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True traditio, it takes shooting to knock it down.
And it can weather a fair bit of shooting.

Now run the math for grav cents (since we are using predominantly marine weapons in this)


However, to get a "true cost" for a model you can't simply base it off defence only.
If something is tough but does little damage, its simply a tarpit and the expected cost lower etc.

While the wraithknight can cause damage, its nothing spectacular that ends games.



Also, keep in mind that the more people are trying to rocket the costs, the closer it gets to the revenant Titan.
And the revenant is a whole different beast altogether.

Jackal wrote:Now run the math for grav cents (since we are using predominantly marine weapons in this)

That's just it, though:

1. Grav cents are OP
2. Grav is the only reliable way of taking down a WK.

That's unacceptable.

However, to get a "true cost" for a model you can't simply base it off defence only.
If something is tough but does little damage, its simply a tarpit and the expected cost lower etc.

While the wraithknight can cause damage, its nothing spectacular that ends games.

5 S10, AP 2 attacks on the charge.

It would take:

2/3 X 1/2 X 1/4 = 2/24 = 12

12 close combat attacks to kill a landraider.

That's not counting stomp. That's not counting hammer of wrath. That's not taking into account the possibility of the landraider exploding.

If you factor in the ranged D shots, a WK could easily kill a landraider every single turn.

Traditio wrote:


In the SM codex, literally the only way to counter a WK is either: 1. grav spam or 2. drop pod grav or 3. grav-centurion plus librarians.

Are you getting the commonality?

You mean, those things that people do?

Traditio wrote:
15-25 points more on the base might be fair, as well. How is that "patently false?" The knight gallant costs 325

I think that IKs are also undercosted.

Evidence?

Some people consider them an auto-take.

If it' an auto-take, it's probably undercosted.

That is patently false.

Traditio wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:Okay benefit of the doubt time. If it was house ruled in your games to be 400pts would you be happy for WK's to be fielded against your bare bones marines?

1. My marines aren't bare-bone. I field them mostly with missile launchers, lascannons and plasma cannons. That's not "bare bones." If your idea of bare bones is "without grav, librarians or drop pods," then that's symptomatic of game imbalance.

2. No. Even at 400 points, the WK is simply too durable. A 100 points difference would mean that the Eldar player could take fewer things in his army, sure, but the WK would still be able to run around and kill things with impunity.

Superheavies don't belong in non-apocalypse games. Period.

So. the poll was pointless then. You havent proposed a rule. And though results tally up with your own bias you are ultgimately going to disregard it anyway.

For the record my main 40k games are/were fluffy narrative style affairs and wanting themes for my armies or battle I am still able to use pods and libbys. is it not fluffy or thematic for a tooled up space marine force to go hunting for bear? I really don't get your position Traditio.

Mr. Burning wrote:So. the poll was pointless then. You havent proposed a rule. And though results tally up with your own bias you are ultgimately going to disregard it anyway.

Actually. I propose 2:

1. The wraithknight should cost 400 points without changing its stats in the least. Further upgrades should be purchased as normal.

2. The wraithknight should only be taken in apocalypse games.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BossJakadakk wrote:

Maybe the issue isn't that the WK is undercosted, but that IK's are overcosted because *vehicles*. The WK having better saves is situational, as well.

However, if you assume scattershield on the WK, then it doesn't have ranged D. Is it's base still undercosted?

It seems like the survivability of a WK is what makes people think it's undercosted, not necessarily the damage output. At least, that's the impression I'm starting to get. But a T8 with a 3+ and *maybe (probably usually)* a 5++ with 6W and FNP. If it has the 5++, its only options are either melee-only D, or a Heavy 3 small blast with AP2. Is 295 absolutely too little to pay for those to be the only two choices?

Remember, we're talking about base, not adding any additional guns, which does add points to the cost. 350 might be fair for the base loadouts, but I'm thinking the additional cost comes mostly from the survivability, I'm not as sold that it needs an increase due to offensive capabilities.

It needs a huge boost in points simply because of the survivability. If the cheapest Knight(the Knight Gallant, outfitted with one weapon that can only strike at I1 and forces the Knight to pile-in at I1) is 325, then the base Wraithknight should be 375 at least.--or Wraithknights should only be able to be brought in as part of a unique Detachment ala Knights to prevent them from getting the benefits of the main Detachment.

Two melee D weapons, one allows attacks at initiative, iirc. I can't remember if the Colossal rule works like Specialist Weapon in that you won't get the extra attack for the reaper chainsword, but if not, then its melee capability is roughly the same as the sword/board wk, I think.

So the option I suggest is "op" and not acceptable?
So, in your eyes, what units this day and age are "op"

Just so I know what I'm allowed to suggest.



OK, so combat wise it's not much better than a fex against armour.

So your factoring the shooting so each shot hits and one of them rolls a 6?





I'm assuming your not following the power creep that is the basic 40k meta these days.
Yes, units are stronger than others.

However, you can't simply dismiss them and scream op each time.

 Jackal wrote:
So the option I suggest is "op" and not acceptable?
So, in your eyes, what units this day and age are "op"

Just so I know what I'm allowed to suggest.



OK, so combat wise it's not much better than a fex against armour.

So your factoring the shooting so each shot hits and one of them rolls a 6?





I'm assuming your not following the power creep that is the basic 40k meta these days.
Yes, units are stronger than others.

However, you can't simply dismiss them and scream op each time.

Oh, he can.

And he will.

Actually. I propose 2:

1. The wraithknight should cost 400 points without changing its stats in the least. Further upgrades should be purchased as normal.

2. The wraithknight should only be taken in apocalypse games.

1: the wraithknight is fine as is.

2: apocalypse isnt a thing anymore.
Look at the force organisation chart, see that slot named "lord of war"?
That means apocalypse has been somewhat integrated into 40k now.

 Jackal wrote:
So the option I suggest is "op" and not acceptable?
So, in your eyes, what units this day and age are "op"

Yes.

Do you want me to make another poll?

Just so I know what I'm allowed to suggest.

Imagine that, every time we have a disagreement, I make a poll. What would the polls say?

OK, so combat wise it's not much better than a fex against armour.

1. It's a GMC.
2. It's has the jump special rule.
3. It can stomp
4. It combines those CC capabilities with ranged D.

So your factoring the shooting so each shot hits and one of them rolls a 6?

The average result is that one of those D shots will hit and strip 2 hull points.

6 attacks on the charge (including HoW) for a total of:

6/1 X 2/3 X 1/2 = 12/6 = 2 hull points lost

2 hull points + 2 hull points = dead landraider.

That's not even taking stomp into account, and that's assuming the landraider is empty. If the landraider has a unit in it, it's straight screwed when the wraithknight stomps.

I'm assuming your not following the power creep that is the basic 40k meta these days.
Yes, units are stronger than others.

They shouldn't be. That's what the points system is for.

However, you can't simply dismiss them and scream op each time.

Yes. I can. If the capabilities don't match the points cost, I am entitled to scream OP every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackal1 wrote: the wraithknight is fine as is.

The public disagrees with you. Sorry.

With regards to unbuffed shooting:
Grav or Str D, is the only way to kill a WK. There are 2 codices with either of those. This is why WK are undercosted.

With regards to melee:
You need high Initiative StrD/Str10 to kill a knight. There are 2 codices that have access to this. This is why WKs are undercosted.

At Traditio, thanks for cathching my math error. But I do take umbrage at your implication of LTP if you cant take care of a WK. Orks struggle there. C'mon bro... some folks have no answer to that thing. Its like asking the Confederate Army to fight Panzer IIs.

doktor_g wrote:You need high Initiative StrD/Str10 to kill a knight. There are 2 codices that have access to this. This is why WKs are undercosted.

S10 isn't much better at killing a wraithknight. Yes, it means you wound on 2s, but the WK still gets its saves (albeit probably only the 5+ invuln) and FNP.

But I do take umbrage at your implication of LTP if you cant take care of a WK.

I didn't intend to imply any such thing. WKs are OP and should not be part of the regular game.

Traditio wrote:
Imagine that, every time we have a disagreement, I make a poll. What would the polls say?

Whatever the trolls want it to say, just like this one.

The public disagrees with you. Sorry.

Nope. The public clearly voted that Wraithknights need a reduction in point cost. They have some decent firepower, but a serious "all your eggs in one basket" problem and struggle badly in objective missions (AKA almost all of 40k). It might be superficially impressive to see how much they kill and how tough they are, but none of that matters if you lose the game. So they should probably have about a 50-100 point reduction in cost to bring them in line with MSU free-transport C:SM armies like yours.

It's kind of unfortunate that the real votes were overwhelmed by a bunch of trolls voting for Wraithknight nerfs, but that's what you get with internet polls. Lots of people just don't take them seriously and will vote for the obvious wrong answer because it's funny.

 Jackal wrote:

Actually. I propose 2:

1. The wraithknight should cost 400 points without changing its stats in the least. Further upgrades should be purchased as normal.

2. The wraithknight should only be taken in apocalypse games.

1: the wraithknight is fine as is.

If you have Grav or easy access to Str D, yeah.

2: apocalypse isnt a thing anymore.
Look at the force organisation chart, see that slot named "lord of war"?
That means apocalypse has been somewhat integrated into 40k now.

But only for some armies.

The Eldar Warhost allows for Wraithknights to be taken in much larger numbers than ever before.

Traditio, just drop me a PM of your "OP" units.
Just so I know what I can suggest.

As the way your going at the moment, even howling banshees will be OP soon.


And you do realise in a basic 1,850 game someone can run a warhound with turbolasers right?






Edit: kanluwen - this was what I pointed out earlier.
A single wraithknight isn't an issue, its when people run 2-3 it becomes an issue.

 Galef wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As it is now, probably just under 400pts, no more.

What's your standard of comparison?

Honestly, Imperial Kinghtss and the fact that the WK is much better. They should be priced similarly. The reasons I would say that IKs still need to be more are because:

1) T8 is roughly equal to AV12, but IK's are AV13 in the front and can get a 4++. Obviously FNP exists and armour saves, blah, blah, but if the initial dice roll to inflict damage is harder, that should count.
2) Even though Poison is nerfed vs GMCs, you can still wound whereas an IK is completely immune. Grav is WAAAAY more common than Haywire
3) IK's can have a D cc weapon AND a big gun at the same time. WK are more specialized as befits Eldar.
4) Way more armies have access to IKs. Sure anyone can technically ally with any other army, but the ally matrix ensures more armies will have "comfortable" access to IKs

The WK would still be "better" than any IK, but pricing them similarly helps

--

if an IK was 13/13/12 I would agree - but with 12 side armor and the fact that it needs to make melle to get it's points back I think the WK is much tougher...plus fortune. With Fortune up a WK gets a minimum of a 5+/5+/5+ against non instant death and D weapons. An IK can only ever get 1 save. It's a big difference in ability to stay on the board. Plus you standard melta gun can inflict 2+ HP on you too - WK are typically 1 wound at a time. WK should cost about 30-40 points more than an IK with sword and board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:
Traditio, just drop me a PM of your "OP" units.
Just so I know what I can suggest.

As the way your going at the moment, even howling banshees will be OP soon.


And you do realise in a basic 1,850 game someone can run a warhound with turbolasers right?






Edit: kanluwen - this was what I pointed out earlier.
A single wraithknight isn't an issue, its when people run 2-3 it becomes an issue.

Welp your avatar is a great place to start with OP units. Fatey is probably number 1 in my book.

Except my avatar is a regular lord of change, fatey has 2 heads

Nobody will take someone that thinks of Fateweaver as OP seriously. Just remember that.

 Jackal wrote:
Except my avatar is a regular lord of change, fatey has 2 heads

2 heads means 2 strong.

 Jackal wrote:
Except my avatar is a regular lord of change, fatey has 2 heads

Sorry looks the same too me. He could have two heads for all I know but hes messing with my mind to make me think hes just a LOC.

I'm just amused people think he's OP lol.
I always assumed belakor was the daemons big cheese.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody will take someone that thinks of Fateweaver as OP seriously. Just remember that.

So what you are trying to say is no one thinks fatey is OP? I really can't tell if you are serious...he is clearly at the top of the list of OP things in this game. Can't be serious.

 Jackal wrote:
Traditio, just drop me a PM of your "OP" units.

For any given selection x , if x is considered an auto-take, but is not considered a "tax," then x is probably OP/undercosted.

 Jackal wrote:

Edit: kanluwen - this was what I pointed out earlier.
A single wraithknight isn't an issue, its when people run 2-3 it becomes an issue.

Putting it bluntly, even a single Wraithknight can be an issue for an army that lacks the tools to counter it--especially if someone doesn't know they are going to be facing a GMC.

A Wraithknight should not be comparable in cost to a vehicle. It just shouldn't be. The benefits granted to GMCs are far, far too great.

Traditio wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Traditio, just drop me a PM of your "OP" units.

For any given selection x , if x is considered an auto-take, but is not considered a "tax," then x is probably OP/undercosted.

That's pretty vague. Things can be auto-take and not OP. You need to come up with more specific definitions. I feel like sanguinary priests are auto-take with BA. OP or NOP? Free rhinos are auto take with GSF. OP or NOP? I mean, why wouldn't you take them (if you own them)?

And there's personal preference auto-takes. That's another can of beans though, because I assume you mean competitively. However, competitively people are preparing for things and having lists ready to deal with your "OP" units, so if that's the case, then any comment in this thread that talks about "but the only way to deal with X is Y" is voided. Casual games have every possibility of dealing with my auto-take eldar rangers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

Edit: kanluwen - this was what I pointed out earlier.
A single wraithknight isn't an issue, its when people run 2-3 it becomes an issue.

Putting it bluntly, even a single Wraithknight can be an issue for an army that lacks the tools to counter it--especially if someone doesn't know they are going to be facing a GMC.

But that's kind of a different topic. Talk to your opponent about what you're both bringing.

A Wraithknight should not be comparable in cost to a vehicle. It just shouldn't be. The benefits granted to GMCs are far, far too great.

Specifically SHV, you mean, right?

Don't get me wrong kanluwen, some armies struggle badly, but going through, the same armies struggle against alot of things.
Orks spring to mind first off.
Book balance is the main issue for that though as Orks really got dealt a bad hand I feel.

And again I agree, you cannot compare a GMC or AV as they are vastly different.







Traditio, by your summary you consider librarians, farseers, rhinos etc to be OP as they are auto take units without a tax?

 Jackal wrote:
I'm just amused people think he's OP lol.
I always assumed belakor was the daemons big cheese.

Belakor is also OP. I didn't forget that.

Jackal wrote:Traditio, by your summary you consider librarians, farseers, rhinos etc to be OP as they are auto take units without a tax?

I think that if I made a poll, the majority of people would agree with me in saying that librarians and farseers have the potential to be extremely cheesy, depending on how you run them and what psychic powers you are using.

I don't think that rhinos are publicly considered auto-take.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody will take someone that thinks of Fateweaver as OP seriously. Just remember that.

So what you are trying to say is no one thinks fatey is OP? I really can't tell if you are serious...he is clearly at the top of the list of OP things in this game. Can't be serious.

For 300 points he's certainly NOT OP, and neither is Belakor for 50 more.
Can't wait until you hear of this formation called The Infernal Tetrad. You'll go insane!

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody will take someone that thinks of Fateweaver as OP seriously. Just remember that.

So what you are trying to say is no one thinks fatey is OP? I really can't tell if you are serious...he is clearly at the top of the list of OP things in this game. Can't be serious.

I've been playing Daemons since the got their own codex back in 5th ed (or was it 4th?). Fateweaver is very, VERY hard to use. He is essentially 300pts just for re-rolling the Warpstrom and getting 1 re-roll per turn. If you can get him into CC, he is dead....like Tau Fire Warriors in CC dead. Psychic powers are quite good, but FAR from reliable. Fateweaver only shows up in competitive Daemon lists because the Daemon player is irrationally afraid of a bad Warp Storm roll. All other "tactics" around using FW are secondary, although knowing a str D power is a nice bonus (but 3 Warp charge to cast is harsh)

IMO, Belakor is indeed better because he has specific powers every game AND is good in CC. He does, however disappear if anything concentrates even an medium amount of fire power his way. Laterly the best all-round Daemon HQ is a regular Lord of Change with Impossibiltiy robes. Durable, better in CC than a regular Bloodthirster, and a good caster.

Back on topic: A WraithKnight is a win-big, lose-big unit. In most games it fills a hole that Eldar have by being durable, able to deal with big targets and a great counter-assault unit. It fails against MSU and Grav spam. What makes it a problem is that the rest of the Eldar army is fantastic at dealing with MSU and Grav-spam. It's really a combination of things that a WK shouldn't be faulted for.

@ Jackal: While I agree that multiple WKs can be a big problem, I have personally seen it fail miserably. I ran 3 in a local "bring your best" tourney and faced 6 Dakka Flyrants. The Dakka Flyrant killed all 18 of my bikes in turn 1 and my WKs could do nothing else for the rest of the game besides kill rippers and Mucolids.