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 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I'd further add that the mujahideen (a light infantry force) managed to see off the modern mechanised might of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

Well, sort of. They did the same thing that the US encountered in Vietnam, which was outlast the Soviets will to stay. The casualty count was monstrously in the Soviets favor, its just that they couldnt maintain control over the people and the wilds, much like the US could not in Vietnam. With regards to something akin to a 40k battle, the Soviets would win just about every time, with relatively rare exceptions.

I think the key for understanding here is that light infantry regiments need to be mobile, flexible, and most of all, hidden. In this respect we cannot recreate that on the tabletop because you cannot make your IG infantry do this. In order to accomplish this you would basically need an army of SM Scouts. Everyone could have infiltrate, outflank, and camo cloaks and be loaded up with close range high impact weapons like demo charges and melta guns so they can make hit and run attacks and move out, dividing enemy fire and making them lose sight of their objectives while pursuing such elusive forces. This could easily be a doctrine thing, although the Elysians come pretty darn close to accomplishing this (and do so in style!) and are a big contender of a competent modified light infantry list. Hopefully if they get updated to the current edition we can use this to our advantage in playing infantry lists.

Yes, and that is exactly how I want to run my dudes. All my guys are modeled with camo cloaks and are intended to operate in densely forested terrain where larger vehicles and mechanized troops will be restricted in their capabilities. In that kind of environment they are perfectly equipped to ambush and take out the majority of enemy forces that are unfortunate enough to encounter them.

In part my problem with the system is that rifles cannot even do damage to other infantry. Whether an enemy is out in the open charging you head on, or you are flanking an unsuspecting enemy, the rules do not differentiate. The person engaging in a head long attack is going to be aware of your presence and at least trying to dodge your fire. The flanked person is unaware of your presence and thusly should be able to be taken out swiftly and easily by a rifleman. Bolters Basically I want the lowest tier of weapons to actually be useful to their users. Right now they are more than anything just a wound to soak up before you lose your plasma gun.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I'd further add that the mujahideen (a light infantry force) managed to see off the modern mechanised might of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

Well, sort of. They did the same thing that the US encountered in Vietnam, which was outlast the Soviets will to stay. The casualty count was monstrously in the Soviets favor, its just that they couldnt maintain control over the people and the wilds, much like the US could not in Vietnam. With regards to something akin to a 40k battle, the Soviets would win just about every time, with relatively rare exceptions.

I think the key for understanding here is that light infantry regiments need to be mobile, flexible, and most of all, hidden. In this respect we cannot recreate that on the tabletop because you cannot make your IG infantry do this. In order to accomplish this you would basically need an army of SM Scouts. Everyone could have infiltrate, outflank, and camo cloaks and be loaded up with close range high impact weapons like demo charges and melta guns so they can make hit and run attacks and move out, dividing enemy fire and making them lose sight of their objectives while pursuing such elusive forces. This could easily be a doctrine thing, although the Elysians come pretty darn close to accomplishing this (and do so in style!) and are a big contender of a competent modified light infantry list. Hopefully if they get updated to the current edition we can use this to our advantage in playing infantry lists.

Yes, and that is exactly how I want to run my dudes. All my guys are modeled with camo cloaks and are intended to operate in densely forested terrain where larger vehicles and mechanized troops will be restricted in their capabilities. In that kind of environment they are perfectly equipped to ambush and take out the majority of enemy forces that are unfortunate enough to encounter them.

In part my problem with the system is that rifles cannot even do damage to other infantry. Whether an enemy is out in the open charging you head on, or you are flanking an unsuspecting enemy, the rules do not differentiate. The person engaging in a head long attack is going to be aware of your presence and at least trying to dodge your fire. The flanked person is unaware of your presence and thusly should be able to be taken out swiftly and easily by a rifleman. Bolters Basically I want the lowest tier of weapons to actually be useful to their users. Right now they are more than anything just a wound to soak up before you lose your plasma gun.

I see what you are saying but I think thats why FRFSRF and other orders exists to emulate this concept of a debilitating salvo of fire. Unfortunately its not exactly easy or prudent to be able to use it all over the place. I would be in favor of Sgts being able to issue orders, or better yet, Voxes having unlimited range to make sure you can get your orders off when then need to happen.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I'd further add that the mujahideen (a light infantry force) managed to see off the modern mechanised might of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

Well, sort of. They did the same thing that the US encountered in Vietnam, which was outlast the Soviets will to stay. The casualty count was monstrously in the Soviets favor, its just that they couldnt maintain control over the people and the wilds, much like the US could not in Vietnam. With regards to something akin to a 40k battle, the Soviets would win just about every time, with relatively rare exceptions.

I think the key for understanding here is that light infantry regiments need to be mobile, flexible, and most of all, hidden. In this respect we cannot recreate that on the tabletop because you cannot make your IG infantry do this. In order to accomplish this you would basically need an army of SM Scouts. Everyone could have infiltrate, outflank, and camo cloaks and be loaded up with close range high impact weapons like demo charges and melta guns so they can make hit and run attacks and move out, dividing enemy fire and making them lose sight of their objectives while pursuing such elusive forces. This could easily be a doctrine thing, although the Elysians come pretty darn close to accomplishing this (and do so in style!) and are a big contender of a competent modified light infantry list. Hopefully if they get updated to the current edition we can use this to our advantage in playing infantry lists.

Yes, and that is exactly how I want to run my dudes. All my guys are modeled with camo cloaks and are intended to operate in densely forested terrain where larger vehicles and mechanized troops will be restricted in their capabilities. In that kind of environment they are perfectly equipped to ambush and take out the majority of enemy forces that are unfortunate enough to encounter them.

In part my problem with the system is that rifles cannot even do damage to other infantry. Whether an enemy is out in the open charging you head on, or you are flanking an unsuspecting enemy, the rules do not differentiate. The person engaging in a head long attack is going to be aware of your presence and at least trying to dodge your fire. The flanked person is unaware of your presence and thusly should be able to be taken out swiftly and easily by a rifleman. Bolters Basically I want the lowest tier of weapons to actually be useful to their users. Right now they are more than anything just a wound to soak up before you lose your plasma gun.

I see what you are saying but I think thats why FRFSRF and other orders exists to emulate this concept of a debilitating salvo of fire. Unfortunately its not exactly easy or prudent to be able to use it all over the place. I would be in favor of Sgts being able to issue orders, or better yet, Voxes having unlimited range to make sure you can get your orders off when then need to happen.

It isn't just a lack of orders. It is a game mechanic issue. For instance you can't realistically expect a group of 20 guys to stealthily creep up or flank and enemy position. This is why you have a somewhat spread out and highly specialized force. It is what makes a combat unit like that different than traditional infantry.

So lets say I flank an ork squad of 20 boys some how (lol never going to happen) and they wish to shoot at the orks. That veteran squad w/frfsrf is getting 20 hits and 6.6 wounds. Then that leaves the 6+ armor. That leaves about 5 dead orks. So now an entire squad of boys has been outflanked within 12 inches. This then means that I'm going to get shot next turn, and then charged. There really isn't even a point in the exercise at all if that is the outcome. That entire squad should be wiped out or become combat ineffective due to the sudden and devastating assault.

Well for one, killing 5 Orks out of twenty is hardly what I would consider devastating, and hardly what they as a fictional species would consider devastating.

Secondly it seems like you assume that every time you move you'll be able to outflank an enemy with out detection. You wouldn't, thats a fact of war.

Now on the table top, it would add to many additional rules in order to implement a level of planning you want. You'd need to make rules for detection, for moving in the prone. Look outs, proper scouts, the proper usage of cover. Its the way it is, because GW wants to keep the game somewhat simple for people to follow, not give them about thirty different charts they want to roll on each phase.

If you want a bit more "tactical" flexibility see about using blips or pieces of paper to mark where a squad is and then not be able to see it unless it fires or you are with in range of a LoS weapon.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Well for one, killing 5 Orks out of twenty is hardly what I would consider devastating, and hardly what they as a fictional species would consider devastating.

Secondly it seems like you assume that every time you move you'll be able to outflank an enemy with out detection. You wouldn't, thats a fact of war.

Now on the table top, it would add to many additional rules in order to implement a level of planning you want. You'd need to make rules for detection, for moving in the prone. Look outs, proper scouts, the proper usage of cover. Its the way it is, because GW wants to keep the game somewhat simple for people to follow, not give them about thirty different charts they want to roll on each phase.

If you want a bit more "tactical" flexibility see about using blips or pieces of paper to mark where a squad is and then not be able to see it unless it fires or you are with in range of a LoS weapon.

Of course 5 orks is nothing, that was the point. They flank them and do nothing still.

My intention was not to say that all of my forces should be able to outflank, but rather that other forces would draw fire, and / or suppress enemy units so that specialized and maneuverable squads could then outflank and take out the enemy.

Make more weapons have pinning then, or give certain ones Suppressing Fire which could be an improved version of Pinning with more negatives.

But then you need to worry about the fact that there are so many units that don't care about pinning or Leadership Based effects.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Make more weapons have pinning then, or give certain ones Suppressing Fire which could be an improved version of Pinning with more negatives.

But then you need to worry about the fact that there are so many units that don't care about pinning or Leadership Based effects.

Exactly. The problem goes right down to the basics of the game's mechanics, and is why I'm not just talking about this from a guard perspective. I want all factions to have more utility for their infantry and riflemen.

The easiest way to do that would to just take the rules back a couple of editions to less vehicles, no LoW, no formations.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The easiest way to do that would to just take the rules back a couple of editions to less vehicles, no LoW, no formations.

Aye, but then you have people with lots of expensive tanks and other big models they can't use. Those guys will be unhappy and stop buying GW plastics, and that's not good (for GW).

Bring back the old days, when Apocalypse was its own legit thing. Rather than having Apocalypse and Apocalypse Light.

Then everyone is happy.

One of the other options is actually equip your mobile squads with something more effective than lasguns.

Such specialized 'sneak' squads could still be equipped with man-portable weapons, such as flamers. If your heavier assets do pin an enemy, or at least make them focus the heavier assets, then you can drop flamethrowers on their heads, and flamers will do considerably more damage to 20 orks than lasguns. You could even add shotguns and charge the remnant - at least then you get the extra attack for charging and they lose their furious charge bonus.

I actually have an opponent who does just this - he runs a Knight and a Leman Russ (at 1500) and then a bunch of flamer or melta squads (not always in Chimeras but sometimes he'll trade a squad for a Chimera). While my primary heavy units are engaging the Knight and the Russ, the Guardsmen have some time to move upfield, and usually they're in the perfect spot to shoot and charge my units just as the Knight and Russ go down, which is turn 3ish (sometimes 2, sometimes 4) but between the Move Move Move! order and camo cloaks he can usually hug terrain and be safe from my lighter assets as he sprints across the board.

It's really quite a maneuverable infantry army.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
One of the other options is actually equip your mobile squads with something more effective than lasguns.

Such specialized 'sneak' squads could still be equipped with man-portable weapons, such as flamers. If your heavier assets do pin an enemy, or at least make them focus the heavier assets, then you can drop flamethrowers on their heads, and flamers will do considerably more damage to 20 orks than lasguns. You could even add shotguns and charge the remnant - at least then you get the extra attack for charging and they lose their furious charge bonus.

It's really quite a maneuverable infantry army.

The problem is that this is about the rifleman. There is nothing cooler, and nothing more reflective of your capabilities in warfare, than in your obliteration of an enemy with your rifle. It shows that not only were you quicker than your opponent, but also smarter than them. Flamers and specialist weapons should be there for specific purposes. Flamethrowers are there to clear out bunkers and fortified positions (they are also very heavy and go on the back, making camo cloaks a no go). Plasma is good against heavily armored infantry, the melta against vehicles and the rifle intended for use against other infantry. Flame throwers are just not suited to this role, or at least shouldn't be.

The squad is specialized in that they are light on equipment and given camo cloaks so that they can move quickly through dense underbrush, remain hidden and then take out the enemy,

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
One of the other options is actually equip your mobile squads with something more effective than lasguns.

Such specialized 'sneak' squads could still be equipped with man-portable weapons, such as flamers. If your heavier assets do pin an enemy, or at least make them focus the heavier assets, then you can drop flamethrowers on their heads, and flamers will do considerably more damage to 20 orks than lasguns. You could even add shotguns and charge the remnant - at least then you get the extra attack for charging and they lose their furious charge bonus.

It's really quite a maneuverable infantry army.

The problem is that this is about the rifleman. There is nothing cooler, and nothing more reflective of your capabilities in warfare, than in your obliteration of an enemy with your rifle. It shows that not only were you quicker than your opponent, but also smarter than them. Flamers and specialist weapons should be there for specific purposes. Flamethrowers are there to clear out bunkers and fortified positions (they are also very heavy and go on the back, making camo cloaks a no go). Plasma is good against heavily armored infantry, the melta against vehicles and the rifle intended for use against other infantry. Flame throwers are just not suited to this role, or at least shouldn't be.

The squad is specialized in that they are light on equipment and given camo cloaks so that they can move quickly through dense underbrush, remain hidden and take out the enemy,

You're conflating 40k and Real Life. In real life, flamers can shoot much further than in 40k, but they are also less harmful (at least, I imagine so against things as tough as Orks!). Flamers in 40k are the premier anti-infantry weapon, because the way you kill enemy infantry is by hitting them lots of times, and Lasguns just don't cut it anymore.

Also, you've not got a great imagination, if you think the horrible World War 2 style backpack-fueled Flamers are the only Flamers in 40k. Maybe your Regiment makes unauthorized Lasgun modifications to split the beam into needle-thin cutting lasers that spread into a cone but uses the whole charge-pack in one go (Assault 1, Template). Or perhaps your Flamers are Meltas with the barrel crudely sawed off, leaving an unfocused blast of energy as its discharge rather than a concentrated antitank beam.

Heck, maybe all your flamer people are latent Pyromancers.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is nothing cooler, and nothing more reflective of your capabilities in warfare, than in your obliteration of an enemy with your rifle.

Heresy. There is nothing cooler in warfare than obliterating the enemy and everything nearby with an airstrike. Planes > rifles. Indisputable truth.

I find the obliteration of the enemy in massed artillery strikes to be much more cathartic but that's just me.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is nothing cooler, and nothing more reflective of your capabilities in warfare, than in your obliteration of an enemy with your rifle.

Heresy. There is nothing cooler in warfare than obliterating the enemy and everything nearby with an airstrike. Planes > rifles. Indisputable truth.

Obliterating the enemy and everything near by with your orbiting starship's weapons is cooler.
Spacecraft > planes

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is nothing cooler, and nothing more reflective of your capabilities in warfare, than in your obliteration of an enemy with your rifle.

Heresy. There is nothing cooler in warfare than obliterating the enemy and everything nearby with an airstrike. Planes > rifles. Indisputable truth.

Obliterating the enemy and everything near by with your orbiting starship's weapons is cooler.
Spacecraft > planes

Dropping a building on top of your enemy is even cooler.

Psykers>Spacecraft

Meanwhile back on the farm, I think if we gave Infantry, Not troops, but all Infantry Models, ObSec in a CAD it would work towards making Bodies feel more useful. The game as Escalated to the point where most weapons weaker than s6 just don't cut it and anyone carrying a bolter or a Lasgun is just an extra bulletcatcher for the guy with the Plasma Gun or Melta( or Grav ect.)

I feel there should be more restrictions on GMC/SVH in 40k as well. Outside of Imperial Knight armies, who don't really have a choice in the matter, you shouldn't be able to take more than 25% in SVH/GMC. Those Models should be more like Centerpieces for your army.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is nothing cooler, and nothing more reflective of your capabilities in warfare, than in your obliteration of an enemy with your rifle.

Heresy. There is nothing cooler in warfare than obliterating the enemy and everything nearby with an airstrike. Planes > rifles. Indisputable truth.

You guys all spell 'close combat' in a very odd manner.

I hear you OP. Unfortunately 40k is more of a shoot-em up than a strategy game. It's largely won by 1) bringing the right guns to the battle 2) Targeting to maximum efficiency. Between that and the swingy play the rules tend towards, you're not left with a tactically rewarding game. Fun but tactics and squad level actions take a back seat here my friend.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is nothing cooler, and nothing more reflective of your capabilities in warfare, than in your obliteration of an enemy with your rifle.

Heresy. There is nothing cooler in warfare than obliterating the enemy and everything nearby with an airstrike. Planes > rifles. Indisputable truth.

You guys all spell 'close combat' in a very odd manner.

Anti-spirals, please. Everyone knows throwing galaxies around in a mech of improbable is the best way to fight.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is nothing cooler, and nothing more reflective of your capabilities in warfare, than in your obliteration of an enemy with your rifle.

Heresy. There is nothing cooler in warfare than obliterating the enemy and everything nearby with an airstrike. Planes > rifles. Indisputable truth.

You guys all spell 'close combat' in a very odd manner.

Clearly none of you has seen the light. What you describe is just pressing a few buttons or waving a pointy stick about. It is nothing compared to hearing the roar of your engines and feeling the wind in your hair as the thunder of your cannons obliterates the enemy whose fallen bodies are then crushed underneath your iron treads as their friends attempt in vain to stop you, their attacks futile against your armoured might. Truly there is nothing compared to the thrill of commanding the power of such a behemoth of steel and fire as you advance implacably across the field; a slow but inevitable doom to your enemies. Truly tanks are superior to anything else.