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Maybe Warhammer 40k little Template sized?

From the videos and pictures released, HEd2 = 1", HEd3 = 2", HEd6 = 3", HE 2d6 = 4". Diameters, not radius. BUT i'm not 100% sure, DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER

But Warlord is playing their cards close to their chest. Launch Date is September 17 so we have less than four weeks til we know all the changes anyway.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
The Nips are on added to the russkis, the brits, the US and the krauts in the core rulebook though so you don't need a separate book anymore

Well, if you want more than the "starter" army list with like 4 pages of stuff, then yeah, you'd want their army book.

AFAIK the "starter" lists in the book will include all units that are in any of the 1000 point starter sets, so that people can buy a starter army, dice, and the rulebook and get playing.

May not be a rules thread, but since this is an edition, it'd be silly if they didn't update an issue, even if it's debatable how severe that issue is.

Did anyone see any confirmation on how they were making MMGs worth while?

Also, how many of these changes have been folded into Konflict 47? Or is that a separate book that refers back to Bolt Action?

Definitely like the changes to officers though, that was much needed.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
The Nips are on added to the russkis, the brits, the US and the krauts in the core rulebook though so you don't need a separate book anymore

Well, if you want more than the "starter" army list with like 4 pages of stuff, then yeah, you'd want their army book.

AFAIK the "starter" lists in the book will include all units that are in any of the 1000 point starter sets, so that people can buy a starter army, dice, and the rulebook and get playing.

Well, i admit that in my opinion they're basically enough to play the game very well. Books are just a little add which real interest is to play something esle than 1944-45. Or to get even more special rules but the aim is then less positive.

Templates' sizes should be good if it reveals to be true.

Finally, i doubt the officiers' changes are of any use. Basically apart from giving soviets virtually an even more outnumbering army, that's no great deal. Gonna shake tactics up nevrthless.

Finally i won't say you guys are wrong on this point: the mortar issue is real. But if there's enough complaining i fancy they are not to leave it unchanged.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
The Nips are on added to the russkis, the brits, the US and the krauts in the core rulebook though so you don't need a separate book anymore

Well, if you want more than the "starter" army list with like 4 pages of stuff, then yeah, you'd want their army book.

AFAIK the "starter" lists in the book will include all units that are in any of the 1000 point starter sets, so that people can buy a starter army, dice, and the rulebook and get playing.

Well, i admit that in my opinion they're basically enough to play the game very well. Books are just a little add which real interest is to play something esle than 1944-45. Or to get even more special rules but the aim is then less positive.

Templates' sizes should be good if it reveals to be true.

Finally, i doubt the officiers' changes are of any use. Basically apart from giving soviets virtually an even more outnumbering army, that's no great deal. Gonna shake tactics up nevrthless.

Finally i won't say you guys are wrong on this point: the mortar issue is real. But if there's enough complaining i fancy they are not to leave it unchanged.

You say that, but being able to guarantee several units activating at once will be a huge deal for an army that is built to take advantage of it. That's always been an issue with Bolt Action though, because you never really know who's going to move next. Having a guaranteed "I can move X units at once when I absolutely need to" could give you the ability to really swing hard in a turn. For example, running a transport up, guaranteeing you get the next order to kick the infantry up and move them to cover, and then guaranteeing a final order to drop smoke on the transport to ensure its safety till next turn.

See your point, you convinced me.

Though it will fix the fact we're not certain at all who will play next i'm still concerned about the soviets and there free squad: they have a huge advantage and are going to gain the one of an army virtually even pore overhelming! As USA, brits and so on you're gonna match but i dread that the poor german army could have issues with making a real profit of it then.

WARNING: SO AS NOT TO GET SHOT BY HALF THE COMMUNITY AND HAVE THE THREAD END UP AS A RULE DISCUSSION I EXPLAIN HERE THE ISSUE ENCOUNTERED BY GERMANY ESPECIALLY AGAINST SOVIETS IMO, FOR MATTERS OF UNDERSTANDING. THANKS.

germany is either too costy in equipement and tanks or totally lacking the quality to match the soviet list which prices are more profitable according to ground efficacity, thus they virtually have no special rules.

The free soviet units gives the opportunity to definitly outnumber roughly 600 points at 500 your foe in little games. In larger and in general, since that's a big squad they somewhat fill you needs in infantry (added to the basic army chart) for free allowing you to put roughly 100 points of support units while germany still struggles to bring both on the table.

That said, i'd be a great chance if germany got a rule improving this officier bonus. Make it powerful and they should already feel better.

Looks like the changes as seen in this demo game consist of

LMG = 4 shots (now 36" instead of 30")
MMG = 5 shots
HMG = not mentioned

Down order = -2 to hit (instead of -1)

No more shaped charge rule -1 to hit rule.

18" range for assault rifle (instead of 24")

Captain and Major give their morale boost to a range up to 12" (instead of 6")
1st or 2nd LT still 6" range

Captain and Major can order two other units to ‘’act’’ at the same time. For example, you pick from the pouch an order dice, choose to activate the Captain, then you take 2 order dice from the pouch and give order to two units (who didn’t activate) within 12".
1st and 2nd LT, same as Captain or Major but 1 order dice within 6".

Transports can fire one weapon system even when empty.

Vehicle and infantry flamethrowers need to hit first (ignore cover) modifiers. Vehicle flamethrowers officially 12" range.

Air Observer - incoming air support - if the airplane receives 3 or more hits while coming to its target, the airstrike is over and done with (3 shots, instead of 5, to drive airplane away)

Artillery Observer - when rolling 1 on the chart to see if it comes or not, now you scatter 3D6" so you see where it lands (instead of opponent choosing anywhere within 24")

Dense/area terrain - cannot see from one side to another

If you roll double 1 on a command check, you can remove D6 pins.

Rally order: command check unmodified (ignore pins)

Recce: you can’t recce when you have an order die already assigned to you.

If you leave your order dice Down you lose D3 pins at the end of turn

Tanks on Advance have a limited target selection (no more Shermans spraying 4 targets)

God damn it those are epic changes! I really feel sweet hearing it!

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
God damn it those are epic changes! I really feel sweet hearing it!

Yeah I'm feeling really really very good about the new edition and I cannot wait to get the rulebook.

I'm reassured about officer activation: you basiclly do not overplay units multiple times. And the LMG is sweet too. If they don't make it too much costy.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I'm reassured about officer activation: you basiclly do not overplay units multiple times. And the LMG is sweet too. If they don't make it too much costy.

No points values are changing.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
See your point, you convinced me.

Though it will fix the fact we're not certain at all who will play next i'm still concerned about the soviets and there free squad: they have a huge advantage and are going to gain the one of an army virtually even pore overhelming! As USA, brits and so on you're gonna match but i dread that the poor german army could have issues with making a real profit of it then.

WARNING: SO AS NOT TO GET SHOT BY HALF THE COMMUNITY AND HAVE THE THREAD END UP AS A RULE DISCUSSION I EXPLAIN HERE THE ISSUE ENCOUNTERED BY GERMANY ESPECIALLY AGAINST SOVIETS IMO, FOR MATTERS OF UNDERSTANDING. THANKS.

germany is either too costy in equipement and tanks or totally lacking the quality to match the soviet list which prices are more profitable according to ground efficacity, thus they virtually have no special rules.

The free soviet units gives the opportunity to definitly outnumber roughly 600 points at 500 your foe in little games. In larger and in general, since that's a big squad they somewhat fill you needs in infantry (added to the basic army chart) for free allowing you to put roughly 100 points of support units while germany still struggles to bring both on the table.

That said, i'd be a great chance if germany got a rule improving this officier bonus. Make it powerful and they should already feel better.

The free infantry soviets get is a basic inexperienced rifle squad. They don't even have access to an LMG. While they can be nice to baby sit an objective, they're not really a game changer as they need to be watched over by a commissar or officer. The free SU 76 or Zis 3 are recommended for campaign games. As far as I know you need your opponent's permission to do that, and they are not considered "tourny legal".

As for equipment, German equipment costs more because it's more effective, and as far as I'm concerned, may as well be considered their special rules. Assault rifles, even with only 18", are an excellent value, and Panzerfausts are even more amazing with the fact that shaped charge doesn't affect their accuracy anymore. Panzerfausts combined with AR's and their leadership rules mean Germans are nasty on the attack and will help them quite a bit. Plus, the German book is being reprinted, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some new national rules or something to give them a bit of a boost.


As far as rule changes are concerned, all of them are very welcome and needed changes, I'm just still on the fence about LMG's and MMG's. That doesn't feel like enough of a bonus to justify their cost and, more importantly, needing two men to fire them. Granted, Germans effectively are packing MMG's in their rifle squads now, but it's still not the big change we were hoping for. I really feel like they needed to go up 2 dice a weapon (so LMG base 5, MMG base 6) to really have made them worth their points.

Oh well, I'll still run them as I'll usually be providing both armies and can balance it, but you'll still be seeing tourny minded players leaving their LMG's and MMG's at home.

36" 4 shots at 40 points (2 men and LMG) is so good I cannot see why anyone would take 4 dudes with rifles over them.

- Being able to reliably put pins into not only the enemy's deployment zone but also deep into their deployment zone on turn 1 is absolutely fabulous.
- In scenarios where you have to move on board, you can hit units that ran onto the board when you advance. It is an absolutely tremendous game changer.
- 18" short range coming from a squad means down and in cover units at a fairly lengthy distance you will reliably be able to pin and kill with volume of fire, without it reaching impossible shots.

FOR TWENTY POINTS!

I honestly think they may have overpowered LMGs. They literally might be the best weapon in the game now.

 judgedoug wrote:
They literally might be the best weapon in the game now.

Best to err in that direction when it comes to the most tactically relevant weapon of the period.

This is going to be a blast to play.

[quote=MrMoustaffa 694554 8856037 741047c90bb787ecc9f836e6984386e2.png

Plus, the German book is being reprinted, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some new national rules or something to give them a bit of a boost.

The national rules change for Germans has been confirmed on the BA site, but I haven't heard exactly what they have been changed to. Might make light machines guns well worth taking. I often bring an FJ squad built for squad fire support with just two LMGs and a sgt with a rifle. They will be able to put out a drek load of fire now.

I believe squad training is now on a 2+
unconfirmed, however.

Eh, so long as we can now compete with certain 'free unit' armies (looking at you, Soviet Irregulars SMG unit).

Playing Early to Mid War Germans is a bit if an issue as you lack access to AR's and Panzerfaust, so you have none of the advantages that make the later war German force competitive.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eh, so long as we can now compete with certain 'free unit' armies (looking at you, Soviet Irregulars SMG unit).

Playing Early to Mid War Germans is a bit if an issue as you lack access to AR's and Panzerfaust, so you have none of the advantages that make the later war German force competitive.

Well now we got 36" 5 dice LMGs with which to mow down unsuspecting Russians in 1941 with.
And late war Germans now only have 18" Assault Rifles.

(also, the free Soviet unit is an Inexperienced Rifle Squad - aka about as useful as just a free order dice, as they tend to disappear rather quickly unless you babysit them )

Thanks, I forgot how many shots I actually got. My Casino FJs are going to be rocking the place on the defense. It might actually be possible to put together an actual machine gun company worthy of the name. I will have to look and see if my book on them actually does the TOE of a Machine Gun Regiment.

master of ordinance wrote:Eh, so long as we can now compete with certain 'free unit' armies (looking at you, Soviet Irregulars SMG unit).

Playing Early to Mid War Germans is a bit if an issue as you lack access to AR's and Panzerfaust, so you have none of the advantages that make the later war German force competitive.

Soviets don't get a free SMG unit. Again, it is an inexperienced rifle squad. No LMG's, no SMG's, just rifles. I think you get AT grenades and that's it. That won't change going into V2 more than likely since that special rule is in the soviet book as well (which I have and can quote verbatim in about 5 hours if you really want me to).

Soviets do not get any of the following for free

-SMG infantry
-AT guns
-tanks
-Assault guns
-anything other than a rifle squad

It was a recommended homebrew rule for campaigns. Nothing else.

You do have a point about EW Germans however, I believe their new rules (if they get any) will reflect that better. I know in K47 they have a new rule where they get a bonus to their order test if it involves moving toward the enemy (I.E. counterattacking, something the Germans were well known for even in the closing days of the war) I wouldn't be surprised to see that rule show up in BA V2.

judgedoug wrote:36" 4 shots at 40 points (2 men and LMG) is so good I cannot see why anyone would take 4 dudes with rifles over them.

- Being able to reliably put pins into not only the enemy's deployment zone but also deep into their deployment zone on turn 1 is absolutely fabulous.
- In scenarios where you have to move on board, you can hit units that ran onto the board when you advance. It is an absolutely tremendous game changer.
- 18" short range coming from a squad means down and in cover units at a fairly lengthy distance you will reliably be able to pin and kill with volume of fire, without it reaching impossible shots.

FOR TWENTY POINTS!

I honestly think they may have overpowered LMGs. They literally might be the best weapon in the game now.

I am turning into Peregrine, may Andy rest my soul.

-4 shots at 40 points

I can do that with 4 rifle men already, granted for 12" less range, but on a properly made table chances to use that long range will be relatively few.

-- In scenarios where you have to move on board, you can hit units that ran onto the board when you advance. It is an absolutely tremendous game changer.

In this scenario, at an absolutely base value, you're hitting on 5's (long range, moving) not to mention cover (bumping that up to 6's). Now, this is also ignoring ADDITIONAL modifiers, such as small team, hard cover (which I believe obscures better now with a higher penalty to hit) smoke, and/or going to ground.

I mean, shooting to hit at 6's is pretty common in Bolt Action, but I'm not floored.

The big thing that will make me decide whether they're fair or not is the German "Hitler's Buzzsaw" rule and if it changes. Because several German squads could take 2 LMG's, if they get anything on top of one extra die per LMG, a German rifle squad with 2 LMG's could have an absolutely insane amount of firepower.

I'm just not sold. I really felt like LMG"s base needed a buff of two dice (making an LMG base 5 dice) with MMG's being buffed to 6 or 7. I get why they didn't buff MMG's that high (vehicles packing MGs would be pretty nuts) but at least infantry MMG's needed something to make them more scary. Realistically an MMG unit that's well dug in should be an absolutely terrifying thing to see across the table, but as they sit in the game right now, they don't really scare much. Worst case scenario you'll maybe lose half the squad, and take only ONE PIN. One pin, from one of the most terrifying weapons to face as an infantryman. Why they don't have a way to generate extra pins, at least for dedicated MMG teams, really confuses me. Without it, there really isn't any reason to take them instead of something else.

I would say LMGs are in the "decent but not an auto-take" camp. I definitely wouldn't consider them the best weapon in the game.

Except for Germans. They are kind of scary now and rightfully so.

At first hitler's buzzsaw should apply to vehicules too in my opinion but i can ubderstand a panzer 4 with 3 of them would be a pain to cope with.

Initiative training at 2+ is reasonnable. Let's face it a chance out of two to just save the commander is basically useless.

Finally i like the idea of counter attack rule: not only would it probably powerful but what's more unlike the free soviet squad it would be realistic.

I can understand the hull mounted and co-axial 34 not having the extra dice since the 34 wasn't quite the bullet hose the 42 was. But the pintle mounted MG42 should definitely have it.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I can understand the hull mounted and co-axial 34 not having the extra dice since the 34 wasn't quite the bullet hose the 42 was. But the pintle mounted MG42 should definitely have it.

Well a 1200 shot/minute aircolled mg barely reaches half of it, so actually the difference is small: the mg42 was fearsome, but it was reduced to short bursts to avoid overheating. . What's more even witht the well stabilized tripod, such a fire rate wouldn't allow for much accurency and i jut let you imagine the ammo bill by the end of the week!

But you don't want accuracy with a tripod mounted MG...

Its mounted on a tripod to allow it to easily cover selected lanes of fire and to easily hose those areas with fire. Several of these will be sighted to provide interlocking fields of fire. During enemy attacks fire would be laid down along those lanes of approach, in bursts of fire.

Its the same reason troops used to loosen the bipod on the Bren gun - To reduce accuracy and allow the weapon to provide a larger 'beaten' zone.

Big P wrote:
But you don't want accuracy with a tripod mounted MG...

Its mounted on a tripod to allow it to easily cover selected lanes of fire and to easily hose those areas with fire. Several of these will be sighted to provide interlocking fields of fire. During enemy attacks fire would be laid down along those lanes of approach, in bursts of fire.

Its the same reason troops used to loosen the bipod on the Bren gun - To reduce accuracy and allow the weapon to provide a larger 'beaten' zone.

Good add, but that still goes the same way as i

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

judgedoug wrote:36" 4 shots at 40 points (2 men and LMG) is so good I cannot see why anyone would take 4 dudes with rifles over them.

- Being able to reliably put pins into not only the enemy's deployment zone but also deep into their deployment zone on turn 1 is absolutely fabulous.
- In scenarios where you have to move on board, you can hit units that ran onto the board when you advance. It is an absolutely tremendous game changer.
- 18" short range coming from a squad means down and in cover units at a fairly lengthy distance you will reliably be able to pin and kill with volume of fire, without it reaching impossible shots.

FOR TWENTY POINTS!

I honestly think they may have overpowered LMGs. They literally might be the best weapon in the game now.

I am turning into Peregrine, may Andy rest my soul.

-4 shots at 40 points

I can do that with 4 rifle men already, granted for 12" less range, but on a properly made table chances to use that long range will be relatively few.

-- In scenarios where you have to move on board, you can hit units that ran onto the board when you advance. It is an absolutely tremendous game changer.

In this scenario, at an absolutely base value, you're hitting on 5's (long range, moving) not to mention cover (bumping that up to 6's). Now, this is also ignoring ADDITIONAL modifiers, such as small team, hard cover (which I believe obscures better now with a higher penalty to hit) smoke, and/or going to ground.

I mean, shooting to hit at 6's is pretty common in Bolt Action, but I'm not floored.

If I can reach across the table on turn 1 and pin you on 6's, I will take it. From turn 1 I'll be able to control your movement. That is just scary scary good to me, for only a 20 point weapon.
And your recitation of modifiers for long range, cover, etc, is all very true - and LMG short range is now 18 inches. Eighteen inches! The vast majority of firefights in Bolt Action take place at roughly that range band - LMG's being at short range will almost certainly mean hitting on 4's and 5's at eighteen inches!

I mean, I'm literally not seeing any negatives. For 40 points I'd much rather have two guys spitting 4 dice at 18/36" than four guys spitting 4 dice at 12/24". Controlling movement and your opponent is vital. The ability to put one or two pins on units before they themselves are within range is so good because now you're forcing your opponent to 50% chance or less of their unit even activating.

And as mentioned, two-LMG Fallschirmjager squads are absolutely insane. NCO w/ SMG, two loaders with rifle, and two LMG, veterans, are, what, 108 points? 10 shots at 36" on five veteran men who can even hold their own in a close assault.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I can understand the hull mounted and co-axial 34 not having the extra dice since the 34 wasn't quite the bullet hose the 42 was. But the pintle mounted MG42 should definitely have it.

Well a 1200 shot/minute aircolled mg barely reaches half of it, so actually the difference is small: the mg42 was fearsome, but it was reduced to short bursts to avoid overheating. . What's more even witht the well stabilized tripod, such a fire rate wouldn't allow for much accurency and i jut let you imagine the ammo bill by the end of the week!

The principle behind the MG42 is that the Germans believed a machine gunner only had a few seconds of opportunity to fire so it was best to fill the air with as much lead as possible during those short bursts.

And yes, ammo was always a concern with squads carrying one. It's why you see a lot of late war soldiers laden with Machine gun ammo belts like a mule.