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Hello guys,

As the title implies I am a bit unsure as to how this actually plays.

The preferred enemy rule confers a reroll of '1' when rolling to Hit and to Wound.

However, when firing Plasma blast weaponry from vehicles the BRB says that you roll a seperate dice and if it is '1' you roll a further D6 and on a 4+ you dont lose a Hull point.

The way I interpret this is that with the Preferred Enemy rule you get to reroll the scatter dice and then the to Wound dice. There is no way of preventing the Gets hot rolls.

Help needed guys.

Thanks in advance.

Gets hits and rerolls. Covers this explicitly.

Rerolls section at the start of the rulebook also makes it clear that when you roll a dice you might be entitled to a reroll, and that when you reroll that is the result that counts, the previous result is basically ignored.

PE does not let you reroll the blast template scatter, because it does not roll to hit. It does however allow you to reroll the gets hot roll of a 1.

I dont have the BRB in front of me for the page number, but it is under the special rules for gets hot and rerolls.

 Tenzilla wrote:
PE does not let you reroll the blast template scatter, because it does not roll to hit. It does however allow you to reroll the gets hot roll of a 1.

I dont have the BRB in front of me for the page number, but it is under the special rules for gets hot and rerolls.

Blasts and rerolls disagrees with you. You only need the ABILITY to reroll to hit. You dont need to actually roll to hit - which is handy, becuse noone rolls to hit with a blast weapon. If your stance were correct, only twinlining would work.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tenzilla wrote:
PE does not let you reroll the blast template scatter, because it does not roll to hit. It does however allow you to reroll the gets hot roll of a 1.

I dont have the BRB in front of me for the page number, but it is under the special rules for gets hot and rerolls.

Blasts and rerolls disagrees with you. You only need the ABILITY to reroll to hit. You dont need to actually roll to hit - which is handy, becuse noone rolls to hit with a blast weapon. If your stance were correct, only twinlining would work.

Well see. This presents a problem. If Preferred enemy grants you the ability to reroll to scatter.

Then a gets hot roll always gets hot on a 1 with no reroll, because in the event of Plasma Canons (of all types) The gets hot roll is Not a To Hit roll, it's a separate roll specifically instructed for you to make prior to shooting.

Either the gets hot roll is your "to hit roll" for the purposes of preferred enemy, or the template scatter is. Not both.

Preferred Enemy does not allow a reroll of scatter dice. We've been through this so many times before. It is pretty clearly explained in the sections about scatter dice and not rolling to hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tenzilla wrote:
PE does not let you reroll the blast template scatter, because it does not roll to hit. It does however allow you to reroll the gets hot roll of a 1.

I dont have the BRB in front of me for the page number, but it is under the special rules for gets hot and rerolls.

Blasts and rerolls disagrees with you. You only need the ABILITY to reroll to hit. You dont need to actually roll to hit - which is handy, becuse noone rolls to hit with a blast weapon. If your stance were correct, only twinlining would work.

Well see. This presents a problem. If Preferred enemy grants you the ability to reroll to scatter.

Then a gets hot roll always gets hot on a 1 with no reroll, because in the event of Plasma Canons (of all types) The gets hot roll is Not a To Hit roll, it's a separate roll specifically instructed for you to make prior to shooting.

Either the gets hot roll is your "to hit roll" for the purposes of preferred enemy, or the template scatter is. Not both, it would be the same situation for twin linked.

Ffyllotek wrote:Preferred Enemy does not allow a reroll of scatter dice. We've been through this so many times before. It is pretty clearly explained in the sections about scatter dice and not rolling to hit.

Incorrect> Well, half right - we have been through this before, and have proven time and again that PE DOES allow a reroll of scatter, because it provides the ABILITY to reroll your to hit. WE know this for a fact, as it is even mentioned in the GH! section that PE grants the ability to reroll to hit

SO I wont go there again, however the proof is there, to see for all. It only requires you to entirely ignore the word "abilty" and think it means "you've actually rolled to hit, even though you dont ever roll to hit with a blast, making this entire rule utterly useless" to come to another conclusion

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tenzilla wrote:
PE does not let you reroll the blast template scatter, because it does not roll to hit. It does however allow you to reroll the gets hot roll of a 1.

I dont have the BRB in front of me for the page number, but it is under the special rules for gets hot and rerolls.

Blasts and rerolls disagrees with you. You only need the ABILITY to reroll to hit. You dont need to actually roll to hit - which is handy, becuse noone rolls to hit with a blast weapon. If your stance were correct, only twinlining would work.

Well see. This presents a problem. If Preferred enemy grants you the ability to reroll to scatter.

Then a gets hot roll always gets hot on a 1 with no reroll, because in the event of Plasma Canons (of all types) The gets hot roll is Not a To Hit roll, it's a separate roll specifically instructed for you to make prior to shooting.

Either the gets hot roll is your "to hit roll" for the purposes of preferred enemy, or the template scatter is. Not both, it would be the same situation for twin linked.

Have you read the section on gets hot and rerolls?

You have 2 rolls with a PC; one for gets hot, one to see if it scatters and if so, how far

The first gets a reroll if you roll a 1, due to PE.
The second get s areroll, due to PE

This has been done to death, and proven so many times it gets dull.

Can we lock this thread before people start on the whole PF re-rolling blast nonsense that will turn into a 10 page ramble of 2 views and insults.

What everyone will agree on is you do get to re-roll the one for the gets hot roll and that is all this thread will accomplish.

Before it gets locked I dont understand.....

Do you only get to reroll the scatter if you roll a 1 for gets hot?

Or do you always get to reroll scatter for PE?

I must have missed this thread before. Because I was only aware of the reroll of the gets hot roll.

You always get to Reroll, because blasts and rerolls only cared about the ABILITY to Reroll, not how good or any other condition placed on the Reroll.

Note this is not the same as saying you get to Reroll when not firing at your pe; there you have no ability.

 Tenzilla wrote:
Before it gets locked I dont understand.....

Do you only get to reroll the scatter if you roll a 1 for gets hot?

Or do you always get to reroll scatter for PE?

I must have missed this thread before. Because I was only aware of the reroll of the gets hot roll.

They're not linked at all.

* You want to fire a blast weapon.
* You roll a D6, on a 1 it Gets Hot! - If you have the ability to reroll, you may do so.
* Assuming you did not get a Gets Hot! result, you now place your blast marker and roll for Scatter - if it misses, you may reroll the entire thing, if you have the ability to reroll.

The "link" between these two is only in the argument that if PE is a valid "ability to reroll" in one case, it should be the same for the other case.

Very interesting. Ive never heard it argued that way before. Or even considered that. So executioner LRBTs just got better in my book.

 Sieggfried wrote:
Hello guys,

As the title implies I am a bit unsure as to how this actually plays.

The preferred enemy rule confers a reroll of '1' when rolling to Hit and to Wound.

However, when firing Plasma blast weaponry from vehicles the BRB says that you roll a seperate dice and if it is '1' you roll a further D6 and on a 4+ you dont lose a Hull point.

The way I interpret this is that with the Preferred Enemy rule you get to reroll the scatter dice and then the to Wound dice. There is no way of preventing the Gets hot rolls.

Help needed guys.

Thanks in advance.

The "re-roll 1 to hit" allows you to re-roll the gets hot roll. It does not, however, allow you to reroll the scatter dice. In fact, why would you want to? If you roll the scatter dice and get double 1s, that's the next- best result after a direct hit.

Twin-linking, however, does allow you to reroll the scatter die if you end up completely missing.

Traditio- reread blast and rerolls, and gets hot and rerolls. You only need the ability, not actually roll to hit. Because you can never roll to hit.

nekooni wrote:

 Tenzilla wrote:
Before it gets locked I dont understand.....

Do you only get to reroll the scatter if you roll a 1 for gets hot?

Or do you always get to reroll scatter for PE?

I must have missed this thread before. Because I was only aware of the reroll of the gets hot roll.

They're not linked at all.

* You want to fire a blast weapon.
* You roll a D6, on a 1 it Gets Hot! - If you have the ability to reroll, you may do so.
* Assuming you did not get a Gets Hot! result, you now place your blast marker and roll for Scatter - if it misses, you may reroll the entire thing, if you have the ability to reroll.

The "link" between these two is only in the argument that if PE is a valid "ability to reroll" in one case, it should be the same for the other case.

Correct. As the rules clearly explain, PE doesn't qualify for this because it is not possible to reroll a to hit score of one, when there is no to hit with a blast. The re-rolls and scatter is explained well.

Ffyllotek wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Tenzilla wrote:
Before it gets locked I dont understand.....

Do you only get to reroll the scatter if you roll a 1 for gets hot?

Or do you always get to reroll scatter for PE?

I must have missed this thread before. Because I was only aware of the reroll of the gets hot roll.

They're not linked at all.

* You want to fire a blast weapon.
* You roll a D6, on a 1 it Gets Hot! - If you have the ability to reroll, you may do so.
* Assuming you did not get a Gets Hot! result, you now place your blast marker and roll for Scatter - if it misses, you may reroll the entire thing, if you have the ability to reroll.

The "link" between these two is only in the argument that if PE is a valid "ability to reroll" in one case, it should be the same for the other case.

Correct. As the rules clearly explain, PE doesn't qualify for this because it is not possible to reroll a to hit score of one, when there is no to hit with a blast. The re-rolls and scatter is explained well.

So the only thing you allow to re-roll scatter is twin-linked and ammo runts?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Traditio- reread blast and rerolls, and gets hot and rerolls. You only need the ability, not actually roll to hit. Because you can never roll to hit.

I'm confused. What precisely did I say with which you disagree?

Traditio wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Traditio- reread blast and rerolls, and gets hot and rerolls. You only need the ability, not actually roll to hit. Because you can never roll to hit.

I'm confused. What precisely did I say with which you disagree?

That the ability to re-roll your To hit rolls (of 1) does not allow you to re-roll scatter.

Traditio wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Traditio- reread blast and rerolls, and gets hot and rerolls. You only need the ability, not actually roll to hit. Because you can never roll to hit.

I'm confused. What precisely did I say with which you disagree?

IT doesn't matter what you roll to scatter, PE lets you reroll the scatter die by virtue of having the ability.

Happyjew wrote:That the ability to re-roll your To hit rolls (of 1) does not allow you to re-roll scatter.

Why on earth would you reroll a 1 on the scatter die?

Traditio wrote:

Happyjew wrote:That the ability to re-roll your To hit rolls (of 1) does not allow you to re-roll scatter.

Why on earth would you reroll a 1 on the scatter die?

You don't reroll just the d6 that was a 1, you don't even need to roll a 1. You reroll the whole thing (both d6s and the scatter die)

 CrownAxe wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Happyjew wrote:That the ability to re-roll your To hit rolls (of 1) does not allow you to re-roll scatter.

Why on earth would you reroll a 1 on the scatter die?

You don't reroll just the d6 that was a 1, you don't even need to roll a 1. You reroll the whole thing (both d6s and the scatter die)

Preferred enemy says that you reroll 1s to hit and to wound. For all intents and purpose, the roll of the scatter die is the roll to hit. Why would you roll a 1 on the scatter die?

Is there a specific section in the rulebook which makes an exception for rolls on the scatter die?

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Happyjew wrote:That the ability to re-roll your To hit rolls (of 1) does not allow you to re-roll scatter.

Why on earth would you reroll a 1 on the scatter die?

You don't reroll just the d6 that was a 1, you don't even need to roll a 1. You reroll the whole thing (both d6s and the scatter die)

Preferred enemy says that you reroll 1s to hit and to wound. For all intents and purpose, the roll of the scatter die is the roll to hit. Why would you roll a 1 on the scatter die?

Is there a specific section in the rulebook which makes an exception for rolls on the scatter die?

Yeah, Blasts and Re-rolls in the special rules for blasts. It says that you can reroll the scatter (which is the whole thing) if you have the ABILITY to reroll to hit. Prefferred Enemy is an ability to reroll so you can reroll scatter for blasts.

CrownAxe wrote:Yeah, Blasts and Re-rolls in the special rules for blasts. It says that you can reroll the scatter (which is the whole thing) if you have the ABILITY to reroll to hit. Prefferred Enemy is an ability to reroll so you can reroll scatter for blasts.

Simpliciter (simply speaking) vs. relative (in a certain context).

Preferred enemy is an ability to reroll relative, not simpliciter. Twin-link is an ability to reroll simpliciter, i.e., simply speaking. Preferred enemy is not an ability to reroll simpliciter, but only relative, namely, if and only if you roll a 1 to hit.

Thus, I repeat my question:

Why on earth would you reroll a 1 on the scatter dice?

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Yeah, Blasts and Re-rolls in the special rules for blasts. It says that you can reroll the scatter (which is the whole thing) if you have the ABILITY to reroll to hit. Prefferred Enemy is an ability to reroll so you can reroll scatter for blasts.

Simpliciter (simply speaking) vs. relative (in a certain context).

Preferred enemy is an ability to reroll relative, not simpliciter. Twin-link is an ability to reroll simpliciter, i.e., simply speaking. Preferred enemy is not an ability to reroll simpliciter, but only relative, namely, if and only if you roll a 1 to hit.

Thus, I repeat my question:

Why on earth would you reroll a 1 on the scatter dice?

Blasts and Rerolls doesn't care how relative the ability is, just that you have an ability to reroll.

Also you can't bring Twin Linked into the discussion because it specifies in its own rule that it rerolls the scatter for blasts. It doesn't use the Blast and Re-rolls rule to reroll scatter.

The ability doesn't exist if you don't roll a one.

Martel732 wrote:
The ability doesn't exist if you don't roll a one.

Well this is the why the debate persists, GW never defined ability and what constitutes having one. This is pretty much the only time the rulebook ever uses the term ability in such context (if ever). We simply don't know if an ability is the rule itself or the effect from triggering the rule. Its another one of the many poorly written rules courtesy of GW. There is not clear answer one way or the other.

IMO simply having the rule constitutes as having an ability. For one its much easier to assume that "ability" is just being used as a synonym for special rule rather then the much more complicated and technical idea of having to trigger an effect by meeting certain conditions to have an ability (which is not consistent with the way GW writes rules).

Also if you treat Blast and Rerolls as having to trigger the ability to reroll, then almost nothing in the game actual works with Blast and Rerolls. Almost every form of reroll specifies rerolling misses (in the same way PE specifies rerolling 1s). As such more general rerolls like prescience also don't reroll scatter because as you said "The ability doesn't exist if you don't roll a miss". The only rule in the game that would work with Blast and Rerolls in the scenario is Ammo Runts because it can reroll regardless of the result (Twin Link doesn't apply because like i said previously it specifies it rerolls scatters). This results in a useless rule which is clearly not the intention, in order for the rule to actually work you have to let having the rule at all count as having the ability to reroll.

CrownAxe wrote:Blasts and Rerolls doesn't care how relative the ability is, just that you have an ability to reroll.

You have the ability to reroll if and only if you rolled a 1 to hit.

The most obvious way to understand this is as follows:

1. You may reroll the gets hot roll (since the gets hot rule specifically says that you can).
2. You may not reroll the scatter dice.

The only way that you can reroll the scatter dice is if you have an ability which specifically says that you can reroll the scatter dice in the event of any miss without qualification. Preferred enemy does not grant such an ability to reroll.

Thus, if I am using the devastator doctrine, my plasma cannon tac squads can reroll gets hot, but may not reroll the scatter die.
If, however, I am using the tactical doctrine, my plasma cannon tac squads can both reroll gets hot AND reroll the scatter die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe wrote:Well this is the why the debate persists, GW never defined ability and what constitutes having one.

This should be common sense. One has an ability or a power to do x if and only if one can do x. This is where knowledge of the Greek language and Aristotelian philosophy is helpful. A dunamis (a power, faculty or an ability; for example: sight (i.e., the ability to see) is a dunamis or a power which is ordered towards the further activity or actuality of actually seeing, i.e., seeing as an energeia or activity) is derived from the Greek dunamai, which means "I am able to do x or I can do x."

You have an ability to reroll your dice if and only if you can or are able to reroll your dice.

Here, I ask the question:

Preferred enemy says that you can reroll 1s to hit. You just rolled the scatter die. You missed and rolled two 4s. You do, however, have preferred enemy. You are wondering whether you have the ability to reroll. Simply ask yourself: "Can I reroll?" Now read the rule: "You can reroll 1s to hit." Now ask yourself: "Did you roll a 1 to hit?" You answer, of course, "No." Therefore, you may not reroll.

In principle, I suppose, you could argue that you could reroll 1s on the scatter dice (e.g., if you roll a 1 and a 5, then you could argue that you can reroll the 1). But again, I ask: why would you even want to?

Its another one of the many poorly written rules courtesy of GW. There is not clear answer one way or the other.

It's really not. A basic knowledge of Aristotelian physics and metaphysics, as well as the Greek language...er...scratch that, common sense clears up the issue quite readily.

IMO simply having the rule constitutes as having an ability.

It's not an ability to reroll without qualification. It's an ability to reroll 1s to hit and to wound. It's as though I told you that you could eat tacos, and then you purchased fried chicken, insisting that I told you that you could eat. You'd be omitting the key word "tacos."

For one its much easier to assume that "ability" is just being used as a synonym for special rule rather then the much more complicated and technical idea of having to trigger an effect by meeting certain conditions to have an ability (which is not consistent with the way GW writes rules)

"Ability" is simply the abstract noun form of the verbal phrase "I am able to." You have an ability if and only if you are able to do something.

Also if you treat Blast and Rerolls as having to trigger the ability to reroll, then almost nothing in the game actual works with Blast and Rerolls.

Rules which say that you can reroll all misses (e.g., twin-linked and the Space Marine devastator and tactical doctrines) allow you to reroll misses for blasts.

As such more general rerolls like prescience also don't reroll scatter because as you said "The ability doesn't exist if you don't roll a miss".

Use common sense. You roll the scatter dice. The blast scatters 12 inches north east. It doesn't hit anything; you are not able to roll any wounds.

Did you hit or miss?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The ability doesn't exist if you don't roll a one.

Bingo!