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Oggthrok wrote:

In contrast, if I buy a $50 Leman Russ I get a much larger, high quality model. And the first thing I think, after building it for a month, is that it's of little use without two more to fill out a squadron, or at least one to make an HQ unit, and it needs six or seven boxes of guard to go with it to make an army...

I don't know, a single Leman Russ is more than a little use in a 500pt game, and bit of a monster in a 250pt game. I think part of the reason why people are freaking out over the cost of gaming in 40k is that they are just assuming that because there are like a dozen different factions and each faction has dozens of different units each with a great variety of upgrades and that large combinations get substantial game bonuses that you have to buy it all to play. Yeah if you have 7 leman Russes you get some bonus or another in some formation but you don't have to play on that scale, you can play 40k with just one russ and a squad or two. You have the rest of your life to build up to the big scale armies, why not start small to start with?

The good thing about 40k is that there is always room to grow. This is what draws me to 40k over Xwing, either can be played on small scale with just a few models but I think with only like 3 factions and a dozen different ships, X-wing is quite limited in how far you can take it. After a few years you have most all the ships, the game play will get samey, and have nowhere else to go with it.

As people have already said there are many alternatives, a big one that comes to mind is bolt action, pretty popular and much cheaper.

Besides, with all hobbies, is ALWAYS expensive to get into, thats not going to change.

There are ways to get the models much cheeper, TWS sells GW stuff for 20% off. All things considering, GW is getting much better with prices, still really high, but getting better.

This is not a cheap hobby

 SolarCross wrote:
This is speculation but I would hazard a guess that if and when 8th ed hits, it will just be 7th ed rules, + errata + FAQs + some supplementary material and it won't invalidate at all your 7th ed book or mean you have to buy it to stay current.

You know exact same idea was tossed around before 7th ed came around...And we all know how that ended up.

Word is Tau was going to get beefier update but then 8th ed came around quickened because 7th ed was deemed of not a success. So I wouldn't count too much to it. GW wants to sell stuff and stuff sells most when they are brand new. If they release new book it generates instant income. When not they sell in small streams that are annoyance to warehouses.

 Real News wrote:
To be honest I don't think GW cares about attracting new players. They're kept afloat by the people who spend $5000 a year or more on miniatures. Some people collect every army and buy every kit that GW produces. When a new codex comes out and the power creeps forward, the competitive players just buy a new army from whatever faction is GW's flavour of the week. No point in playing a game that you can't win, after all.

Meanwhile forgeworld provides a way for the most "dedicated" fans to soar above the rest of us peasants. Now they have their own 40k with better minis and better rules, and it just happens to require three or four times as many models. So the 30K elites look down on us from their ivory towers and snicker while we struggle with our broken game and its ever-shifting, perpetually obsolete ruleset.

Luckily fans have run out of excuses to continue "supporting" GW, and Chinese pirates are taking full advantage of the situation.

As far as the prices, you got it right before your eyes. As far as the behavor, I just can't figure out how they urned this way.

But actually, i pesonnally own like 75% of my army from second hand market and that's all fine for much cheaper.

Otherwise, you can get on to other games and companies: many fabulous other games exist and prove to be by far less costy.

Hopefully, I read they were little by little gnawed by smaller but at under all aspects better companies. Just hope those aren't going to end up the same way. But it's up to us then to force the decrease in prices. Too expensive? Ok, I make turn away and look somewhere else. If every guy made this way, they'd to react so as not to go bankrupt. And that's where the kind of guy Real news spoke about becomes a pain: they allow GW to strive on this track.

Zimko wrote:
At least with magic you can play a draft tournament for $20 and still end the day with some new cards.

This creates a side decision, of whether you are going to money draft to keep a chase rare that passes, or if you're going to power draft to win the event.

Thing is we know the last three years have seen a 14% drop in model sales people very clearly are buying less GW and more from someone else.

Roundtree got lucky this year because total war was a massive smash hit but he's not going to have royalties like that to plug the gaps every quarter.

It's catch 22 he needs to drop prices and increase sales volume while growing his customer base but if he does profits will drop in the short term decimating his share price, damned either way.

The problem is GW just focuses on selling new models which cost money to develop.And feeds the 'churn and burn' ethos of the company Chairman.

Where as if they focused on rules quality, to add value to the existing minatures.
They could increase sales volumes and reduce overheads , and follow the steady expansion of other companies in the same market.

Lanrak wrote:
The problem is GW just focuses on selling new models which cost money to develop.And feeds the 'churn and burn' ethos of the company Chairman.

Where as if they focused on rules quality, to add value to the existing minatures.
They could increase sales volumes and reduce overheads , and follow the steady expansion of other companies in the same market.

The rules and gameplay are a major issue. When you ask for premium dollars for your kits and rules, but put out an inconsistent mess between rubbish and gold, in a mess of codex, pdf, white dwarf, kit exclusive, expansion books, you will turn off any new player from even wanting to attempt to try the game.

Because it takes a serious amount of effort and research to even determine wtf you need to even play correctly.

I imagine gw is trying to fix that with 8th, but we will see.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It's the whole "it's my money and I don't care" mentality that enables GW's price gouging. Again, people do give you funny looks for spending 35 on a 2 inch plastic figure, because it is excessively expensive.

DUDE. We are grown men playing with plastic toy soldiers. I think that is why we are would get funny looks from people. Thing is I haven't got any funny looks for spending $35 on a 2 inch plastic figure because it's expensive. The funny I look I got from my parents when they were alive was because their "boy" is a man now playing with plastic toy soldiers still. Not the price.

You wouldn't mock the guy for dropping 500 on a roulette table openly but you will think it was a poor choice of money. I know a guy who blows 500 a week on bullets for his shooting club (he has several really expensive guns. All legal mind you) and even he thinks my hobby is excessive (mind you, he also has no illusions about his hobby. He just thinks we both made bad choices).

Again dude. Those are MANLY things. That is why people will not get funny looks. No matter how much they spend. We are geeks and nerds playing with little toys. It doesn't matter the cost. It can be GW toys or Dollar store toy soldiers. WE ARE PLAYING WITH TOY SOLDIERS. That is why we get funny looks. Again, I don't get them.

As my old teacher said, if you feel the need to justify it, then there's already something inherently wrong.

I am not justifying anything. It seems you are. I am a geek. I am not smart enough to be a nerd, not cool enough for people to hang around me. Maybe not a geek but a dork then. I don't care what I am labeled. Still I don't care what people think when I buy my plastic toy soldiers. It doesn't bother me, and I don't have to justify anything.

I personally make no attempt at hiding the fact that this is an excessively expensive hobby for me, which is why I do wish things will change. Not just so it would hurt less on my wallet, but also to get more friends playing. Currently the only reason I can't get more friends into it is cost because, again, for 32 bucks a person we can all get netrunner and play together. Or 25 bucks for Catan. If I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.

I agree. Yes it's expensive for us. Yes we would wish it was cheaper so other can get into it. It sucks it's not. What I don't understand is, where are you getting this "funny looks" thing? While you make no attempt at hiding that it's expensive, there is something why you feel you have to hide it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:

Davor wrote:
A lot of people pay for sex. That is what 30 seconds of pleasure?

Then you have my wife, goes to bingo for what 2-3 hours and then most times looses.

This is probably the best response so far imo. This was somewhat enlightening!

I read that sequence very differently from you, and didn't want to comment on it, but as you broke the ice...

Sex is a mere "30 seconds of pleasure"?

I think I understand why his wife goes out to "bingo" for 2-3 hours at a time.

LMFAO, I got myself into that one. I am sure you knew what I meant though.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's the whole "it's my money and I don't care" mentality that enables GW's price gouging.

GW is not price gouging. Price gouging refers to taking advantage of temporary scarcity to significantly increase the price on a must-buy item. For example, selling bottled water at 10x the normal price after a natural disaster knocks out the water supply is price gouging. When there's no water available from any other source people have to pay whatever you demand because the alternative is death. It is NOT price gouging to sell an item at a higher cost than some of your customers want to pay for it, or to sell an item at a price that some people think is "unfair". And given the fact that GW sells toys, which are clearly luxury products and not an item you could ever be forced to buy regardless of the price, it is impossible for them to be guilty of price gouging.

So raising the price because the Pound and American Dollar was stronger than the Canadian dollar was weak, then proceed to "forget" about that price hike literally a year down the road because the Pound went down again just to keep charging the higher prices is not "gouging"? Same goes for Australian and New Zealand prices. Not to mention if you want to play GW's game, you pretty much have to use GW models. We get enough people here complaining about proxies as is. I never see DnD players get so uppidy about which orcs and dragons you use, but heavens forbid you use a third party Forge World Lookalike in a 30k game.

Also Davor, the moment you started challenging my manhood and level of nerdness in a discussion about pricing and barrier of entry is when there can be no more meaningful dialogue.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
So raising the price because the Pound and American Dollar was stronger than the Canadian dollar was weak, then proceed to "forget" about that price hike literally a year down the road because the Pound went down again just to keep charging the higher prices is not "gouging"? Same goes for Australian and New Zealand prices. Not to mention if you want to play GW's game, you pretty much have to use GW models. We get enough people here complaining about proxies as is. I never see DnD players get so uppidy about which orcs and dragons you use, but heavens forbid you use a third party Forge World Lookalike in a 30k game.

No it's not gouging. You don't need to buy GW models(yes not even to play GW games) so they aren't raising price on what you MUST buy. Ergo not gouging.

They are too expensive, you can simply buy something else. And yes still be able to play GW games. Well except GW stores but who cares. Those aren't only places you can play.

Then I will gleefully use my metal 20 dollar dreadnoughts as contemptors and my coffee tin as a Spartan and scoff at anyone who thinks I should get forge world models for my 30k army for not understanding what "gouge" means

But seriously, you can see the gouging because similar models within GW's own range have different values. Compare a vanilla Dreadnought to a Venerable Dreadnought to a Space Wolves Dreadnought. Or the various flavours of space marine characters.

And if anyone says "it's ok because no one uses dreadnoughts!" then there's really no more hope for this hobby.

Nothing wrong with GW prices, I wish they were cheaper but their product so they pick the price. Can't afford it? Think it os not worth it then dont do it.

I like 3d printers but the quailty for the price is not worth it for me so moving on.

GW's prices are what they are, whether they make sense or are "fair" or not. Buy or not, those are the choices. I don't think anybody needs to be upset over it.

In my case, yes, I overbought and have considerably more than a I "need", but still less than I want. Yes, I am (very!) slowly working through my backlog. I blame nobody but myself for those decisions.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
GW's prices are what they are, whether they make sense or are "fair" or not. Buy or not, those are the choices. I don't think anybody needs to be upset over it.

In my case, yes, I overbought and have considerably more than a I "need", but still less than I want. Yes, I am (very!) slowly working through my backlog. I blame nobody but myself for those decisions.

Many of the arguemwnts here point towards a healthy demand, but the supply becoming very limited because of the high prices. If GW did market research they might discover they are pricing themselves out of the market, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, these are toy soldiers after all.

The problem comes because GW could foster growth fairly easily by reducing prices across the board which would spurr growth because that really expensive hobby is now just costly, but not unattainable.

Look at the formula that caused the explosive growth in the early years, readonably costed kits, good quality kits, decent rules. These are the foundations for healthy market growth, which all the competition is currently focusing on with fantastic results.

I love this hobby and I make great money, but I look at kits and say do I really need this? Hell I spend way more buying resale and used stuff simply because I feel that I'm not getting the value I should be.

If GW felt that "high" price was actually hurting them (i.e. reduce pay & reduce bonuses), they could easily do something about it (i.e. reduce prices). That hasn't happened, so GW's production cost reductions and gross margin improvements mean they're not concerned. I look at IKR, WHQ:ST and think GW is doing just fine.

I have more than enough, and I buy almost nothing now, so it doesn't matter that much.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


Also Davor, the moment you started challenging my manhood and level of nerdness in a discussion about pricing and barrier of entry is when there can be no more meaningful dialogue.

I never challenged your manhood, if I did how? I am sorry if I have upset you, it was never my intent. Maybe I guess I thought you were trying to embarrass me and I somehow defended myself. What ever, water under the bridge, I am sorry. But please let me know how I offended so I don't do it again.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
. Not to mention if you want to play GW's game, you pretty much have to use GW models.

That's going to depend on where you play, of course... but I've never encountered any serious resistance to third-party models, so long as they look appropriate and aren't confusing for opponents.


Even most tournaments these days will allow third party models, since the only reason for requiring GW models was to encourage GW prize support... which stopped a decade ago.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If GW felt that "high" price was actually hurting them (i.e. reduce pay & reduce bonuses), they could easily do something about it (i.e. reduce prices). That hasn't happened, so GW's production cost reductions and gross margin improvements mean they're not concerned. I look at IKR, WHQ:ST and think GW is doing just fine.

I have more than enough, and I buy almost nothing now, so it doesn't matter that much.

They can't while profits are dropping, as soon as you lower prices you lower profits which means you can't pay dividends which means stock get sold which means stock price drops.

Ever increasing prices are covering the fact that sales are in decline.

They don't want to suffer the short term pain necessary to kick sales back into positive numbers.

To be fair, those ever-increasing prices are making some pretty awesome models. Valkyrie. Imperial Knight. End Times. Wraithknight. Huge Scenery.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
To be fair, those ever-increasing prices are making some pretty awesome models. Valkyrie. Imperial Knight. End Times. Wraithknight. Huge Scenery.

Although some people would call those pretty bad.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
So raising the price because the Pound and American Dollar was stronger than the Canadian dollar was weak, then proceed to "forget" about that price hike literally a year down the road because the Pound went down again just to keep charging the higher prices is not "gouging"? Same goes for Australian and New Zealand prices.

No, because as I already pointed out, price gouging is about essential goods and services. If a natural disaster destroys your only source of clean water then you have to buy bottled water or die, even if that water is selling for $1000 a bottle. If GW raises prices for whatever reason and you don't like those prices you're free to stop buying. At no point are you forced to pay the increased price.

Not to mention if you want to play GW's game, you pretty much have to use GW models. We get enough people here complaining about proxies as is. I never see DnD players get so uppidy about which orcs and dragons you use, but heavens forbid you use a third party Forge World Lookalike in a 30k game.

So what? Nobody is forcing you to play GW's games. If the people you're playing with don't like proxies or alternate models then play a different game. GW doesn't owe you cheaper prices just because you really want to have their stuff.

pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
To be fair, those ever-increasing prices are making some pretty awesome models. Valkyrie. Imperial Knight. End Times. Wraithknight. Huge Scenery.

Although some people would call those pretty bad.

Some would tell them to go play another, cheaper game.

I like big models and I can not lie. Them other gamers can't deny.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
But seriously, you can see the gouging because similar models within GW's own range have different values. Compare a vanilla Dreadnought to a Venerable Dreadnought to a Space Wolves Dreadnought. Or the various flavours of space marine characters.

Again, you don't understand what "price gouging" means. It is a term with a very specific meaning, and that meaning is NOT "setting different prices for two models that I think should have the same price".

100% agree. Since I started gaming again in 2007-2008 I have lost 60% of my gaming group. Left 40k because money and time investment is too steep. I have gained zero players in that time. I have met at least half a dozen people who would now be 40k addicts, but will never pay the astronomical prices for what they perceive as toys. The starter boxes seem like good deals to us veterans who know what the retail prices are. Anyone else will still scoff at them. Our group is dying a slow death. While we can always get noobs into D&D or magic, it is dramatically more difficult to get a new 40k gamer. In fact it hasn't happened since the price hike in 2009 when storm ravens jumped from $60 usd to....what is it now? $85 lol. I also used to spend @ least $50-$100 per month for a hobby budget. Now that money just goes in to savings if I don't find a deal. There are loads of new releases since the heldrake came out that I want in my collection...some for my main armies, and I will NEVER pay the asking prices. NEVER. Sure...40k is a cheap hobby compared to underwater exploration, but comparing it to anything but other tabletop mini games is pointless. It should also be stated that many of these tabletop games base their prices off GWs insane price model only slightly cheaper. Someone is paying those prices tho and they are fine with it, otherwise it would have to change. Rumor has it (from local shop owners) that no GW stuff is moving off the shelves they way they used to tho, so maybe GW will get their collective head out of their collective ass and start selling noobs armies again.

hobojebus wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If GW felt that "high" price was actually hurting them (i.e. reduce pay & reduce bonuses), they could easily do something about it (i.e. reduce prices). That hasn't happened, so GW's production cost reductions and gross margin improvements mean they're not concerned. I look at IKR, WHQ:ST and think GW is doing just fine.

I have more than enough, and I buy almost nothing now, so it doesn't matter that much.

They can't while profits are dropping, as soon as you lower prices you lower profits which means you can't pay dividends which means stock get sold which means stock price drops.

Ever increasing prices are covering the fact that sales are in decline.

They don't want to suffer the short term pain necessary to kick sales back into positive numbers.

This is what I don't get. Cutting the price means less profits. How come Walmart makes billions then from selling things cheap? After all cutting the price should mean less profit, so how come Walmart is making millions?That said, a gaming store I know says they can sell stuff at 30% off but sell in huge volumes for profit. So that to me is something like what Walmart does, sell price but in volume.

So you would think cutting prices, would mean more of us buying and buying more product. I guess the thing is, GW doesn't want to sell in volumes. So that is why they sell so expensive. GW use to sell in volumes but they stopped, I wonder how come. First they close down the US production site for minis and paints. Then just did everything in UK, but now some stuff or a lot of stuff in China now. Thing is, I thought when you make stuff in China you make in bulk so you sell in volumes.

I don't know, trying to figure out how GW works or thinks just makes my head spin.

Things are 'expensive'. Warhammer, like many hobbies, has a high entry cost (300-600 dollars), a "monthly" cost (generally 60 dollars, assuming you buy 1-2 boxes a month), and the value is based on how you value it.

a PS4 (400 dollars), + a game a month (60)
1 HQ, 2 Troops, and 1 Elite & rules(~150 + 100 dollars for rules (assuming codex + ebay for rule book)), + 1 box a month (anywhere from 20 to 100+ dollars) + occasional 50 bucks for rule update
1 warcaster, 2 jacks, 1 unit (~100-150 assuming no starter box) + 1 kit a month (anywhere from 20 to 60+ bucks)
1 gaming PC (600-1000+), + a game a month (5-70 dollars)

GWs pricing for things like brushes and paints are high, HOWEVER when compared to other companies, they tend to cost about the same per box model wise, but warhammer involves typically larger armies, as such more money is needed to play said larger games HOWEVER there is no rule forcing you to play large. Additionally, you don't HAVE to use GW brushes and paints, you can always go to a local hobby store, and drop 5-6 bucks per brush, and 1-2 dollars per paint.

Do I think GW is expensive? Yes, about as expensive as warmachine/hordes, magic (when you play competitive), video gaming, and many MANY other hobbies. The only thing that is different is where you hold the value of the hobbies.

Davor wrote:


This is what I don't get. Cutting the price means less profits. How come Walmart makes billions then from selling things cheap? After all cutting the price should mean less profit, so how come Walmart is making millions?That said, a gaming store I know says they can sell stuff at 30% off but sell in huge volumes for profit. So that to me is something like what Walmart does, sell price but in volume.

Walmart makes money because of gakky business practices, and paying dirt to their employees. NOT really a business to aspire to be like

Davor wrote:
How come Walmart makes billions then from selling things cheap? After all cutting the price should mean less profit, so how come Walmart is making millions?

Walmart leverages their immense buying power to buy stuff at significant wholesale discounts, direct from the manufacturers, then retails them for only slightly less than the MSRP, so they can say they are cheaper than their competitors. Walmart pay is low, they use part timers and seasonal staff to avoid paying benefits to it's employees. There are areas where they encourage their employees to seek federal assistance and keep them part time, instead of offering them full time benefited jobs that would lift them out of poverty.

To be honest, picking Walmart is a TERRIBLE example of how to do buissiness.. A quick Google search will find multiple documentaries on how atrocious Walmart is. If you think GW is an evil empire they are nothing in comparison to Walmart.

 Griddlelol wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
To be fair, those ever-increasing prices are making some pretty awesome models. Valkyrie. Imperial Knight. End Times. Wraithknight. Huge Scenery.

Although some people would call those pretty bad.

Some would tell them to go play another, cheaper game.

I did and its been a massive improvement I can get more than one game in a night, no need to stop playing to check rules like always happened with 40k which means zero arguments it's heaven.

It was so much cheaper I actually started several other games and still had money left over to upgrade my pc.

Still spending the same but it's going to several companies instead of GW, I voted with my wallet I urge others too.

Break out of the walled garden.