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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Don't vindicators have 24" range as well? Most armies can outrange them.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't most D weapons AP2? I rarely see a D weapon that cannot ignore armor saves.

Yep.
Anyhow, it is not D weapons that are the problem. Units like the triple Vindicator Line Breaker or the Typhon that can put down massive S10 AP1 10/7" blasts that ignore cover are the real threat. if my opponent brings these I am royally boned because no matter what I do he will remove big portions (read: several entire sections) of my army a turn.

The triple vindicator thing falls apart if you get a single shaken result. You can't penetrate av 11 once?

To both of you fine gentlemen, one word:

"Invisibility"

You didn't mention that in your post originally. So really the problem for IG, and every other 7.0 codex is invisibility. Because without invisibility, that unit is expensive and easy to neuter. Oh, and it's crap against MCs even with invisibility.

That scary scary Typhon Siege Tank is 350 points for a single shot still.

It... really is not all that dangerous even to your Russes.

What, are you footslogging an Ogryn army at it?

You know when an S10 AP1 Ignores Cover weapon is no longer considered a grave threat relative to other possible capabilities...that the game has reached a point where everything needs to be flushed and rebuilt from scratch

Yeah, I realised after I posted that what I just said would have been utter madness five years ago.

Hell, even just 18 months ago

I'm gonna go cry now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

If my opponent lacks sufficient AT to kill a Baneblade, my opponent also would have had problems with a Leman Russ squadron - same number of hull points, same armour thickness on the front and sides.

Squadrons. IG didn't get vehicle squadrons in heavy support until 5th ed. I guessed that was a result of Apocalypse vehicle squadrons bleeding into the game proper.
In a single force org chart, you had 3 Russ or basilisks etc and you either filled the rest of the points with more troops, hellhounds, sentinels, stormtroopers and so on or you started another force org chart- with two more troops and a hq as a requirement.

In practice this meant that there were less armored vehicles and no fliers. There was even a restriction on chimera use- you could take 1 armoured fist squad for every platoon of footsloggers. Steel legion were REQUIRED to take a chimera on every infantry unit, even ones that wouldn't really benefit from the mobility- leaving you less points for heavy support.

As a guard player I welcomed the changes- with veterans moving to troops, extra tanks to fill points, ignores cover artillery- ORDERS.
Now I reckon it was the beginning of the end of any semblance of balance. Taking 9 heavy support choices quickly snowballed down the slippery slope to allies, formations and superheavies and flyers.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

If my opponent lacks sufficient AT to kill a Baneblade, my opponent also would have had problems with a Leman Russ squadron - same number of hull points, same armour thickness on the front and sides.

Squadrons. IG didn't get vehicle squadrons in heavy support until 5th ed. I guessed that was a result of Apocalypse vehicle squadrons bleeding into the game proper.
In a single force org chart, you had 3 Russ or basilisks etc and you either filled the rest of the points with more troops, hellhounds, sentinels, stormtroopers and so on or you started another force org chart- with two more troops and a hq as a requirement.

In practice this meant that there were less armored vehicles and no fliers. There was even a restriction on chimera use- you could take 1 armoured fist squad for every platoon of footsloggers. Steel legion were REQUIRED to take a chimera on every infantry unit, even ones that wouldn't really benefit from the mobility- leaving you less points for heavy support.

As a guard player I welcomed the changes- with veterans moving to troops, extra tanks to fill points, ignores cover artillery- ORDERS.
Now I reckon it was the beginning of the end of any semblance of balance. Taking 9 heavy support choices quickly snowballed down the slippery slope to allies, formations and superheavies and flyers.

Armies entirely made up of Leman Russ tanks have existed in the game since the 2004 Chapter Approved supplement that added Imperial Armoured Companies.

So no, it isn't all Apocalypse's fault - in a single FOC (with no points limits) you could have 11 Leman Russ tanks. In 4th Edition, with the 2006 Chapter Approved article, that went up to 17 if you took the Heavy Armour Doctrine and didn't have a phobia of Demolishers.

Yeah, Armored Battalion Battlegroup or whatever was a thing back then. It was rare, but possible.

The Typhon I will grant you. I find that thing scary as hell too. It's the one thing I've got no real recommendation against.

To both of you fine gentlemen, one word:
"Invisibility"

Another thing in favour of 30k - psykers are a little harder to get hold of, and the ones who get to pick their powers (like Lorgar Transfigured) pointedly don't have access to telepathy.

I didn't like epic. 6mm Baneblades were basically tiny blobs of metal, devoid of any character or meaningful detail, and had weapons modeled on them that weren't even in the rules. 28mm WYSIWYG Baneblades are awesome, and fun to paint; easily weathered and detailed.

The forgeworld 6mm superheavies had a remarkable level of detail on them, though - to more or less the same level as Dropzone Commander stuff does today.

And I didn't like having apocalypse be the purview of large tanks because it was too big. Why bring a Baneblade when you could bring a Titan? The only Apoc games I ever played were team affairs larger than 3000 points. Why not a 2000 point game with a Baneblade? I am sure there was one out there supporting an Imperial infantry or mech company. Why not a Titan at 1250 points, representing the scouting party and its Skitarii ranging out in front of a larger Titan off the field?

Agreed. The only thing needed is to make sure that there's a balance in the scenario. That's why I quite like the 30k Leviathan force org chart - you can take a stupidly overpowered superheavy, but in order to do so you only get an allied detachement's worth of supporting dudes, and since it's your scoring unit, you find yourself having to take risks with it that you wouldn't in a 'normal' 40k game - a Leviathan detachment built around a reaver, for example, forces the titan to advance to take objectives. Which means the carapace mounted weapon rarely gets to fire at non-superheavies and people have a fighting chance of getting at the side armour. In 40k, your superheavies will sit at the back line/midfield behind bubblewrap and shell the enemy whilst objective secured, fast moving, expendable things like bikes and jetbikes do the objective work.

Aren't most D weapons AP2? I rarely see a D weapon that cannot ignore armor saves.

The only one I can think of is the Warlord Titan's Mori-pattern Quake Cannon. I think there's a Khornate daemonic gift or warlord trait that can make you strength D on a 6 to hit, or give you one strength D attack instead of your normal attacks, but I don't know if it replaces the AP value too.

But at the same time you have tanks like the Typhon and entire armies made up out of Dreadnoughts. Not to mention the support squads with flamers.....

Agreed on the flamers, but then flamer squads are infantry too. Admittedly, not riflemen, but still a very efficient small arms unit.

Also, they have their nemesis. Thudd Guns and flamer sections are devastating right up until they see breacher squads coming the other way. A rerollable 3+ save from Hardened Power Armour is a bugger to get through, even more so if the sergeant has Hardened Artificer Armour.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That scary scary Typhon Siege Tank is 350 points for a single shot still.

It... really is not all that dangerous even to your Russes.

What, are you footslogging an Ogryn army at it?

Camo veterans with tank support.
Unfortunately he runs close quarters units like Deathshroud and parks his Typhon at the back. I have the choice of running towards his CC units and being butchered or standing back and letting him come to me whilst the Typhon removes big chunks of my army.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Armies entirely made up of Leman Russ tanks have existed in the game since the 2004 Chapter Approved supplement that added Imperial Armoured Companies.

So no, it isn't all Apocalypse's fault - in a single FOC (with no points limits) you could have 11 Leman Russ tanks. In 4th Edition, with the 2006 Chapter Approved article, that went up to 17 if you took the Heavy Armour Doctrine and didn't have a phobia of Demolishers.

And there were special rules that effectively gave every enemy gun a form of weak rending, to balance that. Right there, in the Armoured Company rules.


They also introduced Vehicle Morale and rules penalizing armored companies who brought zero infantry support (they couldn't get closer than 12 inches to infantry in cover- a squad of guardians could block the advance of the most expensive tank on the board)

The designers understood that while fielding an army of tanks can be lots of fun, it may not be as much fun playing against them using rules designed for 28mm soldiers. And while today's designers may understand that, their response is 'buy more models'.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
That scary scary Typhon Siege Tank is 350 points for a single shot still.

It... really is not all that dangerous even to your Russes.

What, are you footslogging an Ogryn army at it?

Camo veterans with tank support.
Unfortunately he runs close quarters units like Deathshroud and parks his Typhon at the back. I have the choice of running towards his CC units and being butchered or standing back and letting him come to me whilst the Typhon removes big chunks of my army.

Do you still have your Bastion-Breacher shells from 5th ed?

(I only have the 5th ed Guard codex).

If you do, a few of those should reduce it to rubble in short order.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
That scary scary Typhon Siege Tank is 350 points for a single shot still.

It... really is not all that dangerous even to your Russes.

What, are you footslogging an Ogryn army at it?

Camo veterans with tank support.
Unfortunately he runs close quarters units like Deathshroud and parks his Typhon at the back. I have the choice of running towards his CC units and being butchered or standing back and letting him come to me whilst the Typhon removes big chunks of my army.

Do you still have your Bastion-Breacher shells from 5th ed?

(I only have the 5th ed Guard codex).

If you do, a few of those should reduce it to rubble in short order.

Nope. We only have Earthshakers now - the Medusa, Colossus and Griffon where all dropped from the game.

Well that's dumb. The Bastion-Breacher shells were insanely scary back in 5th but in today's clown house meta they would be welcome.

I mean, if you're playing against a 30k list, you should take the 30k IG equivalent (Imperialis Militia) and see how happy he is when you are vomiting flareshielded Fast-or-AV14 Malcadors all over the place.

The colossus is still a FW weapon I think.

Aye, as would be the Colous. Popping a 5" AP3 Ignore Cover blast on my opponent was fun.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Armies entirely made up of Leman Russ tanks have existed in the game since the 2004 Chapter Approved supplement that added Imperial Armoured Companies.

So no, it isn't all Apocalypse's fault - in a single FOC (with no points limits) you could have 11 Leman Russ tanks. In 4th Edition, with the 2006 Chapter Approved article, that went up to 17 if you took the Heavy Armour Doctrine and didn't have a phobia of Demolishers.

And there were special rules that effectively gave every enemy gun a form of weak rending, to balance that. Right there, in the Armoured Company rules.

Spoiler:

Lucky Glancing Hits: Even the most heavily armoured vehicle has certain locations which are especially vulnerable. For example, most vehicles have vision slits through which a shot could pass, and often crewmen will open a hatch to look out, which will leave them exposed to enemy fire. Turreted tanks are at risk to shots which hit the 'turret ring' where the turret is joined to the hull, and which can leave the turret jammed in place and unable to move. And, of course, most vehicles are vulnerable to a lucky shot that strikes their fragile tracks, wheels or thrusters and leaves the vehicle immobilised, the chance of a shot striking such a location is very remote, and so in the normal Warhammer 40,000 rules such things are ignored. However, when a large number of vehicles are being used in a game, and in particular in situations where a large number of models are armed with weapons which simply can't do any damage to a vehicle (Imperial Guard armed with lasguns, for example), then it's important that such things as 'lucky hits' are covered.

Because of this, in games where an Armoured Company army is used, the following Lucky Glancing Hits rule must be used. Lucky hits are only used for weapons that don't have any chance of scoring even a glancing hit on the vehicle's available facing (a lasgun shooting at a Rhino, for example). They can't be scored by weapons that roll more than a single D6 for Armour Penetration, or by weapons that allow you to re-roll the Armour Penetration dice (which don't really need the help anyway!).

Roll to hit for the weapon anyway; a lucky hit occurs on a to hit roll of 6. When a lucky hit occurs, roll the D6 , again. If the second roll is also a 6 then a glancing hit is scored - the shot has struck a vulnerable point on the vehicle. On any other roll the shot glances off and has no effect.

If a lucky glancing hit is scored, roll on the Glancing Hit table as normal, However, if the roll is higher than the weapon's Strength, count the hit as causing a 'Crew Shaken' result instead of what is rolled.

Example: A Chimera is heading towards a group of four Space Marines armed with bolters. Normally the Space Marines' bolters (Strength 4) couldn't penetrate the Chimera's front armour of 12, but with the Lucky Hit rule there is a chance of inflicting some damage, so the Space Marines blaze away at the vehicle. The Space Marines roll to hit, and get 2, 4, 6 and 6. The 2 and the 4 are ignored, but the 6s have a chance of scoring a lucky glancing hit. The Space Marine player rolls the D6 again, and gets a 3 and a 6! The 3 does no damage, but the 6 causes a lucky glancing hit. The Space Marine player rolls on the Glancing Hit table, and scores yet another 6. However, the maximum score allowed is equal to the bolter's Strength of 4, so the roll inflicts a 'Crew Shaken' result rather than destroying the vehicle.

They also introduced Vehicle Morale and rules penalizing armored companies who brought zero infantry support (they couldn't get closer than 12 inches to infantry in cover- a squad of guardians could block the advance of the most expensive tank on the board)

The designers understood that while fielding an army of tanks can be lots of fun, it may not be as much fun playing against them using rules designed for 28mm soldiers. And while today's designers may understand that, their response is 'buy more models'.

Have you read the 4th edition rules? All of that is gone. Two years later.

To be fair though, who really brought enough tanks to be able to play an armoured company? One player? Two? I almost never saw them as most IG players preferred two or three tanks with some Infantry support.
Of course, back then two or three tanks where a major threat to the enemy and would be a serious issue if they ignored them. These days two or three tanks is a waste of points - you need five or six minimal in order to have them last long enough to avoid the HP sanding.

Can you not still access the medusa with BB shells through the IA books? I was thinking of running a couple of them.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Armies entirely made up of Leman Russ tanks have existed in the game since the 2004 Chapter Approved supplement that added Imperial Armoured Companies.

So no, it isn't all Apocalypse's fault - in a single FOC (with no points limits) you could have 11 Leman Russ tanks. In 4th Edition, with the 2006 Chapter Approved article, that went up to 17 if you took the Heavy Armour Doctrine and didn't have a phobia of Demolishers.

And there were special rules that effectively gave every enemy gun a form of weak rending, to balance that. Right there, in the Armoured Company rules.

Spoiler:

Lucky Glancing Hits: Even the most heavily armoured vehicle has certain locations which are especially vulnerable. For example, most vehicles have vision slits through which a shot could pass, and often crewmen will open a hatch to look out, which will leave them exposed to enemy fire. Turreted tanks are at risk to shots which hit the 'turret ring' where the turret is joined to the hull, and which can leave the turret jammed in place and unable to move. And, of course, most vehicles are vulnerable to a lucky shot that strikes their fragile tracks, wheels or thrusters and leaves the vehicle immobilised, the chance of a shot striking such a location is very remote, and so in the normal Warhammer 40,000 rules such things are ignored. However, when a large number of vehicles are being used in a game, and in particular in situations where a large number of models are armed with weapons which simply can't do any damage to a vehicle (Imperial Guard armed with lasguns, for example), then it's important that such things as 'lucky hits' are covered.

Because of this, in games where an Armoured Company army is used, the following Lucky Glancing Hits rule must be used. Lucky hits are only used for weapons that don't have any chance of scoring even a glancing hit on the vehicle's available facing (a lasgun shooting at a Rhino, for example). They can't be scored by weapons that roll more than a single D6 for Armour Penetration, or by weapons that allow you to re-roll the Armour Penetration dice (which don't really need the help anyway!).

Roll to hit for the weapon anyway; a lucky hit occurs on a to hit roll of 6. When a lucky hit occurs, roll the D6 , again. If the second roll is also a 6 then a glancing hit is scored - the shot has struck a vulnerable point on the vehicle. On any other roll the shot glances off and has no effect.

If a lucky glancing hit is scored, roll on the Glancing Hit table as normal, However, if the roll is higher than the weapon's Strength, count the hit as causing a 'Crew Shaken' result instead of what is rolled.

Example: A Chimera is heading towards a group of four Space Marines armed with bolters. Normally the Space Marines' bolters (Strength 4) couldn't penetrate the Chimera's front armour of 12, but with the Lucky Hit rule there is a chance of inflicting some damage, so the Space Marines blaze away at the vehicle. The Space Marines roll to hit, and get 2, 4, 6 and 6. The 2 and the 4 are ignored, but the 6s have a chance of scoring a lucky glancing hit. The Space Marine player rolls the D6 again, and gets a 3 and a 6! The 3 does no damage, but the 6 causes a lucky glancing hit. The Space Marine player rolls on the Glancing Hit table, and scores yet another 6. However, the maximum score allowed is equal to the bolter's Strength of 4, so the roll inflicts a 'Crew Shaken' result rather than destroying the vehicle.

They also introduced Vehicle Morale and rules penalizing armored companies who brought zero infantry support (they couldn't get closer than 12 inches to infantry in cover- a squad of guardians could block the advance of the most expensive tank on the board)

The designers understood that while fielding an army of tanks can be lots of fun, it may not be as much fun playing against them using rules designed for 28mm soldiers. And while today's designers may understand that, their response is 'buy more models'.

they removed the movement restrictions and pseudo rending from the AC is fairly short order, the army was laughably unplayable in its original incarnation. They went wayyyyy overboard in handicapping that list.

Martel732 wrote:
The colossus is still a FW weapon I think.

Medusa is still in FW and a legal purchase for a heavy slot for IG. I like to grab some medusa carriages in my normal CAD lists so I can have a really really hardy shooter behind an ADL or on a skyshield. They also get the ignore cover order, which is awesome, and they are pretty hard to kill, be careful of leadership, so grab a commissar lord or a company banner to help with leadership. If you dont like the price of FW theres a nice conversion thread going on right now in general discussion about how to make your own carriages.

I'm sorry but those who say "rifleman has no place in modern combat", or is "ineffective as a weapon" don't understand modern combat. If nations want to annihilate each other they just use ICMBs.Thankfully, that isn't usually the intended outcome for ether side in a conflict. So as far as conventional war goes (taking into consideration the rules for that engagement), you still need rifleman to clear out urban areas, areas with civilians present or areas where tanks can't enter or to hold objectives. They also have a much lower profile. Also don't forget that the modern rifleman has a lot of sting, in the form of anti-tank (i.e javelins) and Man portable SAMS. Even if the rules of engagement were "cause as many civilian casualties as you like", indiscriminate bombardments are extremely expensive and never seem to actually kill defending infantry. The British dropped 1 700 000 shells on german positions before the battle of the somme, but didn't manage to kill many germans.



With regard to 40k. The fluff involves tank commanders driving their tanks closer so they can hit the enemy with their swords. Don't over think it.

With regards to the game. If you want more infantry play, play at a smaller points value. (like 1000 pts).

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I'm sorry but those who say "rifleman has no place in modern combat"or is "ineffective as a weapon" don't understand modern combat.

I think the larger point was that they arent the greatest generator of enemy casualties in conventional force on force battle, and that in some situations other units can effectively hold geound, not that infantry are utterly pointless.

The British dropped 1 700 000 shells on german positions before the battle of the somme, but didn't manage to kill many germans.

well...when theyve had plenty of forwarning, are manning what were probably the strongest defensive positions in history up to that point, and the british not only use mostly completely ineffectual munitions but also have gargantuan numbers of dud rounds, this tactic tends not to work as well

I'd further add that the mujahideen (a light infantry force) managed to see off the modern mechanised might of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I'd further add that the mujahideen (a light infantry force) managed to see off the modern mechanised might of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

Well, sort of. They did the same thing that the US encountered in Vietnam, which was outlast the Soviets will to stay. The casualty count was monstrously in the Soviets favor, its just that they couldnt maintain control over the people and the wilds, much like the US could not in Vietnam. With regards to something akin to a 40k battle, the Soviets would win just about every time, with relatively rare exceptions.

 Vaktathi wrote:

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I'd further add that the mujahideen (a light infantry force) managed to see off the modern mechanised might of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

Well, sort of. They did the same thing that the US encountered in Vietnam, which was outlast the Soviets will to stay. The casualty count was monstrously in the Soviets favor, its just that they couldnt maintain control over the people and the wilds, much like the US could not in Vietnam. With regards to something akin to a 40k battle, the Soviets would win just about every time, with relatively rare exceptions.

I think alot of these issues with comparing these wars is that they still somewhat followed the "rules of engagement" even if loosely that you cant just level out towns and villages. In the modern sense even the soviets had the eyes of the world on them and they couldnt be completely seen as bloodthirsty conquerors. Now compare this to the British invasion of Afghanistan, the American/Seminole conflict in Florida, or the Maori Wars of New Zealand (and to some degree even the Israeli/Palestinian conflict). Those conflicts had grossly outnumbered forces holding out against well armed and equipped foes who could care very little about the health and well being on the locals. Many of these conflicts were won by smart forces that utilized their opponents tactics against them and doing what guerilla forces do best, making their enemies waste time and resources shooting at nothing.

I think the key for understanding here is that light infantry regiments need to be mobile, flexible, and most of all, hidden. In this respect we cannot recreate that on the tabletop because you cannot make your IG infantry do this. In order to accomplish this you would basically need an army of SM Scouts. Everyone could have infiltrate, outflank, and camo cloaks and be loaded up with close range high impact weapons like demo charges and melta guns so they can make hit and run attacks and move out, dividing enemy fire and making them lose sight of their objectives while pursuing such elusive forces. This could easily be a doctrine thing, although the Elysians come pretty darn close to accomplishing this (and do so in style!) and are a big contender of a competent modified light infantry list. Hopefully if they get updated to the current edition we can use this to our advantage in playing infantry lists.

I think the real problem people have in trying to run horde lists is that they are running them without support. By this I mean they need to have either air cover, mechanized, or artillery support fire to allow them to make their advances (you wont be able to shoot the wave of men effectively if you are being bombed into oblivion at the same time). While a bit overpriced, the DKoK siege list can work well to give a nice horde style list with troops that will not fall back supported by heavy artillery, rapiers, and thudd guns. Additionally the really really REALLY good horde list currently belongs to Heretics and Renegades with their Unending Host detachment and is FUN AS HELL!!!! It gives you the ability to load up on meltas and have nearly limitless men on the field who give each other cover. Too bad its filthy chaos worshippers! Without special rules like infiltrate, camo cloaks, or even improvements in leadership, and other similar things the idea of the light infantry horde list will not do well in the current game, barring some major changes.

There is no cover or support in 40K. Most horde lists can't engage scatterbikes effectively at 36" and so they straight up lose right there.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no cover or support in 40K. Most horde lists can't engage scatterbikes effectively at 36" and so they straight up lose right there.

Thats why mobility and things like infiltrate and things like outflank can really make the difference. Also HWT with ignore cover lascannons can also do some work to scatter bikes as well.

Wether it is 2016 or 41999, you can't hold territory without some poor SOB with a rifle on the ground. Is it glamorous? No. But it's necessary.

Now if you have no interest in holding territory then no, you don't need infantry.