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Marine land speeders that aren't DA have the same issue.

Arson Fire wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
I think the problem with MC's is that most of them are woefully under costed pointwise.

Ever hear someone complain about a daemon Prince which is T5 and over 300 points if kitted out correctly?
Nope. Because they are easy to kill and cost a ton of points.

I'd say that 'Most of them' is a bit of a stretch.
Lets have a look.

Avatar of Khaine
Belakor
Bloodthirster (Codex Demons)
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury
Bloodthirster, Wrath of Khorne
Canoptek Spyder
Canoptek Tomb Sentinel
Carnifex
Cronos
Ctan Shard
Demon Prince
Dimachaeron
Dreadknight
Exocrine
Fateweaver
Ghostkeel
Great Unclean One
Harpy
Haruspex
Hive Crone
Hive Tyrant
Kastelan Robot
Keeper of Secrets
Ku'gath Plaguefather
Lord of Change
Maleceptor
Mawloc
Old One Eye
Riptide
Skarbrand
Sporocyst
Squiggoth
Stone-crusher Carnifex
Swarmlord
Talos
Tervigon
Toxicrene
Trygon
Trygon Prime
Tyrannofex
Tyrannocyte
Wraithlord

I've probably missed a few, but that's the vast majority of MCs in the game.
How many out of that list do people even care about?

You're absolutely right.... When I said "most" I more meant "most of the complaints" or "most of the MC's that lead to people complaining".... I field a lot of MC's and get rolled quite a bit , probably due to that... But then, I dont play Eldar or Tau...
I honestly think that the MC hate comes wholly from a few units being woefully under costed and overpowered.

You're absolutely right.... When I said "most" I more meant "most of the complaints" or "most of the MC's that lead to people complaining".... I field a lot of MC's and get rolled quite a bit , probably due to that... But then, I dont play Eldar or Tau...
I honestly think that the MC hate comes wholly from a few units being woefully under costed and overpowered.

That is EXACTLY the case for the most part. Though I think toe in cover needs to go away as does the discrepency between vehicles and MCs on the survivability department.

I don't care which way around it's done, it just needs to be consistent.

Area terrain as a concept exists for a good reason - it means we can model a 'forest' as a 5" x 6" area with 2-3 trees on it, but have it represent an area of dense, gnarly undergrowth that would be a ball-ache to make and even more of a ball-ache to move models through.

Therefore anything on that area should get a cover save, whether it's an artillery piece or a killa kan; unit type shouldn't matter (except possibly "flyer" but I don't think anyone's trying to argue that one).


And yes, I agree about the durability thing. The game today is drifting towards a bad place with regards to durability where things either instant-kill or are functionally immune to attack. Neither are interesting. Marine squads rapid-firing at one another take about 3 or more turns to destroy one another - long enough that it's not just 'you take me, I take you' like chess, and long enough for you to bloody do something about it if a unit is losing.

Its one reason I'm not a fan of the rules for titans. The gods of the battlefield are amazing models but lousy as game pieces - generally having enough firepower to blow one another to scrap in two exchanges of fire, and with no 'system damage' to track, they just turn the game into a case of mindlessly throwing dice at one another until one of you rolls a '6' for a deathblow.

The game just needs more access to Insta death. Have you ever seen what beast hunter shells do to an MC? Most Insta death are melee weapons only. Focus, relics and rare special weapons.

Beast hunter shells are str8 ap2 monster hunter small blasts, and usually on a tank commander with coaxial stubber for bs4 and quasi twinlinked. It destroys MCs and the game needs more options like this to offset all the melta, haywire, lance, tankhunter, armorbane, gauz, grav, tesla, ordinance wpns out there. It's just very lopsided on the special rules GW gives out. IMHO most dedicated melee units should have access to Insta death, melta should have reroll to wound MCs, monster hunter should be on any unit that has tankhunter.

I don't think it should be insta death for Monstrous creatures, they're animals so I'd like to see them respond like animals, I'd rather see 'Wrecked' replaced with Exhausted - Monstrous Creature is so beat up it refuses to move for a turn and
'Explodes!' with Rampage - Monstrous creature lashes out at anything within d6 using it's base strength value.

That doesn't make sense for most if not all the monstrous creatures though. You may as well had rules for troops becoming bitter towards their commanders and attacking their own side.

That could be fun.

Fratricide - on boxcars on leadership, half the unit (round down) rebels. That half charges the remaining half. If the squad contains any characters, they remain in the loyal half.

If the unit Rallies, remove all rebels. If the rebels defeat the loyalists, they leave the war zone (remove as routed).

Quite frankly I don't believe that vehicles and MCs should be treated so differently. Vehicles now have a WS(1 or 0) and "Wounds" value (HP), can have a Leadership for Psychic Pilot. The only difference between vehicles and regular profiles now is that vehicles have a different "Toughness" depending on what way they are facing. Therefore I propose the following changes

The armour penetration roll is removed in favour of the same "to wound" chart rules. Ie, T = S of attack + 3 =6+ to wound. At the same time also make the rule that a weapon cannot hurt an opponent who's T or AV is double the attack's strength. Therefore, Str3 cannot harm T6, Str 4 cannot harm T8 (as before), Str 6 or above is needed to harm AV10, and Str 8 to hit AV14 (as before). This simplifies things so every attack has the same chance of hurting as before. Things like Melta still get their 2D6, Lance still reduces AV to 12. It just makes things much clearer and streamlined. Also, to add a Str value, vehicles have strength equal to half their AV of the their front armour (rounding up). So a Land Raider would have Str 7, a Rhino Str 6, a Land Speeder Str 5. Obviously Walkers have their own strength as usual.

In addition, a glancing hit only removes a HP, as usual, but a Penetrating hit cannot destroy a vehicle with HP remaining. So you can't instant kill a vehicle. Instead an explodes results does the same as with SHV, remove D3 additional hullpoints. Which may or may not blow it up, but certainly adds resilience.

I would also argue however, that MCs are vulnerable to Instant Death from D weapons, Force, Instant Death weapons such as The Imperial Space Marine's Disintegrator for example, so it also balances out.

I think the easiest solution is to buff vehicles. Give vehicals armor saves and remove results like stunned and shaken which make it too easy to take a vehicle out of the game. Just change reults 1-3 on the damage table to (over-penetration)

Vehicals (tanks) should also have the ability to run units over as an assault action - using a function like the stomp table. Every model in the vehicals path at the end of it's full movement takes an initiative test - those that fail take a hit from the stomp table. Skimmers would lose this rule as their advatnage is the ability to jink vs low AP weapons that deny the armor save from other thanks.

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't make sense for most if not all the monstrous creatures though. You may as well had rules for troops becoming bitter towards their commanders and attacking their own side.

The exceptions you speak of should be vehicles anyway.
Dreadknights.
Wraithknights.
Tau Suits.

They're all strapped up in enough machinery to go BOOM.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't make sense for most if not all the monstrous creatures though. You may as well had rules for troops becoming bitter towards their commanders and attacking their own side.

The exceptions you speak of should be vehicles anyway.
Dreadknights.
Wraithknights.
Tau Suits.

They're all strapped up in enough machinery to go BOOM.

Tyranids, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes, the Avatar of Khaine and any MC I've forgotten should be vehicles?

Making Tau suits vehicles seems a bit clunky with things like Crisis, Stealth and Broadsides and Wraithknights are debatable.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't make sense for most if not all the monstrous creatures though. You may as well had rules for troops becoming bitter towards their commanders and attacking their own side.

The exceptions you speak of should be vehicles anyway.
Dreadknights.
Wraithknights.
Tau Suits.

They're all strapped up in enough machinery to go BOOM.

Tyranids, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes, the Avatar of Khaine and any MC I've forgotten should be vehicles?

Making Tau suits vehicles seems a bit clunky with things like Crisis, Stealth and Broadsides and Wraithknights are debatable.

Tyranids going berserk due to pain make perfect sense, all kinds of fun things happen when Nids fall out of contact with synapse and being shot to a fine red mist would constitute reason to fall out of synapse, I'd feel a bit bad because Nids have received some thorough shafting of late but going berserk and having a death circle could be a tactic in its own right, overwatching something that might kill everything nearby instead of quietly dying would add an interesting element to the Nids army.
Daemon Princes should have plenty of motive to go berserk without pain but if pain is the trigger it still fits.
The Avatar of Khaine is a construct with god essense inside so yes it should e able to go 'boom'.
Wraithknights are considered war-machines by their own fluff and should go boom like any other vehicle.
I would proverbially laugh my backside off if all Tau Suits became vehicles with the ability to explode, I might even consider buying Tau.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't make sense for most if not all the monstrous creatures though. You may as well had rules for troops becoming bitter towards their commanders and attacking their own side.

The exceptions you speak of should be vehicles anyway.
Dreadknights.
Wraithknights.
Tau Suits.

They're all strapped up in enough machinery to go BOOM.

Tyranids, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes, the Avatar of Khaine and any MC I've forgotten should be vehicles?

Making Tau suits vehicles seems a bit clunky with things like Crisis, Stealth and Broadsides and Wraithknights are debatable.

Tyranids going berserk due to pain make perfect sense, all kinds of fun things happen when Nids fall out of contact with synapse and being shot to a fine red mist would constitute reason to fall out of synapse, I'd feel a bit bad because Nids have received some thorough shafting of late but going berserk and having a death circle could be a tactic in its own right, overwatching something that might kill everything nearby instead of quietly dying would add an interesting element to the Nids army.
Daemon Princes should have plenty of motive to go berserk without pain but if pain is the trigger it still fits.
The Avatar of Khaine is a construct with god essense inside so yes it should e able to go 'boom'.
Wraithknights are considered war-machines by their own fluff and should go boom like any other vehicle.
I would proverbially laugh my backside off if all Tau Suits became vehicles with the ability to explode, I might even consider buying Tau.

Tyranids are under the complete control of the Hive Mind they literally don't have enough free will to go team killing.
No. You can't seriously say an immortal being that is almost impossible to kill will be pained enough to completely lose control. Beyond that they almost certainly learnt how to deal with pain becoming a daemon prince.
It's made of iron and lava and to my knowledge neither of those things explode by itself.
They also have a soul inside of them that controls it like a body the presence of machinery and the ability to explode does not make it a vehicle. Or are we going to say Space Marines are vehicles?

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't make sense for most if not all the monstrous creatures though. You may as well had rules for troops becoming bitter towards their commanders and attacking their own side.

The exceptions you speak of should be vehicles anyway.
Dreadknights.
Wraithknights.
Tau Suits.

They're all strapped up in enough machinery to go BOOM.

Tyranids, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes, the Avatar of Khaine and any MC I've forgotten should be vehicles?

Making Tau suits vehicles seems a bit clunky with things like Crisis, Stealth and Broadsides and Wraithknights are debatable.

Tyranids going berserk due to pain make perfect sense, all kinds of fun things happen when Nids fall out of contact with synapse and being shot to a fine red mist would constitute reason to fall out of synapse, I'd feel a bit bad because Nids have received some thorough shafting of late but going berserk and having a death circle could be a tactic in its own right, overwatching something that might kill everything nearby instead of quietly dying would add an interesting element to the Nids army.
Daemon Princes should have plenty of motive to go berserk without pain but if pain is the trigger it still fits.
The Avatar of Khaine is a construct with god essense inside so yes it should e able to go 'boom'.
Wraithknights are considered war-machines by their own fluff and should go boom like any other vehicle.
I would proverbially laugh my backside off if all Tau Suits became vehicles with the ability to explode, I might even consider buying Tau.

Tyranids are under the complete control of the Hive Mind they literally don't have enough free will to go team killing.
No. You can't seriously say an immortal being that is almost impossible to kill will be pained enough to completely lose control. Beyond that they almost certainly learnt how to deal with pain becoming a daemon prince.
It's made of iron and lava and to my knowledge neither of those things explode by itself.
They also have a soul inside of them that controls it like a body the presence of machinery and the ability to explode does not make it a vehicle. Or are we going to say Space Marines are vehicles?

Except going out of range is enough to make them lose contact and they don't fall to mindlock like servitors do, they get instinctive behaviors, so their contact is nowhere near as complete as you seem to believe, the Nid's fluff Synapse and their actual table-top synapse are two very different things.
Yes. I can and I would, but in this case think of it more as a 'Last Hurrah'. Nobody in the Chaos legions gives a damn about anybody else, a Daemon Lord that's about to lose its grip on the physical plane has a hissy fit and attacks anything and everything nearby on its way out.
Never heard of volcanoes? They're kind the posterboys for lava going boom. On top of that think about all the extra catalysts that are bringing it to that point of exploding - depleted-warheads, laser, beams, power weapons, helfrost canons, flames, warp charged attacks, there's plenty of reason for it to explode.
Space Marines aren't packing Lava and Iron as 100% of their actual body like some kind of waking frag grenade, and if that was about the Tau or the Wraithknighs there's still the factor of Space Marines being 90% squishy and more inclined to go 'splat' than 'boom', they aren't gremlins in a jar in a mech suit or a spirit controlled war-machine they're big dudes in armour, some frag type damage might be fitting as their armour gets shredded but not the kind of boom that a twenty foot tall mostly mechanical walker is going to make.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't make sense for most if not all the monstrous creatures though. You may as well had rules for troops becoming bitter towards their commanders and attacking their own side.

The exceptions you speak of should be vehicles anyway.
Dreadknights.
Wraithknights.
Tau Suits.

They're all strapped up in enough machinery to go BOOM.

Tyranids, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes, the Avatar of Khaine and any MC I've forgotten should be vehicles?

Making Tau suits vehicles seems a bit clunky with things like Crisis, Stealth and Broadsides and Wraithknights are debatable.

Tyranids going berserk due to pain make perfect sense, all kinds of fun things happen when Nids fall out of contact with synapse and being shot to a fine red mist would constitute reason to fall out of synapse, I'd feel a bit bad because Nids have received some thorough shafting of late but going berserk and having a death circle could be a tactic in its own right, overwatching something that might kill everything nearby instead of quietly dying would add an interesting element to the Nids army.
Daemon Princes should have plenty of motive to go berserk without pain but if pain is the trigger it still fits.
The Avatar of Khaine is a construct with god essense inside so yes it should e able to go 'boom'.
Wraithknights are considered war-machines by their own fluff and should go boom like any other vehicle.
I would proverbially laugh my backside off if all Tau Suits became vehicles with the ability to explode, I might even consider buying Tau.

Tyranids are under the complete control of the Hive Mind they literally don't have enough free will to go team killing.
No. You can't seriously say an immortal being that is almost impossible to kill will be pained enough to completely lose control. Beyond that they almost certainly learnt how to deal with pain becoming a daemon prince.
It's made of iron and lava and to my knowledge neither of those things explode by itself.
They also have a soul inside of them that controls it like a body the presence of machinery and the ability to explode does not make it a vehicle. Or are we going to say Space Marines are vehicles?

Except going out of range is enough to make them lose contact and they don't fall to mindlock like servitors do, they get instinctive behaviors, so their contact is nowhere near as complete as you seem to believe, the Nid's fluff Synapse and their actual table-top synapse are two very different things.
Yes. I can and I would, but in this case think of it more as a 'Last Hurrah'. Nobody in the Chaos legions gives a damn about anybody else, a Daemon Lord that's about to lose its grip on the physical plane has a hissy fit and attacks anything and everything nearby on its way out.
Never heard of volcanoes? They're kind the posterboys for lava going boom. On top of that think about all the extra catalysts that are bringing it to that point of exploding - depleted-warheads, laser, beams, power weapons, helfrost canons, flames, warp charged attacks, there's plenty of reason for it to explode.
Space Marines aren't packing Lava and Iron as 100% of their actual body like some kind of waking frag grenade, and if that was about the Tau or the Wraithknighs there's still the factor of Space Marines being 90% squishy and more inclined to go 'splat' than 'boom', they aren't gremlins in a jar in a mech suit or a spirit controlled war-machine they're big dudes in armour, some frag type damage might be fitting as their armour gets shredded but not the kind of boom that a twenty foot tall mostly mechanical walker is going to make.

We already have rules representing them losing contact in tt so making some silly new MC rule would be dumb. The contact lasts as long as there's any Synapse nearby. When it all goes the swarm is as good as dead.

It seems unlikely that the chosen favourites of Chaos throw tantrums. They don't care but an idiot knows that killing your own servants is bad.

Lava does not explode. It gets forced out as a result of pressure. Which does not apply to an Avatar.

They just have a fusion generator attached to their back. They're a lot more likely to go boom than a Wraithknight.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Instead of simply making MC's unplayable awful

More similar to vehicles but still better in every way is "unplayable awful"?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Instead of simply making MC's unplayable awful

More similar to vehicles but still better in every way is "unplayable awful"?

Most MC's don't need to get any worse.

And the ones that do need to get worse mostly aren't nerfed in relevant ways by creating a longshot chance that they'll go berserk and kill half their own army.

pm713 wrote:
We already have rules representing them losing contact in tt so making some silly new MC rule would be dumb. The contact lasts as long as there's any Synapse nearby. When it all goes the swarm is as good as dead.

It seems unlikely that the chosen favourites of Chaos throw tantrums. They don't care but an idiot knows that killing your own servants is bad.

Lava does not explode. It gets forced out as a result of pressure. Which does not apply to an Avatar.

They just have a fusion generator attached to their back. They're a lot more likely to go boom than a Wraithknight.

And those rules represent primal instincts making nids berserkers a reasonable step and yes, the nids do need new rules, they're laughable bad.

They don't get chosen for being demur little sissies either. They get chosen for sowing their chosen god's brand of Chaos in creative ways, be that 'blood for the blood god' 'excess' 'pestilence' or 'change' there's all kinds of fun reasons for them to lash out on their way out.

The avatar is lava contained by a psychic presence, a pressure vessel just like a volcano, sticking a few explosive rounds into it is probably going to make it go bang otherwise psyker attacks would be the only thing capable of making the psychic presence let go if its form at which point it would flop to the ground and the lava would flow out, again, making the death bubble.

You got me there, forgot about the generator.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:
We already have rules representing them losing contact in tt so making some silly new MC rule would be dumb. The contact lasts as long as there's any Synapse nearby. When it all goes the swarm is as good as dead.

It seems unlikely that the chosen favourites of Chaos throw tantrums. They don't care but an idiot knows that killing your own servants is bad.

Lava does not explode. It gets forced out as a result of pressure. Which does not apply to an Avatar.

They just have a fusion generator attached to their back. They're a lot more likely to go boom than a Wraithknight.

And those rules represent primal instincts making nids berserkers a reasonable step and yes, the nids do need new rules, they're laughable bad.

They don't get chosen for being demur little sissies either. They get chosen for sowing their chosen god's brand of Chaos in creative ways, be that 'blood for the blood god' 'excess' 'pestilence' or 'change' there's all kinds of fun reasons for them to lash out on their way out.

The avatar is lava contained by a psychic presence, a pressure vessel just like a volcano, sticking a few explosive rounds into it is probably going to make it go bang otherwise psyker attacks would be the only thing capable of making the psychic presence let go if its form at which point it would flop to the ground and the lava would flow out, again, making the death bubble.

You got me there, forgot about the generator.

A. I said a new rule as in a new general rule which doesn't help Nids. B. That kind of rule would make Tyranids worse.

At the person who killed/hurt them. They aren't stupid. Making them all team killers is ridiculous.

Not really. It might bleed lava a bit but it won't explode any more than a person does from a cut. Plus things that explode are generally burn up before that. Besides that assumes the Avatar dies normally it might just fade away upon death. It is a Daemon after all.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:
We already have rules representing them losing contact in tt so making some silly new MC rule would be dumb. The contact lasts as long as there's any Synapse nearby. When it all goes the swarm is as good as dead.

It seems unlikely that the chosen favourites of Chaos throw tantrums. They don't care but an idiot knows that killing your own servants is bad.

Lava does not explode. It gets forced out as a result of pressure. Which does not apply to an Avatar.

They just have a fusion generator attached to their back. They're a lot more likely to go boom than a Wraithknight.

And those rules represent primal instincts making nids berserkers a reasonable step and yes, the nids do need new rules, they're laughable bad.

They don't get chosen for being demur little sissies either. They get chosen for sowing their chosen god's brand of Chaos in creative ways, be that 'blood for the blood god' 'excess' 'pestilence' or 'change' there's all kinds of fun reasons for them to lash out on their way out.

The avatar is lava contained by a psychic presence, a pressure vessel just like a volcano, sticking a few explosive rounds into it is probably going to make it go bang otherwise psyker attacks would be the only thing capable of making the psychic presence let go if its form at which point it would flop to the ground and the lava would flow out, again, making the death bubble.

You got me there, forgot about the generator.

A. I said a new rule as in a new general rule which doesn't help Nids. B. That kind of rule would make Tyranids worse.

At the person who killed/hurt them. They aren't stupid. Making them all team killers is ridiculous.

Not really. It might bleed lava a bit but it won't explode any more than a person does from a cut. Plus things that explode are generally burn up before that. Besides that assumes the Avatar dies normally it might just fade away upon death. It is a Daemon after all.

Nids are already the worst. The chance to do damage through overwatch would be a blessing to them even if it comes with the risk of tearing their own guys to shreds, further, it doesn't take a huge amount of effort to stay more than six inches away from your own guys, even if it's a synapse generator you have a good twelve inches to work with, even spawned gaunts and genestealers would have a chance of moving away from their brood mother.

If the person who killed the lord got them in close combat they'd cop it too I did say everything, and again with the bubble effect it'd be the allies stupid enough to get in the way, if you're stupid enough to be pressed up against a demon lord when he gets dragged back into the warp sympathy will be short no matter what fate you suffer.

So now you're trying to say this lava demon can slowly lose its grip on its physical form due to abuse? Then it might lose its grip and rampage and should be represented as a rampage bubble. If it is losing its body due to having chunks blown out it should be represented as a blast bubble. If it burns up it would still be something akin to standing in the path of a flamer or heavy flamer and something you don't want to be close to, again, represented by a bubble effect.

FYI -> The Avatar is not a Daemon like a Bloodletter, it doesn't fade away. Its a huge statue representative of Khaine powered by the presence of Khaine, its given Daemon rules to represent that it is a warp entity. The lava and fire appear because those are representive of Khaine as a violent god of war.
Said that, Avatars do explode but not enough to do damage. There's a story in Ultramarines section of 5th and 6th Ed, where Calgar kills one in personal combat. It explodes upon death but no damage is dealt to anyone in particular Calgar whi is wounded, armour damaged and literally at ground 0.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:
We already have rules representing them losing contact in tt so making some silly new MC rule would be dumb. The contact lasts as long as there's any Synapse nearby. When it all goes the swarm is as good as dead.

It seems unlikely that the chosen favourites of Chaos throw tantrums. They don't care but an idiot knows that killing your own servants is bad.

Lava does not explode. It gets forced out as a result of pressure. Which does not apply to an Avatar.

They just have a fusion generator attached to their back. They're a lot more likely to go boom than a Wraithknight.

And those rules represent primal instincts making nids berserkers a reasonable step and yes, the nids do need new rules, they're laughable bad.

They don't get chosen for being demur little sissies either. They get chosen for sowing their chosen god's brand of Chaos in creative ways, be that 'blood for the blood god' 'excess' 'pestilence' or 'change' there's all kinds of fun reasons for them to lash out on their way out.

The avatar is lava contained by a psychic presence, a pressure vessel just like a volcano, sticking a few explosive rounds into it is probably going to make it go bang otherwise psyker attacks would be the only thing capable of making the psychic presence let go if its form at which point it would flop to the ground and the lava would flow out, again, making the death bubble.

You got me there, forgot about the generator.

A. I said a new rule as in a new general rule which doesn't help Nids. B. That kind of rule would make Tyranids worse.

At the person who killed/hurt them. They aren't stupid. Making them all team killers is ridiculous.

Not really. It might bleed lava a bit but it won't explode any more than a person does from a cut. Plus things that explode are generally burn up before that. Besides that assumes the Avatar dies normally it might just fade away upon death. It is a Daemon after all.

Nids are already the worst. The chance to do damage through overwatch would be a blessing to them even if it comes with the risk of tearing their own guys to shreds, further, it doesn't take a huge amount of effort to stay more than six inches away from your own guys, even if it's a synapse generator you have a good twelve inches to work with, even spawned gaunts and genestealers would have a chance of moving away from their brood mother.

If the person who killed the lord got them in close combat they'd cop it too I did say everything, and again with the bubble effect it'd be the allies stupid enough to get in the way, if you're stupid enough to be pressed up against a demon lord when he gets dragged back into the warp sympathy will be short no matter what fate you suffer.

So now you're trying to say this lava demon can slowly lose its grip on its physical form due to abuse? Then it might lose its grip and rampage and should be represented as a rampage bubble. If it is losing its body due to having chunks blown out it should be represented as a blast bubble. If it burns up it would still be something akin to standing in the path of a flamer or heavy flamer and something you don't want to be close to, again, represented by a bubble effect.

Tell that to a Chaos player or Martel.

Unless they're a tough fighter.... Being near a Daemon Prince doesn't = stupid. There are several reasons to be near a Daemon Prince.

No. Because whatever happens to it in order to make a weird bubble effect or rampage or whatever you have to greatly exaggerate what happens. The rule is a bad idea and that's that.

These kinds of problems are most easily solved by points adjustments or complete rules rewrites. Partial rules add-ons don't seem like a good idea.

pm713 wrote:

Tell that to a Chaos player or Martel.

Unless they're a tough fighter.... Being near a Daemon Prince doesn't = stupid. There are several reasons to be near a Daemon Prince.

No. Because whatever happens to it in order to make a weird bubble effect or rampage or whatever you have to greatly exaggerate what happens. The rule is a bad idea and that's that.

Pressed up against a Daemon Prince as he gets dragged back into the warp is different to just being close in general, you know, like when important things get sucked up the vacuum cleaner because they were too close to the dirt, just plain old got in the way, or he just grabs something in an effort to stick around, an armfull of somethings even.
You gotta learn the difference between an actual bad rule and a rule you don't like, you haven't come up with a decent argument yet, just added more things that should go boom to the list.