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 CrownAxe wrote:
"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit"

All that this means is that you don't determine whether or not you score a hit by rolling a die and comparing the result to [7 - BS of the firing model].

Again, letter vs. spirit of the law. Use common sense.

How am i suppose to trigger an ability "reroll misses on to hit rolls" whem I do not roll to hit?

 CrownAxe wrote:
"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit"

How am i suppose to trigger an ability "reroll misses on to hit rolls" whem I do not roll to hit?

Again, read the rule cited by Charistoph. It's very clear. The way that you are interpreting it is: "If this model has the ability to reroll in absolutely any circumstances (whether it rolls a 1, a 2 or for any miss), then I can reroll the scatter dice."

What the rule more obviously is intended to say is: "If you otherwise would have the ability to reroll a miss to hit, you can reroll the scatter dice."

Again, for all intents and purposes, the scatter dice is a to hit roll, even if it's not explicitly called one in the rules. Here is the common sense way to do this:

1. Place the template.
2. Roll the scatter dice.
3. Check to see if you score any hits.

If you score no hits, then you have, for all intents and purposes, scored a "miss" on your to-hit roll. If this is the case, then:

4. Determine whether you can reroll. You may reroll if and only if:

A. A rule says that you can reroll one or more missed hits.
B. A rule says that you can reroll the scatter dice.

I don't understand how you can ignore the rules as written when it comes "reroll missed to hit rolls" but when you get to PE you get all technical and abuse RAW to make PE not work.

Also you keep quoting Christoph but he is on my side of the argument.

 CrownAxe wrote:
I don't understand how you can ignore the rules as written when it comes "reroll missed to hit rolls"

Again, read the blast rule cited by Charistoph. Basically what it says is that the scatter dice roll, for all intents and purposes, counts as a to hits roll:

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

If we accept your interpretation of the blast rules (i.e., that they do not, in any sense, roll to hit), then this rule is self-contradictory: "If a model has the ability to reroll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so (i.e., reroll its roll To Hit, WHICH IT CANNOT DO, BY THE WAY), the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2d6."

My interpretation, at least, has the advantage of not turning the rule into a self-contradiction: "If a model has the ability to reroll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so (i.e., reroll its roll To Hit), the player must reroll the scatter dice and the 2d6 (because these are, for all intents and purposes, the To Hit roll for a blast weapon)."

but when you get to PE you get all technical and abuse RAW to make PE not work.

There are two and precisely two rules that you are citing to say that I'm not letting PE work insofar as RAW is concerned:

1. PE says that you can reroll 1s.
2. The blast rule says that if a model has the ability to reroll, it can reroll the scatter dice.

I'm not the one abusing RAW. You people are the ones torturing language and failing to apply common sense/context/etc. to the rules.

Nothing in the game has the ability to re-roll To Hit. everything in the game only has the ability to reroll misses to hit.

You keep trying to ignore the facts and make the excuse "oh just use common sense" but thats not how YMDC works. If you want to keep making that excuse you don't belong in YMDC, go somewhere else.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Nothing in the game has the ability to re-roll To Hit. everything in the game only has the ability to reroll misses to hit.

You keep trying to ignore the facts and make the excuse "oh just use common sense" but thats not how YMDC works. If you want to keep making that excuse you don't belong in YMDC, go somewhere else.

"If a model has the ability to reroll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2d6."

Explain why this rule isn't either a self-contradiction, or, at the very least, completely vacuous. If you can't, then you must concede the argument.

Because if you define "the ability to reroll its rolls to hit" as simply "a rule that can reroll to hit" and not "an effect triggered by specifically rolling to hit" then the rule actually works.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Because if you define "the ability to reroll its rolls to hit" as simply "a rule that can reroll to hit" and not "an effect triggered by specifically rolling to hit" then the rule actually works.

That's not an answer to my challenge. The rule says, and I quote it again:

"If a model has the ability to reroll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2d6."

Either:

1. This rule either is vacuous or self-contradictory.

or

2. Blast weapons roll To Hit, even though their roll To Hit does not consist in rolling a d6 and comparing it to [7 - BS of the firing model].

I'll take the latter alternative.

Those aren't the only options

 CrownAxe wrote:
Those aren't the only options

Those are the only options. The rule literally says that a unit which can reroll To Hit and is firing a blast weapon may opt to do this, i.e., reroll To Hit.

Therefore, either:

1. This rule is vacuous, since models which fire blast weapons do not roll To Hit

Or

2. This rule is not vacuous, and blast weapons do indeed roll To Hit, albeit not in the way that non-blast weapons do.

This is literally the law of the excluded middle. Either models which fire Blast Weapons DO or DO NOT roll To Hit.

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Because if you define "the ability to reroll its rolls to hit" as simply "a rule that can reroll to hit" and not "an effect triggered by specifically rolling to hit" then the rule actually works.

That's not an answer to my challenge. The rule says, and I quote it again:

"If a model has the ability to reroll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2d6."

Either:

1. This rule either is vacuous or self-contradictory.

or

2. Blast weapons roll To Hit, even though their roll To Hit does not consist in rolling a d6 and comparing it to [7 - BS of the firing model].

I'll take the latter alternative.

Or more likely the purpose of this sentence you quoted is more along the lines of "if it chooses to use this ability to reroll To-Hit, it will also affect this situation which does not roll To-Hit, but has its own random dice roll and so is allowed to reroll the whole set".

If you want to talk about implications, we can go all day long.

Charistoph wrote:Or more likely the purpose of this sentence you quoted is more along the lines of "if it chooses to use this ability to reroll To-Hit, it will also affect this situation which does not roll To-Hit, but has its own random dice roll and so is allowed to reroll the whole set".

If you want to talk about implications, we can go all day long.

Except, that fails to account for the key phrase "to do so." To do what?

Traditio wrote:

Charistoph wrote:Or more likely the purpose of this sentence you quoted is more along the lines of "if it chooses to use this ability to reroll To-Hit, it will also affect this situation which does not roll To-Hit, but has its own random dice roll and so is allowed to reroll the whole set".

If you want to talk about implications, we can go all day long.

Except, that fails to account for the key phrase "to do so." To do what?

Use common sense silly

CrownAxe wrote:Use common sense silly

"Common sense" says that "To do so" refers to re-rolling To Hit.

Basically, Charistoph's interpretation of the passage makes it say this:

"If a model has the ability to reroll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so (i.e., reroll its roll To Hit, WHICH IT CANNOT DO, BY THE WAY), the player may do something which has NOTHING to do with rolls To Hit."

In academic philosophy, there is a commonly received axiom that when we respond to the philosophical position of someone else, we should respond to them based on the most charitable and reasonable interpretation of their words.

The choice between my interpretation and your interpretation of the rules is the choice between sense and nonsense.

I'll take sense over nonsense any day of the week, Trebek. I'll take sense for 1000, Trebek!

So why then is "reroll misses to hit" so special and "reroll 1s to hit" is not?

 CrownAxe wrote:
So why then is "reroll misses to hit" so special and "reroll 1s to hit" is not?

I don't believe I've said anything of the sort. What I've consistently maintained is that blast weapons roll To Hit, namely, by placing a template and rolling scatter dice. What they do not do is roll To Hit dice (i.e., rolling 1d6 and comparing the result to [7 - BS of the firing model]).

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
So why then is "reroll misses to hit" so special and "reroll 1s to hit" is not?

I don't believe I've said anything of the sort. What I've consistently maintained is that blast weapons roll To Hit, namely, by placing a template and rolling scatter dice. What they do not do is roll To Hit dice (i.e., rolling 1d6 and comparing the result to [7 - BS of the firing model]).

"Reroll missed To Hit rolls" also only care about To Hit dice

Traditio wrote:

Charistoph wrote:Or more likely the purpose of this sentence you quoted is more along the lines of "if it chooses to use this ability to reroll To-Hit, it will also affect this situation which does not roll To-Hit, but has its own random dice roll and so is allowed to reroll the whole set".

If you want to talk about implications, we can go all day long.

Except, that fails to account for the key phrase "to do so." To do what?

Use common sense and align the interpretation to its coinciding position of the actual rule.

To Do What? To use its ability. It cannot use its ability normally, so the rule then refers to how it actually works in this specific case. See? Common sense.

Going back to your earlier response:

Traditio wrote:

Charistoph wrote:Here is what the Blast rules state about Rerolls:

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

I wish to note the following about what you've quoted:

1. The rule says: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon..." What is the referent of "so"? If a model chooses to do what after firing a blast weapon? To get the referent of "so," we need to back up to a previous part of the sentence: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit..." So, after a model fires its blast weapon, if it has the ability to do so, it may re-roll its its rolls To Hit.

I deduce from this that, according to GW, there is a definite sense in which a model firing a blast weapon rolls To Hit. This was more explicit in 5th edition. In 5th edition, you centered the blast over an enemy model and then actually rolled to hit. This changed in 6th edition, where the to-hit roll for a blast weapon became a roll of the scatter dice.

Point to take away from this: blast weapons roll to-hit according to the rules, and that roll To Hit is the rolling of the scatter dice.

This would be a false assumption as it is based on only the data presented in this quote. It is ignoring the context provided by the previous sections of the Blast Rules.

First off, Blasts do not roll To-Hit, this is established in the beginning of its rules, as already stated. by CrownAxe.

Second, Blasts DO have a roll, but it is used to determine where the blast template is finally located. All models under this template are considered to be Hit per the rules in General Principles regarding Blasts and Templates.

Traditio wrote:
2. The rule says: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit..." In order to reroll the scatter dice, you must have the ability to reroll. As I've pointed out repeatedly, preferred enemy does not grant this. It specifically permits re-rolls to a to-hit result of 1.

So are you saying that a To Hit Roll of 1, is not a To Hit Roll? That is the only way that this point has merit. However, this point is complete and utter nonsense. No differentiation in this section considers a specific level of fail to be different from any other fail. So, yeah... Preferred Enemy and Twin-linked are equal levels at this point.

Traditio wrote:

The underlined establishes the relationship between Blasts rerolls and Gets Hot rerolls, as they follow the same standards.

No, they don't. The rule that you cited specifically goes on to talk about weapons (i.e., blast weapons) that do not roll To Hit in the ordinary way. Again, see the bolded.

Actually it does. The phrase which starts both and it is based on "if". How can they not have the same standards?
Gets Hot!

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

Blast

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

See? Both start with the exact same same conditions, so they operate under the same standards. What they DO is different, of course, but has little bearing on what causes them to be applied.

Traditio wrote:

To-Hit Dice are used when To-Hit Rolls are made.

To Hit dice are used when To Hit rolls are made for non-blast weapons. When blast weapons are used, the scatter dice are used instead, and 1d6 is rolled prior to rolling the scatter dice in order to determine gets hot results. Again, read the rules that you yourself cited.

I have no idea what you are even going on about here. I think you are trying to argue something which is not even really a point.

Traditio wrote:

Attacks using one of the templates do not roll To-Hit, therefore no To-Hit Dice are used.

Templates, as defined in the 40k rulebook, i.e., flamers, don't roll To Hit in any sense at all.

Blasts use the Small Blast marker, the Large Blast marker, or the Apocalyptic Blast marker. In times past, they were also called templates. Some habits die hard..

Traditio wrote:

Instead, both Gets Hot and Blasts allow for rerolls of their condition when To-Hit rolls are not possible

Again, read the initial rule that you cited. The rule explicitly says that there is a sense in which blast weapons roll To Hit.

Once again, apply common sense when reading and interpreting the rules.

Yes, apply common sense. Whatever sense you think may be there is pointless when just looking at it from a pure written standpoint. A To Hit Roll of 1, is still a To Hit Roll. Rerolling that is just as conditional as rerolling a miss from Twin-Linked. It is not as easy, but it is still just as conditional.

Traditio wrote:

A pointless endeavor to this response, as it was simply stating that the perspective on Preferred Enemy is the same as for Twin-Linked, as they are both contingent on failure to apply a reroll. Preferred Enemy's reroll is just more specific. That is all. I was not taking sides on the debate itself, just clarifying the relationships.

Preferred enemy says that you can reroll 1s to hit.
Twin-link says that you may reroll all misses.

The rules don't say the same thing.

Didn't say they said the same thing. I said that they were both equally conditional on a type of failure. To Hit Rolls of 1 are failures. Misses are failures. Keep up.

Traditio wrote:
Once again, a simple grasp of the simpliciter vs. relative distinction works wonders here.

As if this was a standard in the game.

Did no one pick up traditio making the extraordinary claim that in 5th edition blast weapons rolled to hit? Despite this being complete and utter gak?

Traditio - the "to do so " is "use the ability to Reroll their to hit"

Note this phrase is utterly unconditional. It does not care under what circumstances you can Reroll to hit, it just requires that you have this ability

And no, I utterly dismiss your contention that the scatter is the "roll to hit". It isn't it explicitly is not a roll to hit, as you are told this. Your entire argument seems to hang from this utterly wrong assumption, meaning it is likely your conclusion is also wrong. Which it is

Stop going on about "common sense" and insulting those who are able to read the actual rules correctly.

You deny that bs6+ grants a Reroll to hit, yet p164 "gets hit and rerolls" utterly destroys your argument. And bs6+ has EXACTLY the same conditional as pe. Exactly. That you roll a one to hit.

Your insults are noted. They reduce your credibility.

Can we lock this thread before people start on the whole PF re-rolling blast nonsense that will turn into a 10 page ramble of 2 views and insults.

What everyone will agree on is you do get to re-roll the one for the gets hot roll and that is all this thread will accomplish.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did no one pick up traditio making the extraordinary claim that in 5th edition blast weapons rolled to hit? Despite this being complete and utter gak?

Traditio - the "to do so " is "use the ability to Reroll their to hit"

Note this phrase is utterly unconditional. It does not care under what circumstances you can Reroll to hit, it just requires that you have this ability

And no, I utterly dismiss your contention that the scatter is the "roll to hit". It isn't it explicitly is not a roll to hit, as you are told this. Your entire argument seems to hang from this utterly wrong assumption, meaning it is likely your conclusion is also wrong. Which it is

Stop going on about "common sense" and insulting those who are able to read the actual rules correctly.

You deny that bs6+ grants a Reroll to hit, yet p164 "gets hit and rerolls" utterly destroys your argument. And bs6+ has EXACTLY the same conditional as pe. Exactly. That you roll a one to hit.

Your insults are noted. They reduce your credibility.

So we get to re-roll blasts if we have PE even while not fighting the specified PE faction right ? or do you just enforce one set of conditions but not the other ? I mean if i have PE eldar and i fire on imperials troops , i have the ability to re-roll .

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did no one pick up traditio making the extraordinary claim that in 5th edition blast weapons rolled to hit? Despite this being complete and utter gak?

I did notice that, but I wanted to double check against my Black Reach book before addressing it directly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did no one pick up traditio making the extraordinary claim that in 5th edition blast weapons rolled to hit? Despite this being complete and utter gak?

5th edition rulebook, p. 30. I quote: "Blast Weapons...When you fire a blast weapon roll to hit as normal; if the shot misses it has no effect. If a hit is scored take the blast marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected. Models whose bases are partially covered by the marker are hit on a D6 roll of 4 or more, models whose bases are completely covered are hit automatically...""

Traditio - the "to do so " is "use the ability to Reroll their to hit"

Therefore blast weapons roll To Hit. You cannot use an ability to reroll To Hit if you cannot roll To Hit. That's literally a tautology.

Note this phrase is utterly unconditional. It does not care under what circumstances you can Reroll to hit, it just requires that you have this ability

PE grants you the ability if and only if you roll a 1. If you do not roll a 1, you do not have the ability to reroll to hit.

And no, I utterly dismiss your contention that the scatter is the "roll to hit". It isn't it explicitly is not a roll to hit, as you are told this.

Equivocation. You're equivocating on two obviously different senses of "To Hit." The blast rule I cited essentially says that blast weapons roll To Hit in some sense.

You deny that bs6+ grants a Reroll to hit, yet p164 "gets hit and rerolls" utterly destroys your argument. And bs6+ has EXACTLY the same conditional as pe.

This is just obviously wrong. You do not reroll for BS 6 if you are using a blast weapon. You deduct 6 inches.

Charistoph wrote:Use common sense and align the interpretation to its coinciding position of the actual rule.

"To do so" clearly refers to using the ability to reroll To Hit. Therefore, blast weapons roll To Hit, albeit not by a comparison of a dice roll to [7 - BS of the firing unit].

That's the most obvious sense of the text.

To Do What? To use its ability.

What ability? You mean, the ability to reroll To Hit?

It cannot use its ability normally, so the rule then refers to how it actually works in this specific case. See? Common sense.

I completely agree with this. You are simply failing to understand the implications of this. Since it cannot use its ability normally (namely, by rolling a die and comparing the result to [7 - the BS of the firing unit], it uses its ability to roll To Hit in the way appropriate to blast weapons, namely, by rolling the scatter dice. You may reroll to Hit if and only if you otherwise could have rerolled to Hit under normal circumstances, namely, either by missing (in the case of twin link) or by rolling a 1 (in the case of PE), the latter of which does not and cannot occur for blast weapons.

Going back to your earlier response:

This would be a false assumption as it is based on only the data presented in this quote. It is ignoring the context provided by the previous sections of the Blast Rules.

First off, Blasts do not roll To-Hit, this is established in the beginning of its rules, as already stated. by CrownAxe.

Again, your reply is based on an equivocation of the term "To Hit."

Second, Blasts DO have a roll, but it is used to determine where the blast template is finally located. All models under this template are considered to be Hit per the rules in General Principles regarding Blasts and Templates.

Yes. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, that scatter dice roll is a roll To Hit.

Traditio wrote:So are you saying that a To Hit Roll of 1, is not a To Hit Roll?

It is a To Hit roll, but you have the ability to make it if and only if you roll a 1. It's that simple.

Actually it does. The phrase which starts both and it is based on "if". How can they not have the same standards?

Because they both start with the same sort of language, therefore, they both refer to the same thing?

Uh...no.

That's just a complete non-sequitur.

Let's actually read what you are quoting:

Gets Hot!

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

I don't see anything problematic with this. If you are rolling a non-blast shooting attack, you use the To-Hit dice as the gets hot roll. If you are rolling a blast or a firing a template which Gets Hot, then you roll a separate 1d6.

Blast

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

See? Both start with the exact same same conditions, so they operate under the same standards. What they DO is different, of course, but has little bearing on what causes them to be applied.

Again, complete non-sequitur.

Yes, apply common sense. Whatever sense you think may be there is pointless when just looking at it from a pure written standpoint. A To Hit Roll of 1, is still a To Hit Roll.

I agree. And you have the ability to make that roll if and only if you roll a 1. Period.

AT ANY RATE:

Further discussion of this point is a waste of time. At this point, we are basically just making the same arguments. I briefly summarize the arguments on both sides:

My opponents argue:

1. The blast rule says that if a model otherwise has the ability to reroll To Hit, it may reroll the scatter dice.
2. PE grants an ability to reroll To Hit.
3. Therefore, PE grants the ability to reroll the scatter dice, regardless of whether or not a 1 is rolled.

I argue:

1. PE grants an ability to reroll To Hit if and only if a 1 is rolled.
2. A 1 cannot be rolled on the scatter die.
3. Therefore, PE does not grant the ability to reroll the scatter dice for a blast weapon.

The practical import for the OP:

There are different opinions on this matter, but here's the deal:

If I were playing against you, I would permit you to reroll your scatter dice for any rule that says "You may reroll To Hit" without qualification (twin link, guide, prescience, etc). I would not permit you to reroll your scatter dice with preferred enemy or any other rule that says you can reroll To Hit if you roll a 1 (since that's not a possible result on the scatter die).

If you insisted on rerolling the scatter dice using PE or some similar rule, I would do one of two things:

1. Call the game there and refuse to play further.
2. Finish the game, but refuse to play you again.

Fact is, the opinion of my opponents is a rules-lawyering, WAAC TFG interpretation, an interpretation which flies in the face of common sense, and I would consider you to be such a person if you insisted on reading the rules that way. I would mentally begin to associate you with feminine hygiene products.

I strongly recommend asking your opponent his opinion of the rules, offering the arguments for both sides, and letting him or her make the decision for the purposes of that game. If you're playing in a tournament, ask the TO in advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kambien wrote:
So we get to re-roll blasts if we have PE even while not fighting the specified PE faction right ? or do you just enforce one set of conditions but not the other ? I mean if i have PE eldar and i fire on imperials troops , i have the ability to re-roll .

This is basically what follows from their arguments. PE: Eldar grants the ability to reroll. The fact that you are playing against Imperial Guard is irrelevent! You have the ability to reroll!

As I said, it's a stupid argument dreamed up by WAAC TFGs. These people read the 40k rulebook like protestants read the Bible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd like to add, finally, to reiterate:

I would actually benefit if they are correct.

1. Pedro Kantor is my warlord; he grants my entire enemy Preferred Enemy: Orks. Therefore, all of my blast weapons, according to them, have the ability to reroll, regardless of whether I'm playing against Orks or not.

2. I play a gladius strike force.

I have 8 missile launchers (devastators) and 3 plasma cannons (tactical squads) in my army (not even to mention the fact that pretty much everyone in my army is armed with frag grenades; also did I mention that Pedro Kantor can use an orbital strike?). According to them, I can reroll frag blasts using tactical doctrine and plasma cannons using devastator doctrine. And even if I'm not playing against Orks and elect not to use a combat doctrine, I can reroll these things anyways since I have PE: Orks!

Which sounds great, of course, except for one unfortunate fact:

It's completely ridiculous.

Reading this threat hurts my eyes and I fear im just throwing gasoline into the fire but Im bored so ill put this breakdown into the mix. It seems to me that the major hangup is on the conditions of what allows rerolls to hit. Ill list the five cases that come to mind following this format using a BS3 guardsmen shooting a missile launcher.
Special Rule/Ability | Can Reroll to Hit | Required Condition

Krak Missile
No Special Rule | Cannot reroll to hit | Cannot reroll to hit
Twin Linked | Can Reroll to Hit | Fail to hit
Prescience | Can Reroll to Hit | Fail to hit
Preferred Enemy | Can Reroll to Hit | Roll a 1
Ammo Runt | Can Reroll to Hit | None

Frag Missile
No Special Rule | Cannot reroll to hit | Cannot reroll to hit
Twin Linked | Can Reroll to Hit | Fail to hit (Specifically stated in the rules for blast weapons)
Prescience | Can Reroll to Hit | Fail to hit
Preferred Enemy | Can Reroll to Hit | Roll a 1
Ammo Runt | Can Reroll to Hit | None

Going by absolute RAW in the most strict of interpretations on conditions only Twin Linked and Ammo Runt can reroll the blast because the Ammo Runt meats the requirement of "Reroll to hit" without any conditions while Twin Linked is specifically called out in the rules as being able to reroll blast scatters dice.

If you go by wording of being able to reroll to hit means there is some ability to reroll to hit then you can then include Prescience and Preferred Enemy because both of these rules have requirements that have to be met. There is no middle ground that allows Prescience to reroll scatters but not Preferred Enemy because both are conditional. Blast Weapons do not roll to hit by RAW in the BRB. The question is how you interpret "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit". If you really want to throw more gasoline into the mix you can also look at BS 6+ because it would allow you to reroll 1s to hit with a new set of rolls.

Edit: Cleaned up the rule for Twin Linked and Prescience to more accurately state their conditions

Vankraken wrote:There is no middle ground that allows Prescience to reroll scatters but not Preferred Enemy because both are conditional.

They're conditional on different things. Prescience and guide are conditional on missing. PE is conditional on rolling a 1.

You can miss with a blast weapon.
You cannot roll a 1 on the scatter die. It's impossible.

If you really want to throw more gasoline into the mix you can also look at BS 6+ because it would allow you to reroll 1s to hit with a new set of rolls.

This point's already been made.

I tell you guys what:

If you guys are firing a blast weapon with someone who has BS 6+, I'll permit you to reroll the scatter dice. However, I'll only grant that a hit has occurred if you've rolled the necessary number on the re-rolled scatter die. Thus, you will have hit with the BS 6 reroll if and only if you roll a 6 on the rerolled scatter die (which is impossible, by the way).

Otherwise, I'll insist that you simply deduct your BS from the scatter distance (if you have LOS).

Traditio wrote:

Vankraken wrote:There is no middle ground that allows Prescience to reroll scatters but not Preferred Enemy because both are conditional.

They're conditional on different things. Prescience and guide are conditional on missing. PE is conditional on rolling a 1.

You can miss with a blast weapon.
You cannot roll a 1 on the scatter die. It's impossible.

Prescience can reroll all failed to hit rolls. You don't roll to hit with blast so you can't fail it thus you can't meet the condition of Prescience. Technically because your not rolling to hit with Gets Hot blast weapons you can't reroll those results because you didn't fail a To Hit roll to meet the Prescience condition.

This is how things get really messing when you look at everything under the RAW microscope about what constitutes having the ability to reroll to hit.

Vankraken wrote:Prescience can reroll all failed to hit rolls.

Again, for the thousandth time, stop being such a protestant about this, and use common sense:

1. For all intents and purposes, the rolling of the scatter dice is the To Hit roll for a blast weapon.
2. It is possible to fail to hit with a blast weapon once you have rolled the scatter dice.
3. It is NOT possible to roll a 1 (or a 6, for that matter) on the scatter die.

Technically

If you have to start your sentences with "technically," expect eye rolls and refusals to play with you. It's that simple.

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Even if you do play Orks, which is totally awesome.

Traditio, do Blasts roll To Hit, yes or no?

If yes, you are lying, as the rules unequivocally state that rolling Scatter is not a To Hit roll.

If you do not roll To Hit, how can you fail a To Hit roll (as required by almost every re-roll ability)?