or netflix or whatever.

Yeah, terrain in general looks fine with some big-brush base colors and a wash. Easy times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pancakeonions wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
El-Oh-friggin-El. What a joke. Good thing they unlocked 3 tiny waving flag pieces for your $500 pledge! It looks better than the Russian Castlecraft stuff, but not 10X better.

For those who might be considering the Russian Castlecraft sets... They're neat but not the right scale!

They are modeled in 1/72 scale, and are tiny up against Reaper Bones, GW or PP scale figures. The doors come up to the figure's head, a single 28mm figure barely fits atop one of their towers. Learn from my mishap: I bought two of the Castlecraft boxes, and down in my garage they will live from here on out!

Unless anyone wants a set of 1/72 castles. Then PM me and we can work something out!

I recommended these so I feel bad if anyone bought them because of that. I thought the figures in their pictures were 28mm or bigger..

 Fugazi wrote:

 Forar wrote:
As a mediocre painter, being able to get the pieces pre-painted is in fact a big part of the appeal.

Just an FYI, but it is ridiculously easy to paint DF. You don't even have to be mediocre. And unlike minis, you don't have to concentrate too hard or use a magnifying lamp. You can do it while watching a movie or netflix or whatever.

I'm quite happy with the paint job I ended up doing on my Dungeon tiles (3 sets in grey, did a base coat, some minor detailing, and then two drybrush rounds).

It still took like an entire series on in the background to complete. (Spartacus, aka "Sex and Violence: The TV Series")

Paying like 20-30% more to not spend those dozens of hours on a job that'd be as good at best (probably considerably worse) is an exchange I'm okay with making.

It seems there's enough of a discussion that perhaps we should start a separate thread about perceptions of value in miniature gaming terrain, because while I can respect this project isn't for everyone, it's a little frustrating to be excited about their fourth campaign, but find the thread mostly people trying to convince me it's not as good as I think it is, despite owning a couple cubic feet worth of it.

Perception of value is like 90% of the News and Rumor discussion.. frustration is the other 10% (or maybe that's backwards)..

I don't think many people are saying that this is a bad product so much as that the price is simply bonkers. As was pointed out.. you could literally renovate your gaming room (or make one) for the cost of this.

 Forar wrote:
It seems there's enough of a discussion that perhaps we should start a separate thread about perceptions of value in miniature gaming terrain, because while I can respect this project isn't for everyone, it's a little frustrating to be excited about their fourth campaign, but find the thread mostly people trying to convince me it's not as good as I think it is, despite owning a couple cubic feet worth of it.

Ha you must be new here, welcome to Dakka Dakka! It wouldn't be a Dakka thread without someone('s) complaining about about price or something else (though in this case it's justified IMO as it's bad for the industry!).

Replace "Dakka Dakka" with "Life in General" and yeah, I agree with you!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If that's been done at a Fablab it will be a university/research group grade printer, usually with a technicial who knows how to use if properly so all you need is appropriate files (and usually some cash either for a monthly/yearly subscription and material)

that's the beauty of the Fablab concept for those that can get access to one

have a look to see if there is one near you https://www.fablabs.io/

they all have different set of equipment/skills/charges etc

That's rather awesome, there's none near enough to me, but that print result is amazing, can't wait for consumer grade technology to catch up, it'll be amazing when it does, whole wargames business will be revolutionized.

How is this remotely 'bad for the industry'? According to Stefan, the offerings in this KS are running on thin margins, it's not like they're gouging people, and the last few pages have been indicative that they aren't running a monopoly on terrain.

Consumers have options, they have a consumer base who is willing to pay what they ask, I fail to see the problem.

overtyrant wrote:

 Forar wrote:
It seems there's enough of a discussion that perhaps we should start a separate thread about perceptions of value in miniature gaming terrain, because while I can respect this project isn't for everyone, it's a little frustrating to be excited about their fourth campaign, but find the thread mostly people trying to convince me it's not as good as I think it is, despite owning a couple cubic feet worth of it.

Ha you must be new here, welcome to Dakka Dakka! It wouldn't be a Dakka thread without someone('s) complaining about about price or something else (though in this case it's justified IMO as it's bad for the industry!).

That makes no sense. How could it possibly be "bad for the industry" to have new, different, or innovative products available? If they are more expensive than people are willing to pay, then people won't buy them and they won't catch on. That doesn't harm the industry any. It may hurt your feelings that there's something you want but can't afford, but I'm sure that's the case in just about every industry.

Albino Squirrel wrote:

overtyrant wrote:

 Forar wrote:
It seems there's enough of a discussion that perhaps we should start a separate thread about perceptions of value in miniature gaming terrain, because while I can respect this project isn't for everyone, it's a little frustrating to be excited about their fourth campaign, but find the thread mostly people trying to convince me it's not as good as I think it is, despite owning a couple cubic feet worth of it.

Ha you must be new here, welcome to Dakka Dakka! It wouldn't be a Dakka thread without someone('s) complaining about about price or something else (though in this case it's justified IMO as it's bad for the industry!).

That makes no sense. How could it possibly be "bad for the industry" to have new, different, or innovative products available? If they are more expensive than people are willing to pay, then people won't buy them and they won't catch on. That doesn't harm the industry any. It may hurt your feelings that there's something you want but can't afford, but I'm sure that's the case in just about every industry.

Ha! I can VERY easily afford this thanks to my very well paid job! It's bad for the industry as it will keep pushing prices up on a product that shouldn't cost as much, then others will follow as well and the price creep will continue.

Seriously.. if you don't think this is going to effect the prices of KS Terrain projects then you haven't been paying attention to what's been happening to the prices of KS Boardgames.

 MLaw wrote:
Perception of value is like 90% of the News and Rumor discussion.. frustration is the other 10% (or maybe that's backwards)..

I don't think many people are saying that this is a bad product so much as that the price is simply bonkers. As was pointed out.. you could literally renovate your gaming room (or make one) for the cost of this.

Or look at how many Hirst molds you can buy for the price of just the one tower from Dwarven Forge....

Still, they are getting the money they wanted, just not from me.

The Auld Grump

This would require Dwarven Forge to have some sort of massive grip on the market, to influence global pricing of something with a massive variety of options (as we've seen in the past few pages), from toys to 3D printed custom stuff to various other wargame terrain.

I can totally see it being too expensive for many people, I've even noted that I myself may well be priced out of the contribution I'd like to make, between the current (awful) exchange rate and the additional shipping fees (neither in DF's control).

But to call it 'bad for the industry' as though they're some kind of leader strikes me as requiring a citation. They're on their fourth KS, and while I've seen many similar (if not outright copycat) campaigns over the years, I wouldn't say they've impacted the prices at retail stores by any noteworthy margin.

Prices may well be going up based on inflation and cost changes in materials, production, shipping, whatever.

But they aren't going up (far as I can tell) based on Dwarven Forge running a ~$2m USD campaign per year for a couple thousand people. Hell, there are nearly 10,000 people *online on this very forum right now*.

If you can afford it and choose not to, that's totally your choice, but I don't for a second buy that somehow DF is harming global gaming terrain sales by catering to a niche of a niche market. If that's so evident, let's see the math/evidence that brings a couple of people here to that conclusion.

It doesn't take a grip on the industry.. It takes terrain companies starting Kickstarters looking at previous efforts like this and like Manorhouse etc.. to say.. "hey, that's what these guys are charging, that's where I should be".

AND.. by the way.. you are sending mixed signals.. If you think this is reasonably priced (which you indicated you don't) then this "should" be the prices others are charging. If you think this is over priced, then this is a bad move either on a consumer level or a industry level.. at least one or the other. It sounds a bit like you want to defend them because you like their products, which is fine.. but when you are also saying that it's overpriced, it makes it really hard to understand where you're coming from.

For me, if someone likes their products.. that's fantastic, I'll never tell someone "you can't like that" but at the same time, if I see what looks like a spade, I'm calling it that. This, is an overpriced toy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Perception of value is like 90% of the News and Rumor discussion.. frustration is the other 10% (or maybe that's backwards)..

I don't think many people are saying that this is a bad product so much as that the price is simply bonkers. As was pointed out.. you could literally renovate your gaming room (or make one) for the cost of this.

Or look at how many Hirst molds you can buy for the price of just the one tower from Dwarven Forge....

Still, they are getting the money they wanted, just not from me.

The Auld Grump

Castles are big and easy enough really that if I need one, it'll probably be done in pink foam over a weekend. I've never needed one for roleplaying or tabletop though and don't feel particularly compelled by this. The design is boring and the value is horrid.

Look at the designs of the castle and other bits from that 3d printed project that's also in the N&R right now.. That stuff has style! The DF designs are something I could crank out using foamcore and cardboard.

 MLaw wrote:
It doesn't take a grip on the industry.. It takes terrain companies starting Kickstarters looking at previous efforts like this and like Manorhouse etc.. to say.. "hey, that's what these guys are charging, that's where I should be".

AND.. by the way.. you are sending mixed signals.. If you think this is reasonably priced (which you indicated you don't) then this "should" be the prices others are charging. If you think this is over priced, then this is a bad move either on a consumer level or a industry level.. at least one or the other. It sounds a bit like you want to defend them because you like their products, which is fine.. but when you are also saying that it's overpriced, it makes it really hard to understand where you're coming from.

For me, if someone likes their products.. that's fantastic, I'll never tell someone "you can't like that" but at the same time, if I see what looks like a spade, I'm calling it that. This, is an overpriced toy.

I never said it was over priced.

I said I might not be able to afford to participate to the degree I would like. Just because I want to spend $200 on a PS4 doesn't mean I expect a PS4 to cost $200.

I thought I made that distinction pretty clear. There are people who relish sending thousands (plural) of dollars to each of these campaigns. I am not one of them. I'm pretty sure my contribution has been below the Kicktraq average for every single one, and this one won't be any different.

Just because I can't justify buying a Grand Citadel and a half dozen extra Watch Towers doesn't mean it's overpriced, it means I have a reasonable grasp of my financial limits and recognize I can't afford to buy everything I want.

Other companies are welcome to price their gak at whatever they like, and people will judge the value on its merits. Yes, I can look at a $100 kit for terrain at a local shop and say "I'd rather have a DF add on with fewer pieces that are practically indestructible", but that's my choice as a consumer to weigh out the pros and cons of a given product. Looking up Manorhouse as you recommend, it looks very nice, it's also expensive, and given their references to shipping securely, seems fragile. Just because it's 'gaming terrain' doesn't make it an apples to apples comparison.

And that's probably enough about...that now.

Back on topic - the topic being the "Dwarven Forge - KS 4 - Castles" thread.

Oh gak, it's the fuzz, everyone act natural! >.>

DF has released another update, which includes a link to a video that shows them setting up the massive castle they've been using for a lot of their promotional images/videos. Apparently it took about 10 hours, including time spent doing other things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08EFKx82JJA

I'm tempted to replace the generic 'epic music' with yakkity sax.

Neat video. So many pieces involved! It's like some of those insanity inducing Lego builds.

Yakkity Sax also seems like way more appropriate music.

It had to be done.

http://www.youdubber.com/index.php?video=08EFKx82JJA&video_start=5&audio=ZnHmskwqCCQ&audio_start=0

They've also released some add ons, including one with Battlements based on the size of the tier, and a 'turn the grand citadel towers into freestanding towers' add on.

One of the things I like about these campaigns is that DF will not only take suggestions/critique, but actively seek suggestions out to improve what people get for their contributions. Obvoiusly between a couple thousand people they can't account for *everything*, but they do try.

wow, 10 hours. Looks great, but I'd be really scared I'd knock half of it over in the middle of a game. How well do the pieces stick together?

The castle looks great, but I think what really ties it together are the roads and houses. One thing I always disliked in wargames is having road or river pieces that are higher than the ground next to it. Always feels like it should be the other way around.